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Why Thief roaming players. Give people a bad impression. Is it caused by infinite stealth stacking?


Flee.5602

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@"Ubi.4136" said:There are several problems with stealth. Not all of those problems are even thief related.

  1. Stealth should not be random or timed, it should be turn on or turn off, meaning permanent unless combat actions are taken or revealed/damaged.
  2. Players should move slower in stealth, ~60% move speed untraited, 80-85% normal speed if traited (obviously have to add those traits).
  3. Stealth players should always be visible in a radius around you, ~120 maybe. That way you get a fraction of a second for counterplay as you would see them right before attacked. Mounted players would not get the detection radius. No mounted hunting parties looking for slower moving stealthers.
  4. Revealed (all forms, even marked) need removed and replaced with an increased detection radius (maybe 240) if traited (obv. need to add that too).
  5. Removal of reveal means the thief portal needs changed/removed or set to thief only. Due to permanent stealth availability.
  6. Stealth ends when combat starts. Once in combat, the stealther can not restealth (deadeye elite being the only way to stealth in combat, on a single use charge). This requires reworking a lot of things on multiple classes.
  7. Weapon skills require a target to use (including spirit weapons and wells/shades). This prevents spamming marks/aoe's to tag stealthers and remove stealth. Traps would still put the stealther in combat and remove stealth (maybe a specific few). All skills would require line of sight to use. No more rev porting through obstacles or barrage shots over walls. This would also make walls usable for defenders, since now spamming aoe's on walls would give you "no line of sight to target", or "out of range". Siege damage would not remove stealth, except the arrow cart skill.
  8. Very short duration stealth skills are available to classes other than thieves to aid with mass combat, mesmer and engineer for example. Stealth from combo fields would be removed, no other classes would have access to stealth (druid F5 and ranger pets reworked). Kind of like how necro should be the only class with access to fear (like anet told us at launch), but that's for another thread.

This is the short version, and it would go a long way to fixing a lot of other issues, including stealth.

Would you like everyone to wait in line and take turns using a skill?

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The only reason I've ever hated Thief in WvW is ever since they gave them Shadow Portal.

Nothing is more infuriating than a DE is endlessly Stealthed in inner keep only to open a free path into the keep minutes later for a easy cap without defenders even realising they were around.

Even if yu realise there is a DE in the keep, they are extremely difficult to catch because of all their stealth applications and 2 charges of revealed removal.

Yu can literally blanket the entire inner with Reveal skills and not find the DE.

This is why these days it's pretty much a MUST to slot and activate Radar upon capping a Keep, just for the primary reason of outting pest like DEs still hiding.

And doing so prevents other useful anti siege tactics to be slotted in its place.

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Why thieves are hated?

1-Dagger/pistol2-Deadeye3- Sword/dagger4- Plethora of stunbreaks, steal acting as a stunbreak5- Broken mobility6- Stealth camping7-Abusive behavior of players using thief8- Griefing class design

Really the reasons why people hate thieves are too numerous to count, nobody would miss thief if it would get deleted tomorrow from the game...nobody except those playing it

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@Yasai.3549 said:The only reason I've ever hated Thief in WvW is ever since they gave them Shadow Portal.

Nothing is more infuriating than a DE is endlessly Stealthed in inner keep only to open a free path into the keep minutes later for a easy cap without defenders even realising they were around.

Even if yu realise there is a DE in the keep, they are extremely difficult to catch because of all their stealth applications and 2 charges of revealed removal.

Yu can literally blanket the entire inner with Reveal skills and not find the DE.

This is why these days it's pretty much a MUST to slot and activate Radar upon capping a Keep, just for the primary reason of outting pest like DEs still hiding.

And doing so prevents other useful anti siege tactics to be slotted in its place.

What? Upon capping a keep anyone inside on the other team automatically gets five minutes of Marked which prevents stealth longer than 2 seconds or the stealthed person is revealed and marked on the map. You don’t need to blanket the keep with anything. Further, you can’t slot watch tower in keeps. Further, you can’t slot any tactics for a period of time after capturing. Literally everything you wrote doesn’t work that way in WvW.

And, I have never seen a DE successfully portal people inside to stealth cap any keep that has, literally, anyone keeping an eye on it. It’s much easier to just bring a group and quickly reopen the walls to get the group back inside after a failed capture attempt. It’s a waste of time strategy for everyone involved.

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@Flee.5602 its just thiefs doing their job. if i get klilled by a thief, he probably outplayed / countered my defensive skills.

I dont see any wrong in that... but stealth needs improvements positively and a trade off, i would mostly needs some fixes.

on second note stealth works as it is due game nature everyhing is mostly aoe spam.

Due the way m8 be coded, impact on server if changed, IMO alot of the game needs to change or the new future stuff needs to set up stable before any touch on stealth happens.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:Why thieves are hated?

1-Dagger/pistol2-Deadeye3- Sword/dagger4- Plethora of stunbreaks, steal acting as a stunbreak5- Broken mobility6- Stealth camping7-Abusive behavior of players using thief8- Griefing class design

Really the reasons why people hate thieves are too numerous to count, nobody would miss thief if it would get deleted tomorrow from the game...nobody except those playing it

Lmao yes delete it, always a good idea especially given the game already very low pvp population so losing a large sum more would be so very healthy for the game.Oh look another classes ur calling out as op, what a surprise :).

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@Junkpile.7439 said:Dodge and evade spam. It's so annoying that one class doesn't even need to think when to use dodge. Just spam it whole time.

Thre staff acro builds? yead but needs game is so much based in aoe spam red rings all over the floor, that classes need to have that gimmick or be that strong :\It was the way Anet tough daredevil could be balanced against all the spam.

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the easy answer about "How to deal with thieves in wvw": ignore them. they are there for the cheap kills, if you walk with your group and stay around tag, thieves cannot engage you, unless ur not capable of pulling your heals and the rest of your people sleeps to. 95% ends with 2 downed daredevils hatemailing someone in the squad.

like during the last like 3000 kills i maybe if even died to one thief that caught me afking on warclaw. (demount daze and no armor at all, warclaw is such trash really.)

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@"Heibi.4251" said:Yep my stealth/thief adjustments that I have always said need to be implemented are:

  1. When stealhted you must move at walk speed in order to be "stealthy".
  2. No spiking from stealth.
  3. No stealthing while in combat. Blinding is one thing but going invis is completely different.
  4. Longer cooldowns on stealth - much longer.
  5. Once revealed you stay revealed until timer is gone - i.e. Target Painters - no traiting to insta-re-stealth and ignore certain mechanics.
  6. Portal should be changed to thief only - period. The current meta is completely unbalanced. Also the timing needs to be adjusted. It should be just like the mesmer portal timing. Right now a thief can drop the portal and run away for almost a minute then port back and drop another immediately.
  7. While in keeps that have just flipped you cannot stealth. Currently you can stealth and your dot vanishes and you are NOT MARKED. And with the ridiculous stealth stacking you can stay stealthed for a very long time - nearly permanent(with tiny visible windows.)

You could have just said "I want stealth to be completely unusable and so much of a troll pick its worth reporting", and you wouldve saved a lot of space there.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Heibi.4251" said:Yep my stealth/thief adjustments that I have always said need to be implemented are:
  1. When stealhted you must move at walk speed in order to be "stealthy".
  2. No spiking from stealth.
  3. No stealthing while in combat. Blinding is one thing but going invis is completely different.
  4. Longer cooldowns on stealth - much longer.
  5. Once revealed you stay revealed until timer is gone - i.e. Target Painters - no traiting to insta-re-stealth and ignore certain mechanics.
  6. Portal should be changed to thief only - period. The current meta is completely unbalanced. Also the timing needs to be adjusted. It should be just like the mesmer portal timing. Right now a thief can drop the portal and run away for almost a minute then port back and drop another immediately.
  7. While in keeps that have just flipped you cannot stealth. Currently you can stealth and your dot vanishes and you are NOT MARKED. And with the ridiculous stealth stacking you can stay stealthed for a very long time - nearly permanent(with tiny visible windows.)

You could have just said "I want stealth to be completely unusable and so much of a troll pick its worth reporting", and you wouldve saved a lot of space there.

@Heibi.4251 that goes all against to what this game classes design goes for, thief is as it is cause its a way to balance agains the aoe/cleave spam, woudl agree with u if this game skills were more towards 1 on 1.. but it isnt.

IF theres changes in future i would like to see some skills/traits usable or more efective only on stealth like steal, with diminuishing return using them out of stealth.That would make the class slightly more organized and force players to be more tactical.

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@Sleepwalker.1398 said:I just find it so funny that so many are playing Daredevil with 3 dodges and yet mirage has to relay on energy sigils.

Mirage never should have tied ambushes to dodge, period. Ambushes should have replaced the shatter mechanics for F1 and F2.

The rest of it is the massive trolling against the class by a large group of people that can't learn to play.

And if they removed stealth from thieves, they better get a LOT more dodges/evade skills, because stealth is a large part of their defense kit. Their armor is slightly tougher paper and hit points are down there with Eles.

Honestly, at this point I am so tired of the whining and crying and people's instability to learn to play or tab-target or stunbreak or condi cleanse, that I think this is what we should do:

  1. Remove Stealth entirely. All skills that applied stealth applies blind to enemies in 360 units.
  2. Condense all the boons down to 1 boon - AWESOME! And it just gives all the crap at once.
  3. Condense all the conditions down to 1 condition - SUCK! and it just gives all the crap but blind at once.
  4. Remove all the Attributes. Reduce them down to HIT, SOAK, AND HP. Done! Super easy for the blueberries to get.

There you all go, can you all learn to play now? Such build variety, very wow!

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@Mokk.2397 said:Most thieves are just lousy players because they use stealth as a crutch. Throw a target painter on them and they just run away and if they don't they die fast because they don't know how to fight without stealth.

It’s my new favorite past time during roaming tbh. I notice someone target painted me and then I destroy them anyway because my build isn’t designed around long duration stealth.

But to be fair, if you run a stealth based build for defense and the enemy uses an auto reveal item it is completely legitimate to retreat until the Mark timer is up. If a item is fair to use against steathing opponents then mobility and retreat are perfectly acceptable counterplay in my eyes. You call stealth a crutch but it’s part of the basic class design for avoiding damage.

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Not to derail the thread, but this seems like a good opportunity to ask. So I came back a few weeks ago from a 5yr break and obviously have no clue how to fight half the new builds, barring the ones that barely changed since HoT. That being said, as a power warrior, how would I deal with DEs who run near perma stealth builds with rifle? Right now I mostly just roam to get more experience fighting new builds but I see a reaaaally high amount of Rifle DEs, sometimes running in groups of 2-3, that obviously never stick around to duel after the obvious gank. S/D and D/P are builds I've fought a lot in the past but their playstyles still revolve around melee so I can punish them., and unlike rifle DEs many of them commit to fights they begin (rather than pop stealth when they get under 40% and just leave). Any tips appreciated.

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@LetoII.3782 said:If they're so overpowered why are there so few left playing?

Must be an honor thing.

Not an honor thing to me. Maybe for most thieves as they find great honor in using Stealth as an advantage for success.I play my DE not for honor. I play it cause i have no choice but to abuse the stealth plus high mobilities and of course high dps. In short its not high risk high reward class if you play it more. Its the opposite.I love playing Necro in every mmos but I'm forced by Anet to play thieves due to its mechanics.O trust me we are around mostly unseen ofc lol. Depends of which servers they are on and time.

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@Rekt.5360 said:Not to derail the thread, but this seems like a good opportunity to ask. So I came back a few weeks ago from a 5yr break and obviously have no clue how to fight half the new builds, barring the ones that barely changed since HoT. That being said, as a power warrior, how would I deal with DEs who run near perma stealth builds with rifle? Right now I mostly just roam to get more experience fighting new builds but I see a reaaaally high amount of Rifle DEs, sometimes running in groups of 2-3, that obviously never stick around to duel after the obvious gank. S/D and D/P are builds I've fought a lot in the past but their playstyles still revolve around melee so I can punish them., and unlike rifle DEs many of them commit to fights they begin (rather than pop stealth when they get under 40% and just leave). Any tips appreciated.

Rifle Warrior is effective. If they are permastealth kite them out to force them to chase.

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@Jabronee.9465 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If they're so overpowered why are there so few left playing?

Must be an honor thing.

Not an honor thing to me. Maybe for most thieves as they find great honor in using Stealth as an advantage for success.I play my DE not for honor. I play it cause i have no choice but to abuse the stealth plus high mobilities and of course high dps. In short its not high risk high reward class if you play it more. Its the opposite.I love playing Necro in every mmos but I'm forced by Anet to play thieves due to its mechanics.O trust me they are around mostly unseen ofc lol. Depends of which servers they are on and time.

Man.. that stinks.

I am soo glad Anet let’s me choose which class I get to play.

Here’s hoping they finally allow you to play a class you like.

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@Jabronee.9465 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If they're so overpowered why are there so few left playing?

Must be an honor thing.

Not an honor thing to me. Maybe for most thieves as they find great honor in using Stealth as an advantage for success.I play my DE not for honor. I play it cause i have no choice but to abuse the stealth plus high mobilities and of course high dps. In short its not high risk high reward class if you play it more. Its the opposite.I love playing Necro in every mmos but I'm forced by Anet to play thieves due to its mechanics.O trust me we are around mostly unseen ofc lol. Depends of which servers they are on and time.

I dual main reaper and thief. Necro is by far the stronger class right now for anything outside of PvE.

There are very few thieves I lose to on reaper, and when I do, it's usually due to an incredibly low starting LF and because they're just better players. Necro has access to shadowsteps as well and Holts put out some great information for necro on building to utterly destroy most roaming classes/specs. I've taught more than a handful of people how to win reaper vs thief even when Daredevil was considered OP and before Reaper's damage was buffed to make the class much easier to kill people with.

I'm going to be very blunt right now and say that in most instances as of today, necro vs thief is a matchup where the win is determined more heavily by the better player at their respective class moreso than build or class than ever before. A lot of times, the people complaining are just a lot worse than they believe.

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@Jabronee.9465 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If they're so overpowered why are there so few left playing?

Must be an honor thing.

Not an honor thing to me. Maybe for most thieves as they find great honor in using Stealth as an advantage for success.I play my DE not for honor. I play it cause i have no choice but to abuse the stealth plus high mobilities and of course high dps. In short its not high risk high reward class if you play it more. Its the opposite.I love playing Necro in every mmos but I'm forced by Anet to play thieves due to its mechanics.O trust me we are around mostly unseen ofc lol. Depends of which servers they are on and time.

Pfft I meant all those people who know how overpowered thief is but choose to make poor, weak Necro variants the most played class in WvW.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If they're so overpowered why are there so few left playing?

Must be an honor thing.

Not an honor thing to me. Maybe for most thieves as they find great honor in using Stealth as an advantage for success.I play my DE not for honor. I play it cause i have no choice but to abuse the stealth plus high mobilities and of course high dps. In short its not high risk high reward class if you play it more. Its the opposite.I love playing Necro in every mmos but I'm forced by Anet to play thieves due to its mechanics.O trust me we are around mostly unseen ofc lol. Depends of which servers they are on and time.

I dual main reaper and thief. Necro is by far the stronger class right now for anything outside of PvE.

There are very few thieves I lose to on reaper, and when I do, it's usually due to an incredibly low starting LF and because they're just better players. Necro has access to shadowsteps as well and Holts put out some great information for necro on building to utterly destroy most roaming classes/specs. I've taught more than a handful of people how to win reaper vs thief even when Daredevil was considered OP and before Reaper's damage was buffed to make the class much easier to kill people with.

I'm going to be very blunt right now and say that in most instances as of today, necro vs thief is a matchup where the win is determined more heavily by the better player at their respective class moreso than build or class than ever before. A lot of times, the people complaining are just a lot worse than they believe.

I guess those thieves you mentioned in general are those who dont disengage when losing to a core necro/reaper. Or its pvp where point capping is the deal. Smart wvw thieves will disengage and come back unseen. Rinse and repeat. Thats how we thieves play wvw fyi. And scourge portal and reapers death charge and pulls can catch a thief? lol I have nothing else to say if you believe so.

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