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Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.


aaron.7850

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Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

How can necros and Burn Guards both do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

And... How much did each necro and each Burn guard do?

Quite simply if the Zerg is comprised of 40 players, 30 of which are burn guards and necros, then ‘80% of the total damage’ would actually be low.

Considering that tempests and scrappers are more support.

I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

I won’t be quite as rude as the poster above, but if there are rangers and thief’s in the group, likely it wasn’t a comped group, nor were they beneficial as most are performing the role they were intended to: single target focus.

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

Unfortunately this last paragraph just screams: I am new to this mode and you shouldn’t listen to what I am saying.

For 7+ years, necro has been the primary DPS class in Zergs. Guard has always topped the support role which, they are more efficient at that then the DPS that you saw.

Ele has fluctuated but, minus some solid glass staff players, has been viewed as a little AOE and general heal.

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@Strider Pj.2193 said:Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

How can necros and Burn Guards
both
do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

(snip)

Never heard about overperforming ??

:dizzy: sorry could not resist.

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@enkidu.5937 said:What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief. WarclawFixed it for you.What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

To be serious this is all true, I play a DH, a Reaper, and everything Warrior. There is tremendous value in being able to pick out the weak spot in the zerg, dodge in on Warclaw, down people/finish downs with Battle Maul, and then lay your own AoEs down before blowing your CDs to get out and back to the backline to remount for the next dive. If you're more of a ranged type, then cycle through the targets and find problem enemies like Scrappers, FBs, or Scourges and lay down your dps on them or if you have a pull, then pull them into your own zerg.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.You've never actually played dire/trailblazer, huh?

Because thats what power builds hit on them. Other attacks can hit for 7-9k. Prepatch I saw up to around 13-15k damage against 3.5k armor, but granted that has been scaled back. Most of the damage mitigation comes from boons.

Also if you cant mitigate vs condition damage... how the flipping fuck can you "semi-build to hard counter" them???

See previous note on hypocricy.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Ok, not going to dispute whether ARC can be helpful or not. However, your post is chalk full of logical inaccuracies.

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

How can necros and Burn Guards
both
do ‘close to 80% of the damage EACH?

(snip)

Never heard about overperforming ??

:dizzy: sorry could not resist.

?. Nicely done

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Got no cleanse? RIP. Power damage, if you get hit lets say 4k you can dodge the 2nd and 3rd attack, but with condi if you got no cleanse, welp, you're gonna eat 3x 4k (if 3s duration, but it's usually waaaaay longer) and there's nothing you can do about it.

That is the thing though, condo spam only works
if
you have no condi cleanse. In zerg fighting (which is the example I'll use here since that seems to be what op is referring to) you should always have condi cleanses. By your logic, if you have no healers, then you die, "power dmg op lmao". Few other things, coordinated bombs generate downs instantly, 5-6 revs using just phase smash will instantly down anyone who gets pulled. Also, immob/cc spam is a thing, boon corrupt stab into fear, and running out of dodges (yes, as it turns out that happens a lot and ppl still have stuff to hit you with) will all kill you and power does it a lot quicker than condi. Doesn't really matter to me if you can apply a 10k burn tick, condis literally take a second to tick after they're applied which is more than enough time for my zerg to down and then stomp you, and then they just hit one button and poof, the condi is gone. The only equivalent counter power has is ageis, but fb's can only pump out so much while literally at least 3 classes in each party has some sort of group condi cleanse.

This is much different of course in roaming where I would say condi is better, but since op seems to be talking about zerging I'll keep the discussion there.

The only equivalent counter power has is ageis...Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.Where as for condi, you got what... cleanse, transfer (not all) and resistance? Once it's on you, it's there until you cleanse or transfer or it duration ends.

The problem in zergs is that conditions are spewed around like it's nothing... cleanse 5? Have 5 more. And it's not the damaging conditions that actually kill you, it's the soft cc ones, when you already cleansed 10+ off of you but you're still stuck with chill, cripple or immo.There are too many skills that do power dmg + dish out 2-3 conditions, and a lot of them are even AOE on fairly low cds.

I have absolutely ZERO respect for anyone running a condition build in 2020. And condi roamers get a balista and their bodies are used as a jump rope.And if I take 3k damage from an autoattack, I just get hit by another 3k right after that. And after that? 3k more. Because it's just autoattack. It cost nothing. It hits instant.

It would also be embarrasingly hypocritical of you if you say that you also kill the people running condition builds.

If you get hit 3k by an autoattack then you're running glass and not dodging, which is fine. If you run glass or max toughness, condi will tick the same, where as power will hit like a wet noodle on max toughness build. That's the problem. You can mitigate power damage through stats, but you can't do that vs condition dmg. And what do most condi spammers use? Dire and trailblazer, wow.

The only reason I kill condi builds is cause I'm semi-built to hard counter them so they can f-ck right off back where they came from, which is pve.You've never actually played dire/trailblazer, huh?

Because thats what power builds hit on them. Other attacks can hit for 7-9k. Prepatch I saw up to around 13-15k damage against 3.5k armor, but granted that has been scaled back. Most of the damage mitigation comes from boons.

Also if you cant mitigate vs condition damage...
how the flipping kitten can you "semi-build to hard counter" them
???

See previous note on hypocricy.

You're pulling these numbers straight out of your a ss.You can mitigate condi, not saying you can't, but one has to build for it. As for condi bunkers mitigating power dmg, you don't really have to sacrifice that much, if anything.

I played dire/tb, and it's sickening. Probably one of the most disgusting ways to play this game apart from perma stealth.

I'd love to see 3k auto attacks vs 3500 armor on non pure glass, actually even pure glass doesn't hit that much, maybe thief or a 25 might stack lb sic em ranger or rev but even that is questionable and situational.

You claim hypocricy, I claim straight up lies from your end to satisfy your argument.

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What is this thread about again? I'm unsure of the point OP is trying to make and the rest of the discussion seems to ramble off. WvW meta isn't only about damage and there are other stats provided by arcdps that regularly get used (i.e. boon strips and condi cleanses). As for balance, what kind of balance are you looking for? Why does one need arcdps to learn that there's always some sort of BIS/META (literally "most effective tactics available") in games?

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from attacks hitting you.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:I'd love to see 3k auto attacks vs 3500 armor on non pure glass, actually even pure glass doesn't hit that much, maybe thief or a 25 might stack lb sic em ranger or rev but even that is questionable and situational.So uuuuuh... you're saying its very much possible for several common classes running glass? I was recently hit for 8411 damage on my dire/trailblazer from a vault and that skill has a base of just 1430 damage against 3500 armor at 2500 power (1100x2500x1.82/3500). The rest is all buffs and multipliers. Though I must admit, my build only has around 3200 armor (no toughness runes). If you can hit for 5x base, an AA for 600 can hit for 3k (such as thief 3rd dagger AA at 2500 power with nearly 700 damage). Pretty sure things like rangers and warriors etc far exceed that base damage with similar multipliers.

But granted I'm pretty bad at math so might be wrong. Maybe there isnt any AA that can hit for 3k. Someone else can do max dmg calcs if they want to correct it.

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@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Scourge (assuming this is what you mean by necro) doesn't even do top damage in groups who know how to play their classes. I play full berserker Scourge and I'm often outdps'd by Heralds, weavers, dragonhunters, and even base burn guards. Scourges are there to help spike and facilitate everyone else's damage through corrupts. It's nice you did a little one-day experiment, but many people have been using arcDPS this whole time and can confirm what I'm saying. One-day test on one server probably with many of the same players does not say much.

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

Why do you hate damage meters and all they represent? It is a very useful tool. For instance, I'm sure you had always heard that dps mesmer, dps ranger, dps thief are bad in zergs. You finally get to see first-hand with this tool why people say that. It isn't because people hate those classes - it's because they don't work as well. To answer your question simply: you shouldn't bring dps mesmer, ranger, engi, (Daredevil is ok if you really know what you're doing and it isn't too blobby). What you saw is that AoE skills, which can't be reflected and hit more people, are better than single target or projectile skills. It's the inherent nature of the game mode. You are going against lots of people so naturally AoE is going to be very good. It's not something that can be balanced unless those other classes have access to as much AoE. I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced, but this inherent difference between AoE and other skills cannot be easily overcome without ruining balance in other parts of the game. If they buff single target and projectiles, then suddenly certain classes become even more OP at roaming than they already are.

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

So yes, this is why squads use a composition and ask for meta classes - it works.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:So? Now put one of those top zerg dpsers against the lowest dps roamer in the same zerg and the roamer will probably still kill him.

Combat isnt all about dps. Which is evident in meta zergs as well, since they dont bring all glass cannon dps. If you dont want any support utility in the zerg thats fine but most zergs win because of it and proper movement, not the dps.

So much this!Dps is irrelevant and ARCdps isn't doing anyone any favors in WvW. You get a bunch of splash damage dps that ramps your meter but the meter doesn't tell you if the damage you dealt actually did something meaningful of got overhealed by support for no gain. Concentrated burst and above all infight positioning and boon utilization is where it's at.

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@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from
attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

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Wow this devolved quickly.

All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt. This... is a concern for people getting into WvW. Players have their mains, and without a meaningful impact for their profession to have, a player can get turned off from WvW.

Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam. The mortar kit is the only weapon that has good range, but the long arc on each of the shells makes it nigh unuseable in a fight. Another profession I've wanted to bring in is the thief, but I don't for very similar reasons. My options on thief are to use scorpion wire, or to spam preparations. The rifle is too immobile for zerg combat, and it only hits one enemy.

You get the idea. Similar things can be said for the mesmer and the warrior. Having one or two good skills for the zerg doesn't cut it. You need to be able to pose an offensive threat while also providing meaningful utility. Otherwise, you'll lose to the group that IS running the profession that has offense + utility.

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from
attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

Ok, but that's like saying you can't dodge burst damage after it hits you and you're lying there dead. :D

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@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from
attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

You are really stubborn one, aren't you? ;-)

Then make sure you have enough Vitality to increase your HP and that way have enough time between your cleanses. Honestly what do you expect?

Conditions are there for everybody, even Power builds, so why do continue this mantra? Do you think it is much better to get one-shot by damage from "pure" Power builds? Those glasscanon builds aren't useful any more as that would be suicide to use a build that only make use of Berserker attributes in WvW without any boost to concentration (for boon duration) or any vitality/toughness added above base attribute for profession. Even during HoT expansion for PvE content people started to move over to quad attributes as those gave more time to react, to use cleanse or reduce those first hits and to use duration (for both boon or condition duration).

Try to do bounties in PoF and you will see how mobile those NPCs actually have become, not to forget that they also have random defensive and offensive skill that might reflect all projectile damage. In WvW we have also Dragonbanner, so what are you actually suggesting?

In Zerg or any larger groups then 2 person there will be synergies that will accumulate damage, cleanses and movement (from boons and through portals among other). You also seem to only concentrate about single players cleanse. Light fields do also provide AoE cleanse. Regeneration (counter) to poison, bleed damage from those condition types. Also Ratialiation if it is high enough in regen.

Condition needs time to build up in stack (and some condition today will only build up in duration; same if you look for boons where some can only build up to 5 stacks and not in intensity - not in the amount of damage each tick can have). If you have access to Blind (condition) then you will block some hits as misses so it work on the same level as Aegis which also only block one hit and then need to refresh.

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@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

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@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

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