Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Wasn't episode 1&2 on the Norn side?

[hugo.4705]

I think the saga is more charr focused. The logo, red and blue, means to me the transformation of blood legion (red) into frost legion (blue). There are norns, but because it's shiverpeaks. Even when we were in bjora we kept saying "have to find almorra, we have to stop bangar...." and ton of jormag speech, but since it's linked to bangar now.. If we speak of maps, 0 and 3 are charr, 1 and 2 norn.

[AgentMoore.9453]

I think they've been trying to give both cultures attention, they're just real bad at it.

For example, people like to say HoT was the "Sylvari" expansion, but ask the cabbage community about it and they'll roll out the long list of plotholes, unanswered questions, and cut content that left gaps in the storytelling because deadlines had to be met. In truth, most of the game's story is about Humans running around ruining things and occasionally a dragon flies overhead and everyone points at it.

Asura are used as plot devices, Norn are said to be deeply spiritual but come off as drunken stereotypes and caricatures, Charr get lots of nuance and attention (which I guess we should grant them since they were so prevalent in the first game), and Sylvari are comic relief. Occasionally, the writing team manages a story that kicks your teeth in and knocks the wind out of you, but that's the exception and not the rule.

The way they handle the various cultures during this season is shaping up to be no different than how they've done it in the past: Hand-waved, and kinda lackluster compared to whatever you were hoping for.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"AgentMoore.9453" said:For example, people like to say HoT was the "Sylvari" expansion, but ask the cabbage community about it and they'll roll out the long list of plotholes, unanswered questions, and cut content that left gaps in the storytelling because deadlines had to be met. In truth, most of the game's story is about Humans running around ruining things and occasionally a dragon flies overhead and everyone points at it.What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.Humans running around ruining thingsExcept humans are behind very little in the game.Its mostly dragon minions, or Scarlet.Asura are used as plot devices,All the races have been plot devices throughout the story at one point or another.and Sylvari are comic relief.Since when was/has Trahearne, Caithe, or the Pale Tree, been comic relief? The most funny Sylvari is Canach, and hes just good at being sarcastic, and isn't a comic relief either.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

Off the top of my head, there was also supposed to be something going into more detail regarding the Nightmare Court and how they interacted with Mordremoth, which also got cut pretty much entirely apart from Faolain's appearance and Chrysanthea showing up in Dragon's Stand.

[HotDelirium.7984]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Episodes 1 and 2 were purely norn focused...Episodes 0 and 3 were primarily charr focused...

I'd say it was fairly even so far.

Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.

[HotDelirium.7984]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:Wasn't episode 1&2 on the Norn side?

I think the discrepancy is not so much in it being Norn focused but having very little Norn involved. There are some Vigil soldiers and a sprinkle of Norn fighters but that's it. The Charr legions are very involved with the releases so far while the Norn lodges aren't at all (besides the appearences of the Spirits). I do hope they get more involved since Jormag was their number one enemy for so long.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@draxynnic.3719 said:Off the top of my head, there was also supposed to be something going into more detail regarding the Nightmare Court and how they interacted with Mordremoth, which also got cut pretty much entirely apart from Faolain's appearance and Chrysanthea showing up in Dragon's Stand.Yeah, the cut 4th lane i mentioned earlier.

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.The events of episode 1 and 2 were rather quick, and didn't leave much time for word to get out, or for people from all the way down in Hoelbrak to get involved. And the Norn have no reason to get involved in a Charr civil war either.

Also, the Norn don't have an army, they have hunting parties. The Norn lack any sort of organized civilization, and are basically a species of loners. This is part of the reason why the Spirits of the Wild led them south in the first place, because they were trying to take on Jormag like 5 at a time, and it wasn't working out, and they were getting themselves killed off as a species. Even with the founding of Hoelbrak as an unusually concentrated center for the Norn, they still largely remain a species of loners who pride themselves on focusing on the individual, rather then any sort of community effort.

After Barham cracked Jormag's tooth we didn't see the Norn, as a species, organize some giant fighting force to to confront Jormag, they were perfectly fine with letting Braham and his small group do it themselves, because that is how the Norn have always operated. If anything they WOULDN'T get involved because its up to Braham to forge his own legend, and its up to him to slay Jormag because hes the one who cracked the tooth. Having some large Norn army show up would be completely counter to everything established previously about Norn culture. Leaving most of it up to Braham and his hunting party(Dragon's Watch) is the most Norn thing they could do.

Assuming Anet keeps the "three lane" Elder Dragon fight they used for both Mord and Kralk I can see it as lane 1 being Norn/Kodan, lane 2 being Charr Legions, and lane 3 being the Crystal Bloom. Assuming episodes 5 and 6 don't do something like take us further into the Woodland Cascades, and we befriend the Centaurs or something.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"AgentMoore.9453" said:Norn are said to be deeply spiritual but come off as drunken stereotypes and caricatures,

People love to act as if the Norn were changed from GW1. The truth is, it's just we finally see what their normal, non-fighting life is like.

Yes they party, yes they typically love having a good keg to drink from. But people turn around and assume that is all there is to Norn. They love to talk about how GW2 doesn't treat Norn right yet don't even understand the Norn. "Eir isn't a Norn because they are individualistic!/Any norn who joins a guild or faction isn't really Norn!" yet... Norn embrace choosing your own path. Some Norn work with others to achieve a goal (See, WOLF.) Others choose to do things alone. Others rally others under their leadership and even lead armies. (Eir with her guild, PC Norn). They complain about Braham rebelling yet don't understand that He's a young Norn with very little adventuring experience under his belt, who found a scroll that can empower Eir's bow to crack Jormag's tooth, and make his (and her) legend immortal for all time. And then we told him to stop and wait, to let the chance go. OF COURSE he turned against us.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:The events of episode 1 and 2 were rather quick, and didn't leave much time for word to get out, or for people from all the way down in Hoelbrak to get involved. And the Norn have no reason to get involved in a Charr civil war either.

Also, the Norn don't have an army, they have hunting parties. The Norn lack any sort of organized civilization, and are basically a species of loners. This is part of the reason why the Spirits of the Wild led them south in the first place, because they were trying to take on Jormag like 5 at a time, and it wasn't working out, and they were getting themselves killed off as a species. Even with the founding of Hoelbrak as an unusually concentrated center for the Norn, they still largely remain a species of loners who pride themselves on focusing on the individual, rather then any sort of community effort.

After Barham cracked Jormag's tooth we didn't see the Norn, as a species, organize some giant fighting force to to confront Jormag, they were perfectly fine with letting Braham and his small group do it themselves, because that is how the Norn have always operated. If anything they WOULDN'T get involved because its up to Braham to forge his own legend, and its up to him to slay Jormag because hes the one who cracked the tooth. Having some large Norn army show up would be completely counter to everything established previously about Norn culture. Leaving most of it up to Braham and his hunting party(Dragon's Watch) is the most Norn thing they could do.

Norn hear that every male who went up to Jora's Keep turned to Svanir and the rest were slaughtered, including the Raven Shamans maintaining the vault there. Most would probably hold off charging North since it's clearly a deathtrap. Norn are brave and bold, but the majority of them are smart. Hell, most have things going on down south. Heck, the fact Braham lead a force up there, then disappeared after Jormag went dormant may have caused most people to just go "eh, why go up north. He failed."

Second part is huge and people don't understand this. Knut even outright states all he can do at the World Summit is recommend Norn hunters/warriors go join the Pact effort as it'll probably be glorious. His authority doesn't go an inch past the borders of Hoelbrek, besides what his reputation may hold for various groups. Hell, Hoelbrek is explicitly not considered a City by the norn, merely the biggest, most complex homestead. Hoelbrek is the homestead of Knut, not the capital city of a Norn nation.

As for Braham, he did rally a group and marched north. Guess what? Every single one of them are dead now, turned to Svanir (then killed), or slaughtered at Jora's Keep. The ones who probably bought into the legend the most are all likely dead or MIA now. And as Jhavi told us (at least of the Norn in the farther north regions) they turned to hating Braham because he simply left after Jormag went to sleep again.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

• Malyck (cut)
• Nightmare Court's view on Mordremoth (mostly cut and bugged out of the Prisoners of the Dragon - notice the empty cells? They're meant to have Nightmare Courtiers according to Matthew Medina)
• How the Pale Tree was purified (briefly mentioned in the Complete Art of Guild Wars)
• The seed cave Ronan found, and the "plant monsters" within
• The origin of Dream and Nightmare and why they both fight the Elder Dragons and even Mordremoth (the latter, at least, for the Dream)
• Canach and sylvari being assaulted in concrete cities (per the S2 teaser)
• How sylvari beyond the Heart of Maguuma dealt with Mordremoth's call and the revelation as dragon minions (never even hinted at beyond minor dialogue during the Mordremoth's Minions Invade weekend event)Off the top of my head, these are all the missing plots that by all rights should have been covered in HoT.

All the races have been plot devices throughout the story at one point or another.TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2. Or norn (unless you count the Lost Spirits in Episode 2).

@"HotDelirium.7984" said:Release-wise that's correct but when it comes to people/armies involved its very heavily Char Focused at this moment. It will probably change and I hope it does because to not have a norn army face the #1 norn enemy is a little silly to me. The Norn I know lorewise wouldn't not be sitting by watching what was happened in these episodes and not done SOMETHING by now.Well, norn don't have armies. That's kind of the thing about norn. "Norn have no need of armies." - repeatedly stated in GW1 by norn whenever questioned why they bring so few to a large fight

So I don't expect a norn army in any way. They have always been about hunting parties - and we already got one, in a way: Braham's Destiny's Edge. We saw that hunting party in its crumbled state due to Braham leaving.

I do expect we'll be seeing more prominent norn return, as the trailer does hint that Hoelbrak gets involved, and that would suggest the Wolfborn and as such, Knut and his Knutssons get involved (which would tie back into older lore, where it's hinted that Knut has been getting the Wolfborn ready for a fight against Jormag).

[Taril.8619]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

[Teratus.2859]

Was supposed to be about Jormag and it's agenda.

We just assumed it would be heavily about the Norn because of the Dragons history with them.There's still time for more Norn based content though so we'll have to see where this goes.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Genesis.8572 said:

@"vier.1327" said:I want more sylvari Lore, we do not even have an expansion or a whole LS season yet...Are we playing the same game? Living World Season 2 and Heart of Thorns were fairly Sylvari-focused. Sylvari PCs got special dialogue in the expansion. I even recall forum posters criticizing how the Orr storyline was too focused on Sylvari and not enough on humans who were setting foot in their "Holy Lands."

so where were so sylvari exclusive skins?

[Orack.9756]

@"Dan.9304" said:when are we getting the patch that has asura as the main characters? asura master race.

As an Asura fan, I would love a lore about them we give you more information about their past and all the curious structur underground.More than just "they lived here, get rekt, go up".Even in the actual Asura lore, most of them don't know/remember all the knowledge they add in the past.I'm very curious about this race ^^

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Taril.8619 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

Shenanigans and antagonists != plot devices though. I'm not talking about the enemies of the plot or who gets involved in the plot, but the mcguffin or the dues ex machina or otherwise "the device that solves or progresses the plot".

In Season 3, the plot device of the story was Taimi's Machine. Asura. And there was the Eye that directed us to the Crystal Desert - mursaat.

In PoF, the plot device was Vlast/Aurene. Dragon. Arguably Sohothin too, but that was provided by a charr, and is technically god-originated and not human.

In Season 4's first half, the plot device of the story was... Inquest-recreated scarab plague. Asura. In the second half, it was Aurene and her ability to steal magic she eats, or it was asura who created tracking devices and brandstorm disruptors that furthered the plot.

Sure, you had humans and undead humans and magic-junkie humans coming out of the woodworks in those three plots, but they weren't providing the tools to progress the plot. They were just the aesthetic of the plot, and there wouldn't be much of a change in narration if you replaced the humans with any other race - but what would change in the story direction and order of events would be if you removed asura entirely. How then would Balthazar manage to put both Jormag and Primordus to sleep? How then would we be reintroduced to the Scarab Plague, or the Rollerbeetle; how then would the Dragonfall meta progress if not for asura magitech, or the tracking of Kralkatorrik's movements be solved?

Heart of Thorns' primary plot device was, ultimately, Rata Novus - the asura came out of literal fucking nowhere to get used as the plot device to progress and solve the plot.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

That's not plot devices.

[blackheartgary.8605]

While It does appear that the IceBrood Saga focuses heavily on the world of the Charr, There are indeed Major Norn influences.
I shall explain.The very idea that Jormag has either chosen to build an army consisting of both the Sons of Svanir, Icebrood minions, and Charr, OR that Bangar succeeded in doing the unthinkable and "claiming" an Elder Dragon for "the legions" is something that, since Living World Season 3, the Norn have had on the front burner. While at the present, the story has us fighting side by side with the charr in an all out civil war, the over-arc here is still primarily focused on Jormag vs the world with the Norn having the most to gain from Their defeat (using that pronoun as to not assume).
In the Lore of the Norn, the Chipping of the Tooth signaled the moment when the Norn could once again return to the northern Shiverpeaks. Braham became the focal point of the fight against Jormag due to it was his using of Eir's bow to perform such an action. Jhavi's arrival and subsequent taking over of the Vigil after Almorra's death Not only solidifies the Norn's presence in the story, but it also serves as a potential Vehicle for what is to come. While I agree that we started with a unification of the legions in the prologue, and now seeing them devolve into a civil conflict gives the current state of the Saga a Charr-based feel... Understand that 3 stories are happening here, all at the same time, and it can be quite difficult to pay attention to all 3.

First... we Have Jormag and the Conflict with the Norn that has raged on for centuries. yes centuries. remember, the first encounter with the norn that we had was well over 250 years ago, and the conflict began with Jora and Svanir at Drakkar Lake. Since that moment, it has always been(while not obvious) a conflict of interests progressing into all out war between the norn and the Elder Dragon. The conflict still exists today. As long as Jormag exists... as long as the Sons of Svanir and the Icebrood still walk the planet, the Norn will continue to fight. The Norn wish for their Homeland. they Long for it. and Jormag will not give in that easily, hence obtaining the Charr as allies the same way Svanir was corrupted.

Second, we have the Jealousy-driven Bangar Ruinbringer, his followers(including Rytlock's son) one one side, and Rytlock, Crecia, and the united legions on the other. Bangar refuses to accept anything short of victory. he truly believes that with Jormag under his belt, the ultimate takeover of Tyria is possible, and the Charr can reclaim the lands they once called home. Bangar has honey-soaked words, being able to convince those loyal to him that with the right amount of force, Jormag will be under their control, and there is a very real chance that force could be used to break the Treaty with the Humans(hence why logan and Kasmeer was present in the recent episode). Of course we are going to see a very strong Influence of the Charr. in the Icebrood saga. the location of the saga is smack dab in the middle of Charr-held lands. For the Norn to walk right through those homelands to confront Jormag without any charr influence is difficult at best. so here we are. a conflict with an Elder Dragon, and a Civil War that could escalate into a Global Conflict.

and finally... The commander. In the recent Years, the Commander has seen things and has begun to slightly, increasingly, unravel. Cursing, shouting at Dragon's Watch members, and making decisions that have ultimately led to the death of several prominent members of Tyria. Let's Not forget this for a moment... and consider the fact that Palawa Joko's claims were entirely 100% true about the commander. Everyone shrugged this off EXCEPT the commander. "whispers in the dark" revealed that to us. The commander has faced obstacle after obstacle without break, without letup... and the time it has taken for them to absorb everything that has happened since zhaitan has has not completely sunk in. and that will happen soon.so No, i don't agree that the Icebrood Saga is charr-centric. I also do not believe the Icebrood Saga is norn-centric or lacking norn-stories. I think it's a 3-way dance and we shall see as it progresses how the dance ends.

[Taril.8619]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:TBH, I don't think humans have been ever used as plot devices in GW2.

Uhh... Did you miss like the entirety of LW3, PoF and LW4?

Where there was White Mantle (Humans) shenanigans, Shining Blade (Human Secret Society) stuff involving Lazarus (Who was notable due to what he did to Humans), Human Ministers and their treachery (Caudecus), a Human God going to destroy dragons to get more power to destroy more Human Gods and then an ancient pestilence that wiped out an old Human civilization being used again to try and eradicate more Humans.

Shenanigans and antagonists != plot devices though. I'm not talking about the enemies of the plot or who gets involved in the plot, but the mcguffin or the dues ex machina or otherwise "the device that solves or progresses the plot".

In Season 3, the plot device of the story was Taimi's Machine. Asura. And there was the Eye that directed us to the Crystal Desert - mursaat.

In PoF, the plot device was Vlast/Aurene. Dragon.

Arguably

Sohothin too, but that was provided by a charr, and is technically god-originated and not human.

In Season 4's first half, the plot device of the story was... Inquest-recreated scarab plague. Asura. In the second half, it was Aurene and her ability to steal magic she eats, or it was asura who created tracking devices and brandstorm disruptors that furthered the plot.

Sure, you had humans and undead humans and magic-junkie humans coming out of the woodworks in those three plots, but they weren't providing the tools to progress the plot. They were just the aesthetic of the plot, and there wouldn't be much of a change in narration if you replaced the humans with any other race - but what

would

change in the story direction and order of events would be if you removed asura entirely. How then would Balthazar manage to put both Jormag and Primordus to sleep? How then would we be reintroduced to the Scarab Plague, or the Rollerbeetle; how then would the Dragonfall meta progress if not for asura magitech, or the tracking of Kralkatorrik's movements be solved?

Heart of Thorns' primary plot device was, ultimately, Rata Novus - the asura came out of literal kitten nowhere to get used as the plot device to progress and solve the plot.

So...

White Mantle being a flimsy excuse to introduce "Lazarus" is not a plot device?

Having to join the Shining Blade just to find the Eye was not a plot device (Especially when Livia goes off to Ember Isles, a place we've already explored, looking for the Eye)?

The whole killing of Lazarus just to meet the Eye was not a plot device?

Balthazar was not a plot device?

Visiting the Human Gods to ask them for help was not a plot device?

All of the above mentioned stuff was humans being used as a plot device. "Lazarus" didn't need to exist, it could have simply been Balthazar from the get go (The fact he ditched the White Mantle and hired Mercenaries right away proves this).

Joining the Shining Blade was unecessary, literally anyone could have provided us transport to Siren's Call (Such as the Sylvari, whom are already there trying to recover the land).

The killing of Lazarus arc was entirely redundant and could have been replaced by any suitable draw of the "Eye".

Balthazar could have been replaced by literally any threat from the mists to be released by Rytlock by accident. Heck it needn't even be something Rytlock released from the mists and could have been literally anything that wanted to hunt down Dragons to gain their power, even another Dragon (If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)

The entire trip to the Human Gods was pointless even as it stands with them basically telling us to go do one.

The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:What plotholes or unanswered questions from HoT? As for cut content there is Mylack, which has no affect on HoT's story, and the 4th route on Dragon Stand.... which also has no affect on the story.

• Malyck (cut)
• Nightmare Court's view on Mordremoth (mostly cut and bugged out of the Prisoners of the Dragon - notice the empty cells? They're meant to have Nightmare Courtiers according to Matthew Medina)
• How the Pale Tree was purified (briefly mentioned in the Complete Art of Guild Wars)
• The seed cave Ronan found, and the "plant monsters" within
• The origin of Dream and Nightmare and why they both fight the Elder Dragons and even Mordremoth (the latter, at least, for the Dream)
• Canach and sylvari being assaulted in concrete cities (per the S2 teaser)
• How sylvari beyond the Heart of Maguuma dealt with Mordremoth's call and the revelation as dragon minions (never even hinted at beyond minor dialogue during the Mordremoth's Minions Invade weekend event)Off the top of my head, these are all the missing plots that by all rights should have been covered in HoT.Almost nothing you listed has anything to do with HoT, or is classified as missing or cut, beyond the Malyck, and, Nightmare court thing already mentioned. Several of them aren't even questions/plotholes in the first place.
• Like Canach and the Sylvari being attacked in cities. As per the HoT story we were stuck in the jungle the whole time, why would what is happening in the cities be brought up? No one has contact with them. That bit in the cutscene was just Anet covering the very obvious fact that, yeah, if a large number of Sylvari went evil, and everyone found out they were dragon minions, people would attack them out of fear. Bringing up that "basic commonsense thing happens" doesn't mean it needs to be a big plot device, it just means they are recognizing that yeah, that thing would happen.
• Same thing with the cave Ronan found the seed in, and the plant monsters within. It was just a cave, that happened to have some old Mordrem in it, guarding an old blighting tree seed from the last cycle. If it had appeared in HoT it would have been a Poi because... why would it be anything else at this point?
• Its already been mentioned that Mordremoth's call was very faint outside of the Heart of the Maguuma. Sylvari all the way in the cities, Shiverpeaks, Ascalon, and elsewhere never even heard it, or it was so weak to not affect them.
• As for the revelation they were dragon minions, to most Sylvari why would it matter? At this point in their civilization's life the knowledge that they were originally meant to be something else doesn't change that they aren't, and never have been. Its not like Glint where she started off a dragon minion, got freed, and then had to make the decision on what to do with her life from that point on. Nothing changes about how 99% of the Sylvari have lived, or will continue to live, their lives. At most, its just a factoid to fill in a history book.
• As to how the Pale Tree was purified I don't see that as much of a question either. The seed was planted and hatched in a time when Mordremoth was asleep, and like asleep asleep, not the "asleep but still talking to its minions" kind of sleep Jormag is in right now. It never had the mental/magical connection to Mordremoth dragon minions typically have. Its like asking why Aurene was "purified" and didn't need some sort of magical purification ritual to separate her from Kralk despite being Kralk's own blood. It was never connected to Mordremoth in the first place, and Ronan and Ventari's teachings let it grow into something nice. Just like Aurene is nice due to her commendation to mortals, whereas Vlast mentions being kind of a depressed ahole who kind of didn't like his job, because his champion never came, and thus, he couldn't get attached to the mortals he was supposed to protect.

This is the problem with fandoms in general, they became so wrapped up in something that they lose track of common sense, and basic rational thinking, and assume everything has to be part of some giant meta-conspiracy like story, when it never would be because that doesn't make sense.

Its the same problem with the Lazarus and Joko speculations, that grew so far out of control even back in the original Guild wars that it was bizarre that anyone thought even half the speculation would come true, and, lo and behold, it didn't, because it never made sense it would be that big in the first place.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Taril.8619" said:(If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)Aurene isn't a random egg, she is Glint's last egg. And Glint is the literal child of Kralk, unlike the other dragon shaped minions like Teq and Shatterer, which are just magical constructs. And none of the other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them, so there no other place to get a real dragon egg. Also, she wasn't "conveniently" found. she was given to the Zephyrites by... someone working for/with Glint to keep it safe.

@"Taril.8619" said:The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.Actually it was Inquest recreated. The inquest found ancient specimens, and spent long amounts of time recreating it through successive generational breeding of the scarabs. Even if Joko's Awakened found the old scarabs, they wouldn't have had the know how to recreate the plague. The Inquest was entirely the source behind its existence in the modern day.

[Taril.8619]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:(If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)Aurene isn't a random egg, she is Glint's last egg. And Glint is the literal child of Kralk, unlike the other dragon shaped minions like Teq and Shatterer, which are just magical constructs. And none of the other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them, so there no other place to get a real dragon egg. Also, she wasn't "conveniently" found. she was given to the Zephyrites by... someone working for/with Glint to keep it safe.

Aurene is a random egg.

No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation. Just because no-one has found any doesn't mean that none exist. It's not as if these Elder Dragons are just going to leave their eggs sitting around where any random mortal can happen across them either.

Yes, she was "Conveniently" found. She was given to the Zephyrites and then we conveniently ran into the Zephyrites in Dry Top and conveniently ran into the Master of Peace after conveniently finding out about the egg from visiting Glint's Lair so that we could happen to get to him right as he died and so get entrusted with the egg.

Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

@"Taril.8619" said:The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.Actually it was Inquest recreated. The inquest found ancient specimens, and spent long amounts of time recreating it through successive generational breeding of the scarabs. Even if Joko's Awakened found the old scarabs, they wouldn't have had the know how to recreate the plague. The Inquest was entirely the source behind its existence in the modern day.

What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

Since the quest The Road to Rata Primus has Gorrik explain that they have samples of the original plague (Which are the ones that Joko took).

Meanwhile, going through The Test Subject shows that the experiments that the Inquest are running are to get the plague to work on non-Humans (Notably, charr due to the proximity of the Olmakhan, but also wildlife and skritt are being experimented on)

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Taril.8619" said:No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

[Taril.8619]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Taril.8619 said:No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.

Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.

Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.

Since again, why would they make this clear in front of mortals?

The uniqueness of Glint has always been her ability to relate to humans after being cleansed. Which then was proceeded by her making plans to have her children follow in her footsteps and finish her plan if she doesn't suceed herself.

Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.

Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death. As such, the consequences of these things are not part of her plan, Vlast mentions so with his Vision Crystals about how Morty's death brought about the stirring of Kralkatorrik too soon.

The fact that we happened upon her egg at the exactly the right time, just before it hatched prematurely due to us killing Morty and thus empowering it with Jungle Dragon Juice, is a total coincidence.

It's hammered in that Glint could not see much past her fight with Kralkatorrik due to the concequences of the fight (I.e. Her death) so all of her plan beyond that point (Which was in the past for all of our characters and the entirety of GW2's story) had to be made under the assumptions of when things should happen.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?

That Joko could have simply gotten the Scarab Plague samples from Faranhur and used the corpses of the Inquest there to accomplish his goals even without Rata Primus? Or could have even figured out how to create the necessary 3rd generation of scarabs on his own if the Inquest happened to not be inserted into the story?

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Taril.8619 said:Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.This isn't an argument. by this logic the second Lord of the Rings movie should also include everything from the first one so people can just start at the second one and not be confused. Same with the second movie needing to also include everything from the first and second movies. That isn't how narratives work.Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.No one said they can't.Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.No one said it was.Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death.Glint's whole plan was to kill all the Elder Dragons and replace them. So yes, she did foresee it, it was part of her plan. Hell, Aurene was meant to be taken to Tarir because she was meant to replace Mordremoth in the cycle.prematurelythe egg didn't hatch prematurely.So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?Nope, wrong again. The Inquest was needed to have the technical knowledge to start the cycle in the first place. They didn't need to be awakened.

Its like you are intentionally misrepresenting everything I saw, and everything that happened in the game's story, just to find problems with it that aren't there.

[Kulvar.1239]

We had a lot of Norn in Bjora and we'll see more Icebrood in the following episodes, what more do you want ?