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Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?


Vancho.8750

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Taril.8619 said:Good thing that's here in GW2 so that the story makes sense.This isn't an argument. by this logic the second Lord of the Rings movie should also include everything from the first one so people can just start at the second one and not be confused. Same with the second movie needing to also include everything from the first and second movies. That isn't how narratives work.

It would be logical, if everyone in the second Lord of the Rings movie was utterly astounded about things that happened in the first one.

Such is the case here, where every single NPC is shocked to learn that Glint had offspring. Including the exalted in Tarir.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Again, this is speculation. Just because they've shown no desire, doesn't mean they haven't or can't.No one said they can't.

You did. That was your entire argument literally 2 posts ago.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Nothing about actually having children was made out to be the super unique Glint only thing.No one said it was.

You did. Literally in your previous post.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except it was. Glint didn't forsee Zhaitan's death. Nor Mordremoth's death.Glint's whole plan was to kill all the Elder Dragons and replace them. So yes, she did foresee it, it was part of her plan. Hell, Aurene was meant to be taken to Tarir because she was meant to replace Mordremoth in the cycle.

She didn't forsee it. She knew that they needed to die to be replaced, but she didn't see when they would die.

Ergo, Vlast talking about Morty dying too soon.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

prematurelythe egg didn't hatch prematurely.

Oh, so it's even more conveniently timed hatching.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

So you're saying that the inquest was only necessary by way of needing to exist as targets to be awakened?Nope, wrong again. The Inquest was needed to have the technical knowledge to start the cycle in the first place. They didn't need to be awakened.

The technical knowledge? Meaning, they could have been awakened and thus still retain their technical knowledge. Which is how Joko uses them. He doesn't have a bunch of living Inquest serving him. He has awakened inquest serving him.

It's also what he alluded to when he captured Taimi and needed to get through the locked door and says that she can die and help him and the order doesn't matter, because awakened beings retain their knowledge.

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@"Taril.8619" said:So...

White Mantle being a flimsy excuse to introduce "Lazarus" is not a plot device?

Having to join the Shining Blade just to find the Eye was not a plot device (Especially when Livia goes off to Ember Isles, a place we've already explored, looking for the Eye)?

The whole killing of Lazarus just to meet the Eye was not a plot device?

Balthazar was not a plot device?

Visiting the Human Gods to ask them for help was not a plot device?

  1. I would not consider the White Mantle a "flimsy excuse to introduce Lazarus" in the first place. The White Mantle were their own 5-release long storyline (the three Forsaken Thicket releases + Episodes 1 and 4) that was foreshadowed throughout Season 2 (particularly in episodes 1 and 4 when we first entered Dry Top and The Silverwastes). Rather, I would say "Lazarus was a flimsy excuse to introduce Balthazar". And no, I would disagree with that being a plot device, because it doesn't exist solely to progress the plot forward - rather, it is the plot itself. The device that drives the plot forward would be, at best, the note on Caudecus's desk. Though I would consider such an argument rather flimsy, because there was already suspicion that Lazarus was a fake or otherwise lying in the first place due to the change in personality from history. It wasn't even really used as the be all excuse for antagonizing Lazarus in Taimi's Pet Project, so it was ultimately an irrelevant addition that merely altered the course of dialogue, rather than the course of events.
  2. Technically, the plot device there is the Eye of Janthir, as it is what drives the plot forward from "where's Balthazar" to "I found Balthazar" - the entire episode is basically a filler built around this plot device, which is mursaat related more than human related.
  3. Nope, that is called filler. Do not confuse the two.
  4. Nope, confronting Balthazar is not a plot device, but the plot climax. A climax does not drive the plot forward, but usually serves as the conclusion before the epilogue.
  5. Again, no, because that is not being used to drive the plot forward, but rather is explosition provided to explain the plot. One could argue that Kormir's crytpic words were a plot device, but it didn't cause the plot to move forward - rather, it caused the plot to stagnate a bit via filler so that we have a reason to hit a moment of exposition.

In the future, please learn what literary terms mean, and don't use "plot device" as a catch-all term for any technique in literary writing. In your post, you have confused exposition, buildup, narrative, filler, and and climax with "plot device". A plot device is a character or object within a story who's sole purpose is to drive the plot forward after reaching a hit of stagnation in the narrative.

All of the above mentioned stuff was humans being used as a plot device. "Lazarus" didn't need to exist, it could have simply been Balthazar from the get go (The fact he ditched the White Mantle and hired Mercenaries right away proves this).

Joining the Shining Blade was unecessary, literally anyone could have provided us transport to Siren's Call (Such as the Sylvari, whom are already there trying to recover the land).

The killing of Lazarus arc was entirely redundant and could have been replaced by any suitable draw of the "Eye".

Balthazar could have been replaced by literally any threat from the mists to be released by Rytlock by accident. Heck it needn't even be something Rytlock released from the mists and could have been literally anything that wanted to hunt down Dragons to gain their power, even another Dragon (If Aurene is a random egg that is conveniently found and hatched... What about any other dragon eggs?)

The entire trip to the Human Gods was pointless even as it stands with them basically telling us to go do one.It is human related, yes, but not plot devices. Lazarus and joining the Shining Blade indeed didn't need to exist, it was just a filler inbetween Flashpoint and Path of Fire, while Balthazar pretending to be Lazarus wasn't a plot device - it didn't drive the plot forward in any way shape or form, it was exposition and buildup to help further the removal of the White Mantle and rise of Balthazar.

Balthazar arguably could have been replaced by literally any threat, but that doesn't make him a plot device. Zhaitan is not a plot device, he's the antagonist - there is a difference - and yeah, you could replace Zhaitan with literally any kind of undead leader threat and get the same narrative as the core game.

And, as mentioned by Sajuuk, Aurene is not "a random egg". Replay Season 2 and Heart of Throns, and it is firmly established to be the last of Glint's eggs - Glint, who was a scion and champion of Kralkatorrik that was purified by the Forgotten (per Arah dungeon and Edge of Destiny novel, also re-established in Season 2, Heart of Thorns, Season 3, and Path of Fire). The only other egg of Glint's that survived long enough to hatch was Vlast's, hence why Balthazar goes after Vlast first.

The scarab plague was not "Inquest-recreated" it was the actual plague. They merely took a specimen from Faranhur to experiment with. The actual asura were inconsequential to the entire thing (Especially when Awakened were all throughout Faranhur anyway, they could have stumbled upon the plague), with their only relevance being the gates used to distribute the plague.The Scarab Plague was indeed the "actual plague" (for what little it holds of its original GW1 horror in lore), but it was revitalized / resurrected / recreated / whatever-terminology-you-want-to-use by the Inquest. Without the Inquest's sudden presence in Elona, the entire Scarab Plague arc would have been completely different. And that is not inconsequential. Because the Awakened couldn't have "stumbled upon the plauge" because the plague was gone in GW1; that would be a retcon of ridiculous proportions that makes the entire plot of Nightfall silly since the entire plot of Nightfall began because Fahranur was entered and found that the Scarba Plague was gone enough to explore and excavate.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Almost nothing you listed has anything to do with HoT, or is classified as missing or cut, beyond the Malyck, and, Nightmare court thing already mentioned. Several of them aren't even questions/plotholes in the first place.
Everything
there has to do with the origins of the sylvari, which was one of the primary focuses of HoT alongside Glint's Legacy and Mordremoth's invasion (or at least, was prompted to be and was instead made a footnote for some events). And they were all either cut content, teased content that was never addressed, or were pivotal questions about the sylvari's backstory and their relation to Mordremoth.

And those questions are things asked by players for a long time, and some were even prompted by HoT, but at what point after HoT is it relevant for the game's narrative to return to those topics, like the origins of the Dream and why Mordremoth can access it but yet it tries to kill him by giving the PC a Wyld Hunt of that very goal?

  • As to how the Pale Tree was purified I don't see that as much of a question either. The seed was planted and hatched in a time when Mordremoth was asleep, and like asleep asleep, not the "asleep but still talking to its minions" kind of sleep Jormag is in right now. It never had the mental/magical connection to Mordremoth dragon minions typically have. Its like asking why Aurene was "purified" and didn't need some sort of magical purification ritual to separate her from Kralk despite being Kralk's own blood. It was never connected to Mordremoth in the first place, and Ronan and Ventari's teachings let it grow into something nice. Just like Aurene is nice due to her commendation to mortals, whereas Vlast mentions being kind of a depressed kitten who kind of didn't like his job, because his champion never came, and thus, he couldn't get attached to the mortals he was supposed to protect.

Aurene was purified because she was from an egg by the purified Glint - she, like sylvari, were born not-corrupted. So no, it is not like asking that. Jormag was asleep and still, it corrupted Svanir; Mordremoth was asleep, and it twisted Scarlet. Primordus was asleep, and destroyers roamed. Elder Dragons being asleep does not purify its minions - as clearly shown by Drakkar, Svanir, the Great Destroyer, and the risen Giganticus Lupicus.

And for that matter, kind teachings do not purify dragon minions either. This is made point blank, repeatedly, throughout the base games and Sea of Sorrows novel. This is why the Forgotten ritual was necessary, because "the power of love and friendship" does not fix magical enslavement, even when the enslaver is sleeping.

Besides which, the Complete Art of Guild Wars, confirms that the Pale Tree was purified by unknown means. Which makes your claim of "it was never connected to Mordremoth in the first place" not only pure speculation, but disproven - if it was never connected, then it wasn't a purified blighting tree, and sylvari wouldn't "belong to the jungle dragon" or "come from Mordremoth" or any of that stuff - hell, the Exalted wouldn't call sylvari PCs mordrem if they weren't from a purified blighting tree.

@"Taril.8619" said:Aurene is a random egg.

No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.

Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation. Just because no-one has found any doesn't mean that none exist. It's not as if these Elder Dragons are just going to leave their eggs sitting around where any random mortal can happen across them either.

Yes, she was "Conveniently" found. She was given to the Zephyrites and then we conveniently ran into the Zephyrites in Dry Top and conveniently ran into the Master of Peace after conveniently finding out about the egg from visiting Glint's Lair so that we could happen to get to him right as he died and so get entrusted with the egg.

Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!

None of that was a coincidence. We knew in Prophecies, during our first interaction with Glint, that she had several dozen eggs. In Eye of the North, the first of these eggs had hatched and was attacked by Destroyers. The Zephyrites were brought up in Season 1 as the spiritual descendants of the Brotherhood of the Dragon (again, met in GW1) and in Season 2's prologue we got hints of an egg being with them. Then in Season 2, we saw the egg, and how the Zephyrites got it. None of that was random or a coincidence - it was all well seeded over months and tied in directly to our oldest lore of Glint. And in Season 2, we didn't "conveniently find" the egg, we were guided towards it and towards Tarir by Ogden and the Pale Tree's vision.

And she hatched because of our actions in killing Mordremoth - though the entire reason for the trek to Tarir was because it was getting ready to hatch; again, no coincidence.

With how much buildup and plot establishment you think is pure coincidence must think that R2-D2 finding Ob-wan Kenobi on Tatooine in Star Wars A New Hope is a coincidence too, or that Obi-Wan looking over Luke Skywalker, the son of Darth Vader, was a pure coincidence too.

What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?

Since the quest The Road to Rata Primus has Gorrik explain that they have samples of the original plague (Which are the ones that Joko took).

Meanwhile, going through The Test Subject shows that the experiments that the Inquest are running are to get the plague to work on non-Humans (Notably, charr due to the proximity of the Olmakhan, but also wildlife and skritt are being experimented on)

In GW1, it's firmly established that the only reason why Kormir could authorize the excavation of Fahranur was because the plague was no longer present there. The only things found were dead spore samples. The entirety of episode 1 is pretty much there just to explain that the Awakened couldn't get the real Scarab Plague so they created "fake Scarab Plagues" (which we witness in both metas), while episodes 1-3 all establish and re-establish that the Inquest found dead scarabs (just as Istani scholars did in GW1) and revived the Scarab Plague and now had live samples, which is what Joko then stole.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Everything there has to do with the origins of the sylvari, which was one of the primary focuses of HoT alongside Glint's Legacy and Mordremoth's invasion (or at least, was prompted to be and was instead made a footnote for some events). And they were all either cut content, teased content that was never addressed, or were pivotal questions about the sylvari's backstory and their relation to Mordremoth.

And those questions are things asked by players for a long time, and some were even prompted by HoT, but at what point after HoT is it relevant for the game's narrative to return to those topics, like the origins of the Dream and why Mordremoth can access it but yet it tries to kill him by giving the PC a Wyld Hunt of that very goal?I can't really buy this argument. Fandoms tend to ask questions that are totally pointless all the time. The Star Trek fandom has a large group of people who are absolutely obsessed with trying to determine things like "how big is the ship" despite the fact there is no canonal information on the size of pretty much any ship or station in Star Trek, and even the makers of the shows themselves have admitted ship's scale changes based on how they want the scene to feel. Not to mention that the size of the ship is never really an issue in the shows themselves, making knowing how large they really are even more pointless.

Things like the cave Ronan found the seed in are, 100%, absolutely, irrelevant to the Sylvari's origins, or any story involving them. No effort was made to ever make the cave seem seem to be anything but a cave. The only things that were ever emphasized were the strange seed, and the planet monsters guarding it, both of which got answers in HoT. Ronan could have found the seed in the middle of a steam somewhere deep in the Maguuma and nothing would change about the story because where he found it doesn't, and never, mattered. Any issue of finding it would result in a POI, and maybe a short quip from Sylvari characters about somehow feeling this is the place the seed was found.

As for the Dream, Anet could literally shove revelations about the Dream at ANY point in the story, since the Dream is so much of a nonentity in the canon, insofar as hard information on what it is, that they could connect it to anything and have it make sense. Hell, they could tie it into some sort of primal force of the planet that is also revealed to have spawned the Spirits of the Wild and it would make sense because the Dream is THAT much of a not-thing in the story.

Most probably though, we know that the Dragons have a hive mind like connection to all their minions, that allows them to know anything their minions know, and send out at least general knowledge on what the Dragon's will is. We also know that powerful champions of the dragons can use this hive-mind to give orders to lesser minions, and that, even after the dragon's death, even weak minion can still take advantage of this link to control very small groups of the most lesser of minions.

With the Pale Tree/Sylvari's mental connection to Mordremoth being non-existent from the get go, the intrinsic hive mind within dragon minions(Sylvari) would have very done what the Borg in Star Trek do when disconnected from the main hive mind, aka create their own, with the Pale Tree as the hub. This hive mind being separate from Mordremoth's, but ultimately based on the hive mind his minions use, and the Sylvari's personalities being influenced by Ronan and Ventari, would have been what allowed Mordremoth to enter it(its based on his mental network after all), but would also serve to why it attacked Mordremoth, like an immune system, it detected a foreign entity within it, and fought back.

The Pale Tree not having the same sort of direct power like Dragon Champions do would also explain why the Sylvari essentially get a random shotgun blast of information from it, instead of a flow of information controllable by the Pale Tree.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

  1. I would not consider the White Mantle a "flimsy excuse to introduce Lazarus" in the first place. The White Mantle were their own 5-release long storyline (the three Forsaken Thicket releases + Episodes 1 and 4) that was foreshadowed throughout Season 2 (particularly in episodes 1 and 4 when we first entered Dry Top and The Silverwastes). Rather, I would say "Lazarus was a flimsy excuse to introduce Balthazar". And no, I would disagree with that being a plot device, because it doesn't exist solely to progress the plot forward - rather, it is the plot itself. The device that drives the plot forward would be, at best, the note on Caudecus's desk. Though I would consider such an argument rather flimsy, because there was already suspicion that Lazarus was a fake or otherwise lying in the first place due to the change in personality from history. It wasn't even really used as the be all excuse for antagonizing Lazarus in Taimi's Pet Project, so it was ultimately an irrelevant addition that merely altered the course of dialogue, rather than the course of events.

Given that the story relevance was "Oh look, Lazarus our lord and saviour is back" before immediately being dumped and relegated to a filler episode involving Caudecus.

I'd consider that a plot device. As it advanced the plot by giving a reason for "Lazarus" to enter the stage.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

  1. Technically, the plot device there is the Eye of Janthir, as it is what drives the plot forward from "where's Balthazar" to "I found Balthazar" - the entire episode is basically a filler built around this plot device, which is mursaat related more than human related.

The Shining Blade was a plot device to get us to the Eye of Janthir. It drove the plot from "Where's Balthazar" to the object that let us find Balthazar.

It also happened to contain a lot of filler.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

  1. Nope, confronting Balthazar is not a plot device, but the plot climax. A climax does not drive the plot forward, but usually serves as the conclusion before the epilogue.

Balthazar as a whole has been a plot device on many occasions.

Initially, it's when he was posing as Lazarus and then being all shifty right before stealing Omadd's Machine, this could be considered in of itself the plot, but up until this point the plot had been "We gon smash the dragons" and this served to stall that plot by putting us on a track of filler (Which later caused Taimi to be another plot device in finding out about the consequences of killing the dragons and thus change the plot from "We gon smash the dragons" to "We gon save the dragons")

Then there was the first confrontation in PoF, where all he did was beat us up and kill Vlast just to get us to go to Glints Lair.

Then there was the second confrontation where he killed us. Serving to just advance the plot via letting us talk to Joko and thus get us onto gaining the awakened army.

Finally there's his entire existence in the story at all. Which only serves as a means to get Kralkatorrik to reawaken and get us back to the original plot before this interlude with Balthazar, which is dealing with the dragons.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In the future, please learn what literary terms mean, and don't use "plot device" as a catch-all term for any technique in literary writing. In your post, you have confused exposition, buildup, narrative, filler, and and climax with "plot device". A plot device is a character or object within a story who's sole purpose is to drive the plot forward after reaching a hit of stagnation in the narrative.

A plot device is anything that causes advancement of the plot.

This is irregardless of if the narrative has hit stagnation or not, or even if said device is integral to the entire story. For example, the One Ring in Lord of the Rings is a plot device, even though literally the entirety of the saga is about the journey to destroy it.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:And, as mentioned by Sajuuk, Aurene is not "a random egg". Replay Season 2 and Heart of Throns, and it is firmly established to be the last of Glint's eggs - Glint, who was a scion and champion of Kralkatorrik that was purified by the Forgotten (per Arah dungeon and Edge of Destiny novel, also re-established in Season 2, Heart of Thorns, Season 3, and Path of Fire). The only other egg of Glint's that survived long enough to hatch was Vlast's, hence why Balthazar goes after Vlast first.

It is "a random egg"

Since its entire foundation was "Apparently there's still an egg left" leading into "Oh look, here's the egg"

It's one thing for Caithe to have a Wyld Hunt to protect the egg and get it to Tarir, but that entire exposition was done AFTER we'd already stumbled upon it.

Before that, was it common knowledge that Glint had an egg remaining? No.Was anyone actively looking for the egg? No.Was anyone aware of the eggs existence? Ogden, though he wasn't making any perceptible attempts to do anything about it.

It was just an "Oh, by the way, an egg exists. Probably key to the survival of the planet. Have fun now!" and then getting the egg (Well, with some filler involving Caithe's backstory in between)

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@"Taril.8619" said:Before that, was it common knowledge that Glint had an egg remaining? No.Was anyone actively looking for the egg? No.Was anyone aware of the eggs existence? Ogden, though he wasn't making any perceptible attempts to do anything about it.Define "common" knowledge. Ogden, the Zypherites, and the Exalted, all knew of Glint's Egg, and had a plan to bring it to Tarir. Thats a fair number of people. Vlast knew also.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.

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@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.Character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality that the reader or the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story and can't be replaced with any other random blank character.
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

Define "relevant" then, otherwise any non-generic Norn is relevant.Character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality that the reader or the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story and can't be replaced with any other random blank character.

What the player care to remember is up to each player, so it's one of the most unreliable criteria. I don't care about humans in RPG and would be unable to cite more than an handful of humans from GW2.

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I've generally liked the Norn representation in Icebrood Saga thus far. We have already

  • Gotten more background on Braham's failed attempt to kill Jormag, and what happened to the group he went with.
  • Killed the Fraenir, the highest ranking of the Svanir.
  • Had Jhavi lead a large attack on Drakkar, and defeat the beast in combat, earning her and her family some measure of revenge for what the creature did to them.
  • Learned what happened to the lost Spirits of the Wild, who stayed behind to keep Jormag at bay, and have, at least temporarily, freed them from Jormag's influence.
  • Interacted with both Raven and Wolf.
  • Gotten some more Asgeir lore, and even gotten a look at some echo of him via the Raven lens.

Just need some Bear and Snow Leopard time, maybe some "shocking" reveal behind what the Spirits of the Wild actually are, and to defeat Jormag and thus break the Icebrood and Svanir's backbone.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I can't really buy this argument.Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I do agree that fandoms tend to ask questions that are ultimately not necessary or even pointless, but those, imo, are neither. Sure, you can have a plot without (as we have seen), but I would argue that answering those questions in the relevant plots would have served to enhance the plot - answering them now would feel tacted on and done for patching holes and/or fanservice of sorts, but if it was done during HoT, it would have served as potentially fun revelations.

One thing I think is the main difference between your and my opinion is that you're taking the topics at a bare-bones face value, and not seeing the potential behind the exploration of those topics. You had the same kind of viewpoint with plots and theories like Renegades being financed by Bangar (which even got confirmed and, despite being a footnote, expanded the initial distrust of Bangar and more firmly established Bangar's mentality and viewpoint - the same thing with making Ajax to be his son, ultimately not needed for the plot, but it adds so much to the characters involved and events around them), Drakkar being Jormag's scion and a pivotal role in Icebrood Saga, and other similar past discussions between us.

Kept at the bare bones face value, you're completely correct - adding a simple cave of seeds adds nothing. But that very cave of seeds could have been used to explore some more history of the previous dragonrise and the actions of, say, the Forgotten, exploring lore that otherwise wouldn't have been added, confirming how the Pale Tree got purified, and even expand the Pale Tree (and the other seeds) into potential roles of Glint's Legacy (which would make perfect sense - the Pale Tree knew to get the egg to Tarir, and showed us this; but how did she know? it remains unanswered, just like Ogden's comment of "There are those who have taken interest. I had some warning that you might be calling." in Hidden Arcana, which may or may not relate to Glint's Legacy).

They could have used one lore question that's been nagging players since 2007, and used it to expand the worldbuilding tenfold. Without even adding much - all it needed, as a singular event, or a PoI with some interactive objects.

@"Taril.8619" said:Given that the story relevance was "Oh look, Lazarus our lord and saviour is back" before immediately being dumped and relegated to a filler episode involving Caudecus.

I'd consider that a plot device. As it advanced the plot by giving a reason for "Lazarus" to enter the stage.Caudecus wasn't really a filler episode. He had been one of the main sub-plots for quite some time, unlike Lazarus. The White Mantle schism, the Krytan civil war - these were the main plot.

Season 3 was running three plots concurrently - Jormag+Primordus rising, the Krytan civil war, and Balthazar's return. Episode 6 was the only filler episode.

The Shining Blade was a plot device to get us to the Eye of Janthir. It drove the plot from "Where's Balthazar" to the object that let us find Balthazar.

It also happened to contain a lot of filler.The Shining Blade was a filler plot that was furthered by the Eye of Janthir. They wouldn't have gotten involved without the Eye of Janthir and our involvement with them was pushed forward by the Eye of Janthir.

Balthazar as a whole has been a plot device on many occasions.-snip rest-I don't think plot device means what you think it means.

(P.S., Kralkatorrik didn't "reawaken" - he was always awake and active)

-snip rest for length-It's one thing for Caithe to have a Wyld Hunt to protect the egg and get it to Tarir, but that entire exposition was done AFTER we'd already stumbled upon it.-snip rest for length-

I wasn't talking about Caithe's supposed Wyld Hunt by Mordremoth. I was talking about the vision given to us by the Pale Tree at the end of The World Summit, before we found the egg - before that moment, all we knew was "the Master of Peace is traveling alone for some important reason". We had hints of the egg at that point, but it was the Pale Tree's vision which revealed that crystal orb.

I think you need to replay Season 2, because it's pretty clear you're misremembering the order of events.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

Techncially, you said "any relevancy" and they all have some relevancy to the plot:

Weibe is present to maintain Jora's Keep from further Svanir attacks after the keep was wiped out by Olar's betrayal. He is constantly counteracting the Fraenir of Jormag's blizzards and abuse of Raven's magic, so that the Vigil (and by extention, the Commander and co) can establsih a foothold in the area.

The Freanir of Jormag, besides being revealed as the one who prevented us from going after Bangar at the end of Bound by Blood, is the one who orchestrated the slaughter of Jora's Keep, the kidnapping of Jhavi and Almorra, and ultimately indirectly caused the death of Almorra (yes, it was later revealed to be Bangar and Ryland, but that couldn't have happened without the Fraenir directing the Sons of Svanir in Bjora Marches).

Olar, a former member of Braham's Destiny's Edge, betrayed the others and worked with the Sons of Svanir to slaughter Jora's Keep. He was the one who captured Jhavi and Almorra, leading to the Commander being lured into the region by Jormag after Almorra's death. Without Olar, the entire plot of Episode 1 couldn't have happened, since he was the reason Jora's Keep could be wiped out through the Freanir's planning.

I'd say they were all very important to the plot of episode 1, even if they had a lack of screen time. Without their presence and roles, the reasoning for events occurring would all have to be changed.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Vancho.8750 said:Name more than 3 Norn Characters in the Story with any relevancy.
  1. Braham
  2. Jhavi
  3. Weibe
  4. Freanir of Jormag
  5. OlarWhat is the relevant about the last two, being generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play is not relevant in any way. The Freanir of Jormag might get a pass since he gets killed on daily basis as the second ice golem guy.

Techncially, you said "any relevancy" and they all have some relevancy to the plot:

Weibe is present to maintain Jora's Keep from further Svanir attacks after the keep was wiped out by Olar's betrayal. He is constantly counteracting the Fraenir of Jormag's blizzards and abuse of Raven's magic, so that the Vigil (and by extention, the Commander and co) can establsih a foothold in the area.

The Freanir of Jormag, besides being revealed as the one who prevented us from going after Bangar at the end of Bound by Blood, is the one who orchestrated the slaughter of Jora's Keep, the kidnapping of Jhavi and Almorra, and ultimately indirectly caused the death of Almorra (yes, it was later revealed to be Bangar and Ryland, but that couldn't have happened without the Fraenir directing the Sons of Svanir in Bjora Marches).

Olar, a former member of Braham's Destiny's Edge, betrayed the others and worked with the Sons of Svanir to slaughter Jora's Keep. He was the one who captured Jhavi and Almorra, leading to the Commander being lured into the region by Jormag after Almorra's death. Without Olar, the entire plot of Episode 1 couldn't have happened, since he was the reason Jora's Keep could be wiped out through the Freanir's planning.

I'd say they were all
very
important to the plot of episode 1, even if they had a lack of screen time. Without their presence and roles, the reasoning for events occurring would all have to be changed.That is basically grasping at straws, and that is my point, they are not relevant as a whole to game world. Norn are irrelevant for the most part of the game, even though their whole shtick is making their glorious legend, one would think there should be more reacquiring Norn characters throughout the story but eh. The Icebrood Saga is supposedly the big culmination of the Norn main story, where the spotlight is on them, but all they get is Braham and Jhavi(as exposition npc), a norn shaman that exist as another exposition tool and number of henchmen, which we are told that are scary after the fact.Most of the Bjora story feels like the core story line, where characters exist for a story mission or 2 and then are discarded, and i thought the story has moved on from that.
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@"Vancho.8750" said:That is basically grasping at straws, and that is my point, they are not relevant as a whole to game world.Neither is Malice, Efram, or even Smodur. Or 99% of the charr characters in any of the episodes. I mean, by your skewed definition of relevant ("the player in this case, would care to remember since they add to the story") then there are only two relevant charr in the entire game: Rytlock and Rox. And they'd only be relevant because they have been part of the plot for so long that players can't not remember them.

But Malice, Efram, Smodur, the Steel warband, the Cache champions from the PS - they're all "not relevant as a whole to game world" and in the case of the latter two, "generic bad guy that stops existing as soon as it is put in the play" - at least in the same level of scope as Weibe, the Freanir, and Olar. I would disagree that those three "stopped existing as soon as they were put in play" because, like Joko, they left lasting impacts that continued after death in the narrative.

But the thing is, Weibe, Fraenir, and Olar are all "character that exist as part of the world, with its own goals, ideas and personality" and "can't be replaced with any other random blank character."

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:One thing I think is the main difference between your and my opinion is that you're taking the topics at a bare-bones face value, and not seeing the potential behind the exploration of those topics.This is exactly the reason why I take them the way that I do. Most "potential" lore exploration people think of the same exact same kind of unrealistic stuff people made up about Lazarus and Joko.

Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all? Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters. Why would anything from the past dragon rise have survived there at all besides the creatures themselves? If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences. The cave is not the place to do it, and trying to shove the cave into it just raises more questions then it answers due to its not matching up with what we have already been told about the cave.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:the Pale Tree knew to get the egg to Tarir, and showed us this; but how did she know? it remains unanswered,She knew the egg needed to be taken to a Golden Place she saw in a vision that she gave you also.-How did she get the vision? Same way she gets all the others, the Dream.-What is the Dream? The Sylvari's dragon minion ESP network that has been detached from the Dragon it originally stemmed from.-Why would it have knowledge of that? Same way it does anything else, the Dragons are intrinsically tied to the Mists(as Aurene mentions when we are at the EoTN) The Dream touches the Mists which touch everything.-How did the Pale Tree get purified? Same way Mawdrey did. In fact, I am almost certain the whole point of the Mawdrey collection was to tell us how the Pale Tree was purified, without having to beat us over the head with a verbal explanation. We took a Mordrem seed, and grew it ourselves, and it results in a plant lifeform that isn't hostile or connected to Mord's influence. Ronan and Ventari did the same thing to the Pale Tree, boom. Explanation.

And i've been advocating turning the Pale Tree into a ED replacement for awhile now. We just need Taimi to whip up some sort of giant Dragon energy conductors and jam it into her roots, and start filtering the magic in till she gets the hang of it.

editI also just though of something else. The Pale Tree's story mirrors that of Aurene's immensely. Someone took something directly spawned from an Elder Dragon's "line" so to speak, they formed a connection with it by planting/hatching it and raising it, and both entities turned out "purified" as a result. We know that being severed from an Elder Dragon's mental connection isn't enough on its own, as Glint didn't turn good until she was not only freed from it, but until she read the minds of mortals, and grew to sympathize with their cause. And the bond between mortal and "Dragon" being what allows Aurene to resist temptation/corruption has been a major plot point thus far, likely explaining the Pale Tree/Sylvari's ability to resist as well. This would also be further supported by the Maydrey collection.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:This is exactly the reason why I take them the way that I do. Most "potential" lore exploration people think of the same exact same kind of unrealistic stuff people made up about Lazarus and Joko.Except those villains were underplayed - and to argue otherwise is really silly, especially in Lazarus' case, who was literally filler.

Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all?Because it is only the Forgotten who knew how to purify dragon minions, and what little we know of Ronan's account (all third hand btw) also states that he rushed out of there with the seed - he didn't explore.

Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters.The fact it has what you speculate is mordrem is rather proof that it would have something to show. Why would there be mordrem guarding a cave of purified seeds?

If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences.What stated experiences? There's practically nothing beyond "Ronan stumbled upon a cave that had giant seeds and "terrible plant creatures". It does not establish that was all there was in the cave. It does not establish those plant creatures were mordrem. It does not establish that those plant creatures couldn't communicate or were hostile.

You're now making a lot of assumptions on the cave that we simply do not have the evidence to support.

She knew the egg needed to be taken to a Golden Place she saw in a vision that she gave you also.And in no way is this ever stated. We do not know the limitations of the Pale Tree's knowledge of Tarir, nor do we know that it was a vision she had. She gave us a vision, but that doesn't mean that she had the vision.

-What is the Dream? The Sylvari's dragon minion ESP network that has been detached from the Dragon it originally stemmed from.This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.

-How did the Pale Tree get purified? Same way Mawdrey did. In fact, I am almost certain the whole point of the Mawdrey collection was to tell us how the Pale Tree was purified, without having to beat us over the head with a verbal explanation. We took a Mordrem seed, and grew it ourselves, and it results in a plant lifeform that isn't hostile or connected to Mord's influence. Ronan and Ventari did the same thing to the Pale Tree, boom. Explanation.Mawdrey was "purified" by multiple generations being exposed to a variety of exotic magic that has known anti-dragon minion qualities, such as Foefire magic. Honestly, Mawdrey is a huge ass contradiction in of itself (not uncommon for sylvari lore tbh), but it is firmly established that Ventari and Ronan had no exotic magic or purification rituals and it is firmly established that Malyck's tree is also purified (one seed being purified outside of the cave? reasonable; two seeds? too large of a coincidence), and it is firmly established multiple times even that dragon minions cannot be purified by simply educating and growing a dragon minion.

That's simply not how it works.

If it was, then there was no need for Grymm Svaard to kill his brother who instantly turned on his friends and family the moment he became a dragon minion; if that was the cave, then Sierran's and Trahearne's incident with the risen gorilla wouldn't have happened; if that was the case, then Jora speaking to Svanir would have brought him back to the light; if that was the case then dozens of events and story instances taking place in Orr would be explicitly contradicted.

Dragon corruption is not the Dark Side of the Force. You cannot redeem dragon minions like you can redeem Sith; no amount of Lukes would turn a Mordrem or Branded or whatever Darth Vader to the Light Side.

Besides, "convincing them to turn sides" is not what purifying means in this context. Purifying is the active act of removing the enslavement of their individual will so that people can then convince dragon minions to be jolly good fellows again.

I also just though of something else. The Pale Tree's story mirrors that of Aurene's immensely.It doesn't mirror Aurene's story at all. It's completely different.

Aurene was never corrupted, for starters - nor was Vlast. And this seems to be something you ignored from my previous post.

If the Pale Tree's story mirrors any other story, it is Glint's. But fun fact: Glint was purified by a powerful and extensive ritual, not through the power of love and friendship BS you're convinced it of.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Your comment about the seed cave is exactly what I am referring to. Ronan made no mention of anything being in the cave beside the seed and the plant monsters. Why would there be ANYTHING related to the Forgotten there at all? Same thing about the previous dragon rise. Its a cave, with some seeds, and some Modrem in it, and again, Ronan made no mention of there being anything in the cave besides the seeds and the plant monsters. Why would anything from the past dragon rise have survived there at all besides the creatures themselves? If they want to explore something like the last dragon rise they should do so in a manner that doesn't conflict with Ronan's stated experiences. The cave is not the place to do it, and trying to shove the cave into it just raises more questions then it answers due to its not matching up with what we have already been told about the cave.

The whole premise of the Arah explorable paths is finding artifacts and records from the previous dragonrise, in a location where an Elder Dragon and its minions have been actively seeking to destroy them, either for strategic reasons or just for food - and that's without considering the possibility that the seeds were placed there after Mordremoth went to sleep. And as Konig said, with Ronan having been chased out, he probably didn't have the opportunity to leisurely explore the place for clues.

There's no reason, apart from development time and resources, that ArenaNet couldn't have included the cave, and an event or two investigating it, in order to shed more light on sylvari origins in the expansion that was all about sylvari origins. If the seed was purified by the Forgotten, then we know the Forgotten aren't afraid to leave long-lasting records or other signs of their passing behind: there could have been a plaque that explains what they did, a miniature Altar of Glaust, or a few other artifacts left behind. Perhaps the cave could have been reclaimed by Mordrem by the time we get to it, and the other seeds grown into Blighting Trees, but there would have been storytelling potential there.

Or if it wasn't the Forgotten that did it, there could have been signs of whoever did in there. Maybe the plant guardians were Oakhearts set there by the druids.

Alternatively, if the scenario was one where any changes to the Pale Tree happened somehow after being removed from the cave, that could also have been shown. We could have an event chain where the cave is a nursery for Blighting Tree seeds and seedlings until a suitable permanent planting location is found for them, and sometime during the event chain, a sylvari has the shocking realisation that this is the cave.

Instead, the Pale Tree having been purified is (apparently, I haven't got my copy yet) mentioned casually in the art book. Given ArenaNet's preference for the game to be the primary source, this probably means that they're just not planning to go back. Personally, I have a suspicion that it might have been the golden cave at the end of Season 2 (with Ronan having entered via a different route than the door, back during a time when the region was still the Silverwood), but we didn't get the opportunity to explore that in detail either.

And this is just one example. ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that there was a lot that had to be left on the cutting room floor simply because they ran out of time. And it shows. The Heart of Thorns story pretty much has the beats that have to be there for the story to make sense or to set up the plot moving forward and... not much else.

Of course, to bring this back to the topic, this does not mean that just because there were a lot of missed opportunities with the sylvari, that the norn should also be neglected in the context of a storyline focused around Jormag and the northern Shiverpeaks. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all, and ArenaNet has hopefully learned some lessons since then.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:If the Pale Tree's story mirrors any other story, it is Glint's. But fun fact: Glint was purified by a powerful and extensive ritual, not through the power of love and friendship BS you're convinced it of.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:There's no reason, apart from development time and resources, that ArenaNet couldn't have included the cave, and an event or two investigating it, in order to shed more light on sylvari origins in the expansion that was all about sylvari origins. If the seed was purified by the Forgotten, then we know the Forgotten aren't afraid to leave long-lasting records or other signs of their passing behind: there could have been a plaque that explains what they did, a miniature Altar of Glaust, or a few other artifacts left behind. Perhaps the cave could have been reclaimed by Mordrem by the time we get to it, and the other seeds grown into Blighting Trees, but there would have been storytelling potential there.I think both of you have gotten so hung up on the ritual that you have missed the point of it.

As mentioned in "Hidden Arcana" and later expanded upon in "Crystalline Memories", all the ritual did was allow Glint to think for herself. She didn't turn good because of it. In fact, she stayed loyal to Kralk for some time after. It was only after using her mind reading powers to hear the thoughts of the other races that she switched sides. The point of the ritual is to free an enslaved minion's mind so it has the CHANCE to turn good. Actually being good is based on sympathy.

Here's the thing though... the Pale Tree was a seed, seeds don't have minds to be enthralled, they are just seeds. The seeds could have turned into a Blighting Tree, had Mordremoth been awake to direct it so, but he wasn't. The Pale Tree wouldn't need the Forgotten's Ritual because it never had a mind to be enthralled, much less a mind needing to be un-enthralled. And its also explicitly stated that the Grove is far enough away from Mordremoth that its voice barely makes it out that far, which is why the Sylvari there didn't turn when Mordremoth awakened. So it never had a risk of being corrupted like Svanir was despite Jormag being asleep. All the Pale Tree would need is to develop the same sympathy Glint and Aurene needed to, which Ronan and Ventari provided.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.That is literally what I just said Konig.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:Of course, to bring this back to the topic, this does not mean that just because there were a lot of missed opportunities with the sylvari, that the norn should also be neglected in the context of a storyline focused around Jormag and the northern Shiverpeaks. Two wrongs don't make a right, after all, and ArenaNet has hopefully learned some lessons since then.There's really not much left needed to be expanded upon. As I listed out earlier, by this point in the IBS we have already

  • Gotten episodes around Wolf and Raven, and learned our "lessons" from them.
  • Learned what happened to the Lost Spirits of the Wild, and, at least temporarily, freed them from Jormag's influence
  • Learned more about Asgier's battle with Jormag, and the "shocking" truth behind it, and the Norn's movement south
  • Had Javi lead an attack on Drakkar, and beat the beast in combat, earning her family its much needed revenge
  • Killed the Fraenir, the highest of the Svanir
  • Learned about Braham's failed attempt to kill Jormag, and the group he went with.

At this point we just need Bear and Snow Leopard based episodes(and maybe something with Owl somehow), and for Braham to fulfill his role as Asgeir 2.0, which Anet is heavily setting him up to be, and then Anet will have fulliled the needed Norn lore. Which, given how many episodes we have left for IBS(not a lot), they could do that, and finish up the charr civil war plot, just in time for the final battle.

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Your analysis of the ritual is correct - it allows the cleansed creature to make their own choices, rather than being forced to be loyal to the dragon.

However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.

If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at all - the closest we're likely to get is the southern Verdant Brink region. Casually dropping it into the art book seems to be an implicit admission that they knew it was something that people wanted to know that they might never actually get around to putting in the game directly - because the best time to have done so has passed.

With respect to the context in which this discussion started, it doesn't really matter which side is right. The point is that it's still a point of contention years after the sylvari-themed storyline was done and dusted.

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I do hope we'll see more recurring norn characters besides Braham and Jhavi in the saga as the story progresses. While we've had some intriguing one-offs like Olar, Torrin and the Fraenir in the story (and Weibe in open world meta; I'd love to see the other havrouns as well as Bear's new havroun in the saga too), I'm missing the involvement of our norn friends from the three orders as well as the Whitebear family who now have an even bigger stake than before once/if they learn about the troubling revelations found in the journal of Knut's grandfather Asgeir.

At least on the charr side Smodur, Malice and Efram are receiving more development for the time being although I wouldn't mind seeing more charr characters making appearances such as the Blood Legion Tribune Fierhan Sparwind (I assume he rebelled with Crecia against Bangar, or would he have sided with his Imperator's Dominion because of his views on Blood Legion's purpose?) and the so far unseen but seemingly popular Iron Legion Tribune Fume Brighteye who was said to be opposed to the Ebonhawke Treaty due to a tragic backstory involving her sire. It would be fun to see Fume try to steal the Claw of the Khan-Ur from the Black Citadel and either deliver it to Bangar to further his ambition of becoming Khan-Ur, or her trying to seize the artifact for herself in a bid to replace Smodur as the new Iron Imperator given what we learn about Fume's ambitions in NPC dialogue.

I'd also love to see more development on Bangar's sleeper agents/moles within the three orders and if the Priory agents may attempt to steal the Sanguinary Blade, forged from Jormag's frozen blood which may end up being effective against Jormag, from the Priory's vaults so Bangar (or whoever becomes Jormag's ultimate champion) can wield that rimeblade against Rytlock's fiery Sohothin in a clash of Flame and Frost.

I'd be sad if the charr sleeper agent existence would be brushed over as quickly as the human White Mantle spies in the three orders were during Season 3; there's lots of cool plots of intrigue to be had if we don't know which of our charr allies from the orders is revealed as a Bangar loyalist. Likewise, I'd love to see some interaction between Malice and Evon Gnashblade given Evon's past missions as an Ash Legion agent and his original reason for starting a business at Lion's Arch; would Evon be happy about aiding his Imperator, or will he try to distance himself from his Ash Legion agent days?

As for more notable norn involvement, I've written at length about how the "Whitebear Saga" might turn out regarding the foreshadowed prophecy about Knut Whitebear's death (or Jormag at least tempting his bloodline as the wording of the prophecy is intriguingly vague when it mentions "...and the muttering voices will call for his blood."), the destiny of Knut's sons Skarti and the increasingly disillusioned and reckless Sigfast (whose anger, doubt and feelings of self-worth could lead to him becoming a mighty fine pawn for Jormag who would no doubt want to taint Asgeir's bloodline should the shocking truth about Asgeir's deal reach Sigfast's ears and shatter his view about his family's legend), and Knut's so far unseen legendary wife Gaerta Whitebear, the Bane of Lies who is currently adventuring in the north while building her legend. I hope we at least explore the family somewhat by the time we tackle with the masteries of Bear if not before.

I wouldn't be opposed seeing more recurring norn than just the Whitebears make an appearance if the pacing of the story allows for it, however. There are lots of friendly norn faces from past storylines that the writers could use, or they could create brand new ones (beyond the potential in-game appearance of Gaerta herself in the flesh) to add more worldbuilding for the norn as a whole. :)

@"draxynnic.3719" said:If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

Here's the relevant quote from page 158:

Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent. She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origin.

The wording ''sapling of the Elder Dragon" here almost seems to imply, to me, that the Pale Tree (and thus Malyck's Tree and possibly the Tower of Nightmares if it did turn out to have also originated from the same batch of seeds) may be considered a scion of Mordremoth in a way. It would be interesting to find out if this is the case as that would make Pale Tree and Malyck's Tree candicacy as Mordremoth's dual replacements even more potent in case the connection between them and the Elder Dragon goes deeper than just being minion factories.

@"draxynnic.3719" said:But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation. As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at all - the closest we're likely to get is the southern Verdant Brink region. Casually dropping it into the art book seems to be an implicit admission that they knew it was something that people wanted to know that they might never actually get around to putting in the game directly - because the best time to have done so has passed.

What's interesting to me about the art book quote is that it doesn't specify how the Pale Tree was purified. The devs could've easily just flat out stated that she was purified by the Forgotten (or some other source) but they chose to leave the idea a mystery for now. Given how Matthew Medina is back at the studio and had a sizable (and well-received) pitch for continuing Malyck's story, maybe the writers could use that story thread to answer some of the unresolved questions from HoT and Season 2, especially if the Trees end up being scions of Mordremoth and thus even greater candidates as replacements (so Pale Tree could take over Mordremoth's Mind domain while Malyck's Tree could take over the Plant domain).

This story could not only explore the origins of Dream and Nightmare by tying it to how Malyck's Tree may have a different Dream given Malyck's lack of our Dream, and whether Malyck's people were shielded from Mordremoth during HoT or not. We don't know why Malyck's people appear humanoid; given the implications of Pale Tree choosing a human shape for Grove sylvari, it suggests that Malyck's Tree must've either seen humans passing by or was planted on another human grave site to use these concepts as templates for her sylvari.

Given how both Trees were apparently purified while the Pale Tree had Ventari's Tablet and other positive memories to guide her development towards goodness, it should be interesting to find out if Malyck's Tree likewise had some positive influence (based on how Malyck was still being relatively noble even if a bit more bloodthirsty than the average Dreamer) or if the Tree would've become a morally neutral entity as opposed to the good Pale Tree (and the evilly raised Tower of Nightmares if its ties to the Blighting Tree family are ever confirmed beyond hints). We might even learn where Scarlet acquired the Tower of Nightmares seed from as its existence was heavily tied to Mordremoth's influence via music and visuals.

Depending on if Malyck's Tree is located in that unexplored patch of land east of Tangled Depths or somewhere else (given the odd way the river led Malyck's pod to Brisban Wildlands), the devs could even tie his absence from HoT to the SCAR meta from Tangled Depths. During that meta we stopped the Mordrem march east to invade Central Tyria, but we nevertheless saw hundreds of Mordrem escaping us unscathed. And yet these Mordrem never appeared in Metrica Province or Rata Sum en masse, so something or someone must've stopped their advance while we lorewise spent over a month fighting Mordremoth and his minions in the jungle. It would be easy enough to explain that these Mordrem entered the territory of Malyck's Tree and fought a fierce battle against Malyck's people, and thus Malyck never returned with an army to aid us while ironically ensuring that his people's actions did in fact save the asura from a massive Mordrem invasion. Besides, I'd just want that ugly gap in the world map between Metrica and TD to be filled by a zone one day. Perhaps this location could be close to the cave Ronan found the seeds in as nice lore fanservice. ;)

The story could also explore the fates of the two missing Firstborn whose appearances were teased during the Blighted Pale Tree battle in "Hearts and Minds". During that battle we saw Blighted versions of our known Firstborn as well as one unknown female Firstborn Sniper and two unknown male Firstborn Tormentors. Given how post-torture Malomedies doesn't appear in the instance, it's reasonable to assume that one of those male unknown Firstborn (likely the more scholarly-looking one) portrays what Malomedies looked like before he was tortured by the asura. As we haven't seen the missing male and female Firstborn in the Grove (nor are their names ever revealed to us), it's likely that they're on an adventure out there. We could easily see at least one of them appear in the Malyck storyline, perhaps having discovered Malyck's Grove and learning from him about his adventures with Caithe, Trahearne and the Valiant. I wouldn't be opposed if we saw the other unknown Firstborn appear in the Icebrood Saga as who knows what adventures one of these Firstborn might be having in the frozen north although at times point a new sylvari hero appearing in the saga seems highly unlikely.

This plot could explore the fate of the Unchained Mordrem and the rest of the Mordrem Guard since Mordremoth's demise and if some Unchained Mordrem champions have risen to lead these unhinged remnants. So far we've only met the one Solitary Sylvari in Labyrinthe Cliffs who claims he still feels Mordremoth in his head while he's trying to atone, and the teases that one, but the fate of the Mordrem Guard as a whole is unknown. Did any of them choose to embrace Mordremoth even after the dragon's demise? Did most of them return to Central Tyria to seek forgiveness from the rest of the sylvari and other races? Perhaps these Mordrem could still be threatening Malyck's Tree, thus explaining what kinds of enemies we'd face in the new zone.

We could likewise learn more about the Nightmare Court splinter groups (Duchess Chrysanthea's faction and otherwise) that formed since Faolain's demise, and we might finally learn why the Nightmare Court were in the Heart of Maguuma to begin with during HoT and what Faolain had been doing in the years between Twilight Arbor ending and HoT. We could have some juicy and flirty dialogue with Chrysanthea while learning about the more "honorable" courtiers who might uphold the late Gavin's ideals while we'd also battle more bloodthirsty courtiers. It could be an uneasy alliance as we'd be unsure if it's wise to install a new and seemingly more benevolent Grand Duchess (Chrysanthea) to sway the court as a whole or if we're being played in a complex game of intrigue as Chrysanthea manipulates us by appearing as kind. It would likewise be fascinating to find out how these court factions reacted to the existence of Malyck's Tree now that we live in the post-Mordremoth-reveal world where the court has to come to terms with their original destiny as intended dragon minions. Could Malyck and Chrysanthea ever learn to set aside their differences and learn to coexist despite the court's troubled history with the Nightmare Harbinger Malyck?

Finally, the biggest reason for us to explore the Malyck's Tree storyline would be the potential tie-in to the narrative's golden path which is about dealing with the Elder Dragon threat and fulfilling Glint's Legacy to balance the All. We know that Glint and the Forgotten intended to replace the Elder Dragons with six benevolent entities, but we never learned about any other replacements beyond Vlast, Aurene and likely Glint herself. So if everything had gone according to plan, who did Glint intend the three other balancers to be? The saltsprays Albax, Kuunavang, Shiny, or someone else (this could also be a tie-in to Canthan expansion as the Zephyrites were implied to have visited Cantha during the time they fetched the egg that contained Aurene from someone, likely Vlast...Ogden really needs to tell us the identity of the being that spoke with the Master of Peace back then)?

Assuming that we can't just ring up the ghosts of Glint and Vlast to become ED replacements (or could their ghosts actually fulfill the purpose?), Aurene can't handle all the six dragons' twelve domains by herself. We also can't kill any more EDs without destroying Tyria, so Jormag has an advantage over us in the conflict. We thus need replacements for Zhaitan and Mordremoth ASAP. Depending on if the Pale Tree is still too weak to take on all of Mordy's magic, perhaps she could share it with Malyck's Tree, thus the Trees taking one domain each to lessen the burden of magic on themselves. This would then necessitate revisiting Malyck's story to find out if his Tree is a viable candidate for the Legacy project or if the Tree is too bloodthirsty or unpredictable (depending on if she's a neutral entity) to become a replacement. If the story went in this direction, it would also open up juicy lore opportunities to explore how the other races reacted to the idea of the Pale Tree gaining Mordy's power, especially as there are still people out there who view the sylvari with suspicion as revealed in Jora's Keep ambient dialogue.

All in all, the story practically writes itself from here with lots of fun exploration of sylvari topics and the greater narrative thread itself while also tying up some loose threads from sylvari personal story and HoT. :)

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IMO, this story is mostly about the subtle influence of Jormag influencing the Charr like it did the Norn many years ago. The Charr are now in a mega cat-fight, this civil war caused by Jormag's manipulations. Every seen a real cat-fight? It's only Party A and Party B. The Norn at this point seem to be a wiser race since they've lived with the influence of Jormag, so they tend to be in a STRONG support role.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.Beings like Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were already entities that existed before the dragons went to sleep, and were already corrupted before that time. And the destroyers themselves are just magical constructs, and not sentient entities corrupted by dragon influence. The seeds were neither corrupted one way or another, nor were they sentient entities to be corrupted. Its a different situation in its entirety.But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.As is, I'm pretty sure that ArenaNet has moved on to other parts of the story and I don't think there's much prospect of going back to the jungle any time in the next few years if at allYou really don't need to go to the jungle at all to deal with a Pale Tree origin story. It could be revealed as anything from something the Pale Tree saw in a vision, to something Aurene figures out due to being an Elder Dragon. Or an Anet dev could just point to Mawdrey and be like "dats it guyz"@Kossage.9072 said:I'd also love to see more development on Bangar's sleeper agents/moles within the three orders and if the Priory agents may attempt to steal the Sanguinary Blade, forged from Jormag's frozen blood which may end up being effective against Jormag, from the Priory's vaults so Bangar (or whoever becomes Jormag's ultimate champion) can wield that rimeblade against Rytlock's fiery Sohothin in a clash of Flame and Frost.I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.

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