Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.

[reddie.5861]

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

dont wannabe a asshat, but burn guards are useless and necro's arent even top dps..

think blob wise im pretty sure if using proper builds and setups itsele > scrapper > thief > reaper > rev > then maybe necro

top of that arcdps is so useless i mean a thief for example could be lowest DPS but might have downed the most people cus its spike with vault is way beyond a point that most classes can even pull off. does that mean a necro is still better? or burn guard?ur over time ticks and crap might look all good but spike is shit.

this why i always insist on arcdps is useless in WvW... some people with 0 dps could make a different in the fight while all people with arcdps are getting all horny over all top dps stats and they are like woaa gotta reroll into X class to do mad dmg also.

[avey.4201]

balance is trash atm, but arc is a pve meter, top dps != top kills != win fight != contributing to your teampve meter wont teach anything about pvp

[ArchonWing.9480]

Top deeps means nothing if you die in the first 5 seconds of the fight. It also doesn't mean anything if you lose. Also if you're just dpsing a keep lord that's also silly.

However, assuming people are comparing oranges to oranges and running the same builds (eg comparing different scourges), it's a bit silly to attribute the discrepancies due to dpsing downed players. Maybe it's a sign people aren't running the right builds. There's of course many aspects to a fight.

Also Bomb Kit engi is good...

[Elementalist Owner.7802]

Right now there is more build diversity in large scale WvW fights than ever before, so idk why you're complaining about balance now. Weavers and revs can easily out-DPS burn guards, and the fights have been very enjoyable -- this is coming from someone who plays support spellbreaker, dps spellbreaker, power rev, power scourge, support scrapper, and support firebrand.Even ranger has a place in the meta with the very strong immob build that people are running these days. The real balance issues are now in sPvP and small scale fights.

The biggest problem facing WvW is the lack of population. They need to do something big to bring people back to the game.

[SWI.4127]

People are disregarding DPS numbers way too much. No they don't tell the whole story, but chances are if someone is near the top of the DPS meter, then they are dropping their damage at the correct times. Otherwise they probably would have wasted their skills hitting aegis, fully buffed up enemies and doing very little. If damage is coordinated with corrupts and CC, they're going to be hitting people with stripped boons and usually doing a lot more damage by hitting multiple people at once. Are there some top DPSers with padded numbers? I'm sure it happens. Usually isn't not the case though assuming you have NPC and gadget damage turned off.

[Chaba.5410]

@SWI.4127 said:People are disregarding DPS numbers way too much. No they don't tell the whole story, but chances are if someone is near the top of the DPS meter, then they are dropping their damage at the correct times.

Exactly. A scourge isn't going to be doing much damage if the player is just placing wells on one or two guys when wells are off cooldown.

[OscLin.7253]

What crap zerg were you in? Neither scourge nor burn guard should be top dps in a zerg.

[nthmetal.9652]

@enkidu.5937 said:What it doesnt show is who generates downstates? E. g. Burn guard is good in cleaving that downies, but dependent on the enemy cleanse coverage, you can either down a bunch of ppl at once when they stand around a cata and dont pay attention, or you can be a deliverer for aegis :#

What it also doesnt show is tactical damage. Burn guard and Necro spread their damage quite unspecificly, so if you want to down the SpB who is rushing in, or focus down FBs, free casters, or low HPs that retreat to the backline, you are better off with ranger or thief.

What it also doesnt show is presure damage. I imagine this should not be put aside easily. In this one-push Meta, you want to trigger cooldowns on the big skills before or between the pushes. Otherwise the enemy will just use the necessary skills when they push. Spreading out unspecific AoE damage outside a coordinated bomb might not be enough to trigger those big skills, cause its just too thinned out among too many enemies. But what if you can focus one specific target and get it low HP or loaded with a condi bomb? The support classes in that subgroup have a problem then: waste big skills on that one single player, or lose that player and save the big skills for the push?

While much of that is true, over the sum of a zerg, part of this line of thinking is irrelevant.Yes, AoE damage is spread unspecificly by a single guard or necro, but over the sum of a group, if a bomb is dropped, it is dropped all on the same group, dealing massive damage and conditions to the group.Where thieves and rangers each focus one target and down it, the guards and necros, when dropping a bomb don't only deal more damage. They also down more people. Only when you look at a single guard or necro, of if your AoE casters cannot coordinate their bombs does their damage not also equal downs.

That said, there are professions, which are better in roaming and smallscale, and there are professions, which are better large scale. But if only really two professions take top DPS large scale, I'd still follow the reasoning of the OP that we do indeed have a balancing problem. Specific builds allowing for variance in playstyles across one professions should be a lot more relevant. I would love to see more and harder work on Anet's side to enable us the character we really want to play, in the situation we want to play them in.

[Nimon.7840]

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

Must have been a lot of incompetent players you played with. Revs should do more damage than necro, same goes for engis (depending on playstyle of the group)Yesterday we went full melee with our public, and an engi did double the amount of damage than second placed rev.

In that regard, yes. Not balanced.

I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Yep overperforming build right now. Yet anet somehow thought that a 0,5 second nerf on burn duration of one trait would be enough.

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

[Nimon.7840]

@Talindra.4958 said:just because people play necro more because necro master of spamming skills and easy to play. weaver and rev etc other prof can reach the top on the arcdps meter too. its called meta people running.

I wouldn't say that necro is easy to play. I see it every day that people are extremely bad on playing a supposedly easy to play class.

[Junkpile.7439]

Pro tip is to take headstart. Attack before blob attack. Enemy don't wanna waste skills one dude so you can ramp up damage before fight even starts.

[thealbatross.6853]

Half of the people I've seen bragging about their burn guard and it's deeps don't sort their stats to exclude NPCs and objects. I remember quite vividly one dude bragging about his burn dh when 80% of the damage went to rams. Against organized groups that burn and vuln is getting ez converted into aegis and protection unless you outnumber them. Which is why you don't see them used in great numbers in gvgs. It's great against pugs, unorganized blobs, and PPT groups though.

[Chimerical.4917]

This thread was a wonderful litmus test to see which apes were actually running dire/trailblazer proudly. Please learn what high risk / high reward means and kindly turn it into your life mantra instead of being the cowards you actually are.

[Chimerical.4917]

Permeating Wrath just needs to get the Dhuumfire treatment to end all the hype on such a 4head faceroll build:

1s ICD in pve, 5s ICD in WvW. I'll even settle for 1s ICD in WvW at this point. But Permeating Wrath is literally the only thing carrying burn guard at all.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

@MokoToko.6890 said:Permeating Wrath just needs to get the Dhuumfire treatment to end all the hype on such a 4head faceroll build:

1s ICD in pve, 5s ICD in WvW. I'll even settle for 1s ICD in WvW at this point. But Permeating Wrath is literally the only thing carrying burn guard at all.

Rather they nerf reflects because they have uncapped targets, and redo the zeal trait for spirit weapons. Half the spirit weapons don't fully benefit from tier 3 trait (only hammer and sword can apply burn for example).

The rate of burn application on symbols is stable. But the spinny-spirit-sword when traited and reflects are ridiculous.

D:

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a shit ton of burst. Scrapper is op, perma stealth thief is cancer, druid is op, condition damage has flipped again. Not one bloody person at Anet cares they've not commented on anything for months. Sick of all of it sick of all the broken promises like alliances, new xpack, regular balance, lies all bloody lies!

[Dawdler.8521]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a kitten ton of burst.And I will assume that in your scenario the scrapper also instantly killed the 5 with a single AoE and went OOC in a second, mounted up and stomped all 5.

Because if he instead could do nothing well he wasnt very usefull, was he.

[Voltekka.2375]

The amount of "oh, this is again a l2p issue..." is huge in this thread...

[Aeolus.3615]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@aaron.7850 said:Installed ArcDPS for the first time and did wvw all day long with different guilds and groups.80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians. 15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.

Must have been a lot of incompetent players you played with. Revs should do more damage than necro, same goes for engis (depending on playstyle of the group)Yesterday we went full melee with our public, and an engi did double the amount of damage than second placed rev.

In that regard, yes. Not balanced.

I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).

Yep overperforming build right now. Yet anet somehow thought that a 0,5 second nerf on burn duration of one trait would be enough.

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it. Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes. Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.

burn stacks atm are overperforming, the moment one cleanse a instant 8k tick u receive a similiar burns stack fright after,Range gamplay is overperforming above melee combat, atm theres to much gapm due how range classes easilly can avoind mellee, due mobiulity and necro stacking that will counter melee groups.

WvW atm is who as more aoe spam(more necros) wins.

TIts a very sluguish combat...

[ASP.8093]

@Vlad Morbius.1759 said:Balance is horrid, i watched a scrapper survive 5 people including a zerker with a kitten ton of burst. Scrapper is op, perma stealth thief is cancer, druid is op, condition damage has flipped again. Not one bloody person at Anet cares they've not commented on anything for months. Sick of all of it sick of all the broken promises like alliances, new xpack, regular balance, lies all bloody lies!

Were you the zerker?

Did you miss your burst?

[Sovereign.1093]

Arc dps = your damage x no. Of people hit

Apply it to heals and cleans also.

What it does show is the amount of ae a certain class can dish.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from

attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

[Sovereign.1093]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from

attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

What sort of invul though, I ask since if you pop endure pain, you still receive damage from conditions. All warriors can testify this.

Maybe invul in terms of ri? Or staying in spawn?

[Winter.5071]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:

@ASP.8093 said:

@hobotnicax.7918 said:Are you sure about that? Blocks, invuls, basic dodge, reflects, blinds all hard counter power damage. Not even gonna go into protection.

Everything on your list except Protection also counters most sources of condition damage. Because condition damage still comes from

attacks hitting you.

Yes, but once conditions are on you, blocks, invuls etc do jack sh it, one is left with either cleanse or resistance.

Invulns block all damage, including conditions that are already on you as well

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Invulnerability

What sort of invul though, I ask since if you pop endure pain, you still receive damage from conditions. All warriors can testify this.

Maybe invul in terms of ri? Or staying in spawn?

Endure pain is not an invuln, it is a Damage Prevention skill as the wiki states. The wiki also lists all of the skills that apply invuln.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.