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Wasn't the Icebrood Saga supposed to be about Norn and Charr and not about just the Charr ?


Vancho.8750

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I think we'll be concluding the Charr bit pretty soon. Perhaps even during the release of the second half of Drizzlewood next episode. We may still have a few pieces here and there resolving the leadership after that, but I think we'll be concluding Bangar and Ryland's involvement pretty soon.

I had really hoped going into this season that we would have a lot more lore development on certain things. Hoped to see a bunch of Jotun/Norn/Spirit lore exploring new areas with a few unexpected things in between. I.e. The mysterious rune area that we had in GW1 related to the facets and such.

I'm still hoping for that as we move into areas in the North we haven't been before.

I like Charr but I'd be far more interested in learning about their origin story and the resolution of the Foefire than be involved in their militant-focused politics. It's just not overly interesting to me and doesn't feel like something anyone other than a Charr should be involved with. I'm sure the same could be said about some of the human-centric political plots we've had in the past, or the forced joining of The Shining Blade.

The plot so far has felt like a really drab mixture of House of Cards and Game of Thrones, with emphasis on politics. I guess I'd just rather learn about the origin of the Spirits and ancient magics or the interworkings of The All and the mists.

Perhaps it's yet again an issue of the delivery method of the episodes. Even "closer" together it's hard for me personally to get excited about a bunch of episodes that feel like they aren't as impactful without being played back to back within the same time frame. With them being released every few months it just feels like I've been constantly waiting for something to happen, and we're just now getting the reveal of the "Frost Legion" that we were already expecting anyway?

On top of that the plot is extremely focused and short to begin with. Last season we had the introduction of the Olmakhan and where are they now during all of this Charr mess? Where is Rox?

Where is 90% of our guild? It's just Rhytlock, Crecia, Bangar, and Ryland. I imagine Jora will show up next episode, and potentially Braham, but Majory and Kas, Canach, Taimi, everyone seems to have just been ghosted from the plot. I don't know if this is because of the lay offs last year and certain people not being there anymore or if they're just really wanting a more focused plot.

I was also hoping the Visions of the Past would be an exciting opportunity similar to fractals to get completely different viewpoints and historical perspective. I.e. We play as Aesgir and live his interaction with Jormag firsthand. We play as a Kodan far back in history or some Norn during their exodus. We play as a Jotun during the height of their civilization, or learn more about the scroll that Braham used on Eir's bow and how it got where it did.

But it seems like it's just going to be as focused as the rest of the story and only exist to move the plot forward or introduce something for the next episode.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:As mentioned in "Hidden Arcana" and later expanded upon in "Crystalline Memories", all the ritual did was allow Glint to think for herself. She didn't turn good because of it. In fact, she stayed loyal to Kralk for some time after. It was only after using her mind reading powers to hear the thoughts of the other races that she switched sides. The point of the ritual is to free an enslaved minion's mind so it has the CHANCE to turn good. Actually being good is based on sympathy.

Here's the thing though... the Pale Tree was a seed, seeds don't have minds to be enthralled, they are just seeds.

Trees also don't have minds to be enthralled, yet here we are. The seed becomes the tree, as in being the same entity - little different than a caterpillar becoming a butterfly - it isn't a shell or cocoon or, for a more mordrem analogy, a pod; and even if it was, the would-be tree inside would have a mind, just like the unhatched Aurene did, and mordrem/sylvari inside pods do. So your analogy there is off.

And yes, I'm aware that the ritual only gave Glint free will - as I said in my previous post, that's what purifying is. Similar happens to the Unchained in Siren's Landing, as we can see with the Gargantuan Grub. So, to clarify my previous statements, yes, Ronan and Ventari's actions did indeed influence the Pale Tree - there is no denying this. But seed or not, the Pale Tree was still a dragon minion, and that means it would be enthralled to Mordremoth's will, even if it was a seed. The Complete Art of Guild Wars book confirms that the Pale Tree was "purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent" (page 158). If it was just a matter of nurture, don't you think that such would have been stated instead of confirming a purification and keeping the how a mystery?

By claiming that it would have become a Blighting Tree otherwise, is nothing short of your speculation that you're trying to pass as a fact. A piece of speculation which simply is unprovable and even supported to be false. It also just doesn't make sense even without support against it, because of what I first stated.

It "never had a risk of being corrupted" because it already was corrupted. If it wasn't corrupted, then it would have become a Stonewood tree instead (assuming the implications from S2 and HoT are correct about what Blighting Trees were pre-corruption).

This is actually highly suggested to be incorrect. Even Mordremoth was only abusing the Dream - it did not originate from him.That is literally what I just said Konig.No, you said that the Dream is a piece of Mordremoth's hive mind that broke off while he slept. This argument means that the Dream originates from Mordremoth.

But by all evidence, it does not. And neither does the Nightmare.

There's really not much left needed to be expanded upon. As I listed out earlier, by this point in the IBS we have alreadyIf we kept to a bare bones plot (this refers to both the main story and open world, mind you), then you'd be correct; however, you'll find that most people disagree with you. You're in the superminority when it comes to preferring bare bone plots.

We've learned plenty, but there's several times more to learn.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:No-one knew of a remaining egg until it was convenient for the plot for there to be one.Except anyone who played GW1 and saw Glint's eggs.Also, "No other Elder Dragons have known literal children, nor seem to be in the mood to have them" that's a lot of speculation.Nothing about that is speculation. None of the Elder Dragons we have encountered, which is all of them except Bubbles at this point, have made any sort of verbal or physical desire to have children. And the uniqueness of Glint, and her children, has been a major plot point throughout the game thus far.Good thing we did too, given that she hatched not long after! Wow, what a coincidence!Nothing about what you described was coincidental. Glint's whole master plan was to use herself and her children to replace the Elder Dragons. Her children would, you know, have to be hatched to do so. They constantly hammer in that Glint planned most of this out ages ago. If its part of a plan, it isn't coincidental.What's the source for them having recreated it and that being the reason for its existence?Literally all of episode two of LWS4, and part of episode 3 as well. Gorrik even going after how they found ancient samples(aka dead scarabs) and have been trying to recreate it. Its even a big deal in Long Live the Lich where Gorrik mentions that the scarabs Joko used to attack Amnoon where not the full scarab plague, but only 2nd generation scarabs, and he would need the third generation ones to actually do so. And he only got that at the end of Long Live the Lich because he first used the Inquest to make the first generation scarabs, and then used awakened Inquest to make the 2nd and 3rd generation ones

I don't really agree with the Children bit. As the Elder Dragon plot has progressed we've been seeing more and more personality from the elder dragons and learning more about their motives and thoughts. When we were dealing with Zhaitan we just thought he was an evil baddy. When we learned about Mordremoth we got hints from him about the impact of us challenging him, i.e. the imbalance during the Dragon Stand meta fight. After we killed him we learned about their connection to Tyria and their purpose. Then Kralk comes, we fight him, and we learn about the torment that drove him to behave the way he did. We learn he has a family and care for said family.

Until we found out the importance of keeping Kralk alive the plot with the elder dragons didn't need to be any more complicated than simply killing them. Know we know their importance, and thanks to Kralk and Aurene that they're more than just forces of nature and actually sentient methodical creatures.

We don't even know WHY Jormag wants to connect with Aurene. For all we know it could be for procreation purposes as Jormag is non-binary and again, we don't know how they reproduce.

Sure, it could be because it was Kralk, Aurene, and Glint, but we could just as easily learn something from Jormag about children/family/scions and even more on the origin of the elder dragons in general. We don't even know how the Elder Dragons reproduce.

I just think at this point in Guild Wars 2, assuming ANYTHING solid about Elder Dragons is kind of a fool's errand. The writers can change direction at anytime and given previous Guild Chats it seems that they don't even entirely have their own direction for them mapped out. They might have some vague overarching plot outline, but it seems like the vast majority of the details are made up as meshed together however they see fit.

We haven't really had any need to learn about more Scions because we've already had Aurene. Now that she's ascended and more connected she might lead us to more.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:If the art book specifies that the Pale Tree was cleansed in the past, then that answers it. Every independent dragon minion that we know of would then have been either cleansed, or the result of the dragon outright dying rather than simply going to sleep (and the latter seems rare enough - we had the giant grub in Siren's Landing, but all the other "Unchained" still seem to be pretty much universally hostile).

To quote the entire passage on page 158:"Before Mordremoth's onslaught, the world didn't know that the Pale Tree was once a sapling of the Elder Dragon. She was purified, somehow, and is remarkably benevolent. She sought to protect her young from the grasp of her maker, and so she kept the sylvari ignorant of their origin."

It not only confirms she was purified - though lacks on what did it - thus indicating that she was indeed enthralled to his will at some point, but it also hints that the Pale Tree and other seeds in the cave (maybe all Blighting Trees) may be Mordremoth's scion in the same way Glint is Kralkatorrik's scion.

[EDIT: I see Kossage explained pretty much the same stuff.]

With respect to the context in which this discussion started, it doesn't really matter which side is right. The point is that it's still a point of contention years after the sylvari-themed storyline was done and dusted.Pretty much this, and on all of the loose plot threads that Sajuuk has a big habit of saying "it's not important" for the plots we tend to get.

I mean, take a look at the Renegade-Bangar connection created, both at the end of Bound by Blood and with Ajax. Without the former, then we would have continued asking that question of where the Renegades were getting their funding, and if they were still an issue despite ANet confirming they were in that one weapon collection they added (side note: interesting that they confirm Separatists are still an issue in Bound by Blood, despite losing their funding from Caudecus and the White Mantle). But since ANet added in that simple handful of lines, we're not asking what the situation is anymore - we know the situation; the Renegades formed the original brunt of Bangar's army to take on Jormag. They are all but gone or part of the Dominion now.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.I disagree about the comparison to Lazarus and Joko. In this case, we're getting some lore on the Pale Tree, who has had her fair share of screen time. There wouldn't be an issue about the depth of going into this topic, because the sheer revelation would be sufficient (as you suggest); the attention a specific piece of backstory gets is entirely different from the screentime a major lore figure gets.

Take, for example, the Halloween collection on Joko's past. The only issue anyone has about it, is that it doesn't explain how Joko became a lich. There's nothing about lacking any expectation - because expectations are tied to what gets revealed and how much screentime characters get, and now how much screentime a revelation has.

In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.

You really don't need to go to the jungle at all to deal with a Pale Tree origin story. It could be revealed as anything from something the Pale Tree saw in a vision, to something Aurene figures out due to being an Elder Dragon. Or an Anet dev could just point to Mawdrey and be like "dats it guyz"You do realize that ANet pointing to Mawdrey as an excuse for how the Pale Tree got purified is basically them saying "the Pale Tree is the third generation of mordrem that got fed an abhorrent amount of exotic magic from across central Tyria" which, btw, we know didn't happen unless it happened in the previous dragonrise.

I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.I would be surprised if it was mentioned there either. Its such a non-starter of a solution due to its corruption of its wielder(which was the whole point of its narrative in the first place) that I would be amazed if anyone even considered using it.

I mean, take a look at the Renegade-Bangar connection created, both at the end of Bound by Blood and with Ajax. Without the former, then we would have continued asking that question of where the Renegades were getting their funding,Why did ANYONE ever have a question about how the Renegades were getting funded? Who would have guessed that a large group of Charr could pull money together? Its like saying they needed Caudecus to explain how the Separatists got their funding.... no they didn't. It makes sense there are going to be people, on all levels, who oppose the treaty, and thus would be funding these groups. We don't need a litany of names to understand that. That's as much of common sense as people using the toilet.

If anything, the Bangar/Renegade connection just creates some pretty big plot holes. Now we are led to believe that literally no one, not even Creica or the Ash Legion, somehow found ANY evidence of Bangar supplying the Renegades for years, despite the fact that he was not only the one most opposed to the treaty, but ALSO the father of the guy leading the whole group. At least in the case of Caudecus he was constantly being busted for being involved, but managed to get out of it by being JUST slippery enough they couldn't pin anything on him directly. Now they have made Bangar into some giant Mary Sue, and everyone else into stumbling idiots. Its such a forced connection.

(side note: interesting that they confirm Separatists are still an issue in Bound by Blood, despite losing their funding from Caudecus and the White Mantle). But since ANet added in that simple handful of lines, we're not asking what the situation is anymore - we know the situation; the Renegades formed the original brunt of Bangar's army to take on Jormag. They are all but gone or part of the Dominion now.Why would anyone need to ask about the situation in the first place? We all know that cutting off the funding/killing leaders doesn't cause everyone who followed them to instantly drop dead, and that people will continue causes for years after. We don't need constant updates with people telling us not all the Risen, Mordrem, or Branded are dead post dragon defeat either.

In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.Except the most constantly complained about things, HoT, Joko, and Lazarus, were all complained about because of how short they were developed.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:However, there is no evidence to your assumption that dragon minions that only become aware when both their master and all champions of their master are fully asleep lack this forced loyalty. Every instance of a dragon minion that existed while the dragon was asleep - Drakkar, the Great Destroyer, minions created or converted by either - has been loyal to the dragon that created them. Except for Glint, who explicitly went through a ritual to grant her free will, and the Pale Tree, where the cause of her independence was left unspecified... until, apparently, recently.Beings like Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were already entities that existed before the dragons went to sleep, and were already corrupted before that time. And the destroyers themselves are just magical constructs, and not sentient entities corrupted by dragon influence. The seeds were neither corrupted one way or another, nor were they sentient entities to be corrupted. Its a different situation in its entirety.

And that's kinda the point. We have no evidence or precedence to your argument, since the Pale Tree is the only example we have of a dragon minion who became sentient at a time when neither the Elder Dragon nor a champion of the Elder Dragon was aware enough to take control.

However, if your only example is the very case that's under discussion, and there's an alternate explanation which does have a clear precedent (Glint)... yeah, there's nothing to support your claim. And now we have it being spelled out - the Pale Tree was purified at some point. There's the answer, in black and white. The Pale Tree was purified, and that's why she had the capacity to become benevolent. There's... not really much point in discussing it further. At this point, you're arguing against something we have now been explicitly told.

But if they'd done it ingame, we'd have had it years ago and in a more satisfying manner than a caption in an art book.

But here's the point that you seem to be missing: If ArenaNet had taken the opportunity to let us explore the cave sometime during, just before, or just after Heart of Thorns, they could have answered these questions with regards to the Pale Tree and her origins back then, and we wouldn't even be having this conversation.This is competently untrue and you know it. If anything, had they gone into it, we would have had another situation like Lazarus and Joko, entries that were taken care of within a reasonable manner in respect to their overall importance, that the "fandom" constantly complains about because it didn't meet their overblown and unrealistic expectation of how it should be. Any reveal about the Pale tree's "purification" would have been mundane, because that is what it should be.

First, there's a bit of circular reasoning in your argument there. We're saying that ArenaNet could spend a bit more time on fleshing stuff out, and you're saying that they won't because they haven't.

Second, it wouldn't need to be more than an event or two and some interactable items with some text. It's not like we're talking about an epic six-chapter arc here.

Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.The only thing I recall them ever saying this on was HoT. When it came to Joko, explicitly remember them saying they maybe could have extended his story into the first part of chapter 4, but that would have been about it.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:Third, ArenaNet themselves have acknowledged that they regret how much some of the stuff you mention was rushed, and that they'd like to do things better in the future.The only thing I recall them ever saying this on was HoT. When it came to Joko, explicitly remember them saying they maybe could have extended his story into the first part of chapter 4, but that would have been about it.

I distinctly remember them saying that they'd initially only planned out for three chapters, and it wasn't until they'd already committed that they realised they could have taken it much further. At that point, though, they were already, well, committed, so in practice they couldn't extend it much. That's probably where the bit you remember came from - as much as they might have wanted in hindsight to spend more time on him, the realities of their development cycle meant that it was impractical to attempt.

@Kossage.9072 said:I do hope we'll see more recurring norn characters besides Braham and Jhavi in the saga as the story progresses. While we've had some intriguing one-offs like Olar, Torrin and the Fraenir in the story (and Weibe in open world meta; I'd love to see the other havrouns as well as Bear's new havroun in the saga too), I'm missing the involvement of our norn friends from the three orders as well as the Whitebear family who now have an even bigger stake than before once/if they learn about the troubling revelations found in the journal of Knut's grandfather Asgeir.

Which is a very valid point. While Konig's right in that there are more important characters in Bjora than some people are claiming, it's nevertheless true that there's a good chance that Jhavi and Braham are the only ones that will be recurring characters.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:Which is a very valid point. While Konig's right in that there are more important characters in Bjora than some people are claiming, it's nevertheless true that there's a good chance that Jhavi and Braham are the only ones that will be recurring characters.Braham and Jhavi are the ones seen in the trailer with Rytlock about to face off with Jormag, so probably.

So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I actually agree here, rather, I'd expect the Sanguinary Blade to turn up - at least in mention - during a plot fighting against Primordus instead.I would be surprised if it was mentioned there either. Its such a non-starter of a solution due to its corruption of its wielder(which was the whole point of its narrative in the first place) that I would be amazed if anyone even considered using it.

The whole point of its narrative was the Sons of Svanir using it to lead an assault on Lion's Arch and spread Jormag's corruption. The corruption of its wielder when not protected was just a small filler for that small arc to give us a meaningless choice in the middle. Besides, there had to be a reason for the Sanguinary Blade to have been crafted by the dwarves in the first place, and it is well known the dwarves fought with destroyers often.

Why did ANYONE ever have a question about how the Renegades were getting funded? Who would have guessed that a large group of Charr could pull money together? Its like saying they needed Caudecus to explain how the Separatists got their funding.... no they didn't. It makes sense there are going to be people, on all levels, who oppose the treaty, and thus would be funding these groups. We don't need a litany of names to understand that. That's as much of common sense as people using the toilet.

If anything, the Bangar/Renegade connection just creates some pretty big plot holes. Now we are led to believe that literally no one, not even Creica or the Ash Legion, somehow found ANY evidence of Bangar supplying the Renegades for years, despite the fact that he was not only the one most opposed to the treaty, but ALSO the father of the guy leading the whole group. At least in the case of Caudecus he was constantly being busted for being involved, but managed to get out of it by being JUST slippery enough they couldn't pin anything on him directly. Now they have made Bangar into some giant Mary Sue, and everyone else into stumbling idiots. Its such a forced connection.Why did anyone have a question of who was funding the Renegades? Because you cannot wage wars without funds, that's kind of a known fact. And knowing a person in power with money is a rather important detail to any threat.

And I would greatly disagree with Bangar being "some giant Mary Sue" - he is very clearly displayed, well before that revelation, that he is a subtle and cunning manipulator that works through intermediaries. Plus the prologue does establish that Malice had implication of Bangar's involvement with Renegades, and it would make sense Crecia - who's faith in Bangar was so damn high - wouldn't bother to look into someone she didn't suspect of wrongdoing, or that Smodur, who doesn't care for subterfuge, wouldn't look into it either.

Why would anyone need to ask about the situation in the first place? We all know that cutting off the funding/killing leaders doesn't cause everyone who followed them to instantly drop dead, and that people will continue causes for years after. We don't need constant updates with people telling us not all the Risen, Mordrem, or Branded are dead post dragon defeat either.You misinterpreted the point of my comment. It isn't about "anyone needing to ask" or about "constant updates", but rather knowing what the aftermath is. When a short statement on the aftermath is established, it ties up a loose plot thread.

For example, without Siren's Landing, or similar commentary to the same effect, we would never know that the risen would have regained free will after Zhaitan's death. This changes a lot about what we knew of dragon minions - that the enslavement to a will ends with the death of the master, even though the minions remain. This result means that there could be more cases like Glint among the risen, if steps are taken properly.

Or how Bound by Blood establishes that Aurene has been hunting down the branded and killing them; this answers a question many people had for when she became an Elder Dragon: would she be able to simply control all branded now that she took her grandfather's power, or would she need to re-brand them, and could she? The answer is: she couldn't take control, and either didn't want to or cannot re-brand them without killing them.

Meanwhile, we have never gotten an answer for what happened to the Margonites of Nightfall, or the Forged of PoF. Does it matter? Ultimately, no. But not answering that with a simple statement leads to open doors and questions all the same.

I think you're so focused on the concept of "do we even need to know" that you're overlooking "what knowing would change".

In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim.Except the most constantly complained about things, HoT, Joko, and Lazarus, were all complained about because of how short they were developed.Cherrypicking your responses and ignoring other parts of the post, ironic coming from you. Let me quote the full statement for you, since that perfectly responds to your comment:

"I disagree about the comparison to Lazarus and Joko. In this case, we're getting some lore on the Pale Tree, who has had her fair share of screen time. There wouldn't be an issue about the depth of going into this topic, because the sheer revelation would be sufficient (as you suggest); the attention a specific piece of backstory gets is entirely different from the screentime a major lore figure gets."

"Take, for example, the Halloween collection on Joko's past. The only issue anyone has about it, is that it doesn't explain how Joko became a lich. There's nothing about lacking any expectation - because expectations are tied to what gets revealed and how much screentime characters get, and now how much screentime a revelation has."

"In fact, when revelations get drawn out for a lengthy period of time, fans tend to react negatively - the opposite of what you proclaim."

Comparing a revelation about a character with a lot of screen time is very different from the screentime or importance of a character. Since the former is merely a small piece of the latter. The two simply aren't directly comparable.

In fact, most revelations are short and to the point, very few being dragged out. The only revelations that were really dragged out was the revelation of Mordremoth/sylvari origins, and Glint's legacy.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

And, supposedly, krait. There is that one shipwreck scene were people insist they see krait among the debris. Though we are yet to see any show of shipwreck and water that the scene implies.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I would be rather surprised if the Sanguinary Blade comes up at all. Unlike the Dragonsblood spear, which was made specifically to kill Kralk because Kralk's weakness was his own power, Jormag has no stated weakness to himself(in fact, his stated weakness is Primordus's power),nor was the blade made for such a purpose in the first place.

I wouldn't necessarily write off a potential connection just yet. Looking back at how three Elder Dragons were defeated, we find something curious:

1) Zhaitan was defeated in part by using its own Death magic against it during the final battle (see e.g. the cannons and the MEGA-LIT that used Gorr's vacuumagic polarizer tech).

2) Mordremoth was defeated with a combination of Mind magic and Plant magic. The former via entering the Dream to battle Mordy's mind and turning the mind's evil manifestations of our friends into our allies to deprive the avatar of their protective power. The latter via plunging Caladbolg (a thorn of the Pale Tree who has deep ties to Mordy and thus access to some purified form of Plant magic as seen via the Artesian Waters in the Zhaitan campaign) into Mordy's last physical host to finish the last seed of the Jungle Dragon's mind off for good.

3) Kralkatorrik was defeated with Crystal magic due to the resonance of the Branded, Aurene, and the Dragonsblood Spears.

I could write off the deaths of two dragons via their greatest strength as a mere happy coincidence, but three deaths involving such seems to suggest a pattern. If we follow this line of reasoning, Jormag's great Ice magic could thus be potentially used against it as well.

Presently the story has revealed multiple weaknesses for dragons:

1) Turning the dragons' own magic spectrum aka their greatest strength against them (see the examples with the three dragons above).

2) Their opposite dragon's magic in the All (Primordus vs. Jormag confirmed, Zhaitan vs. Mordremoth heavily implied via the way we damaged the Unstable Abomination by exposing it to Death and Plant magic during S3Ep3, and thus Kralkatorrik/Aurene should theoretically be the direct opponent of the deep sea dragon if this pattern holds).

3) "Poisoning" magic and force-feeding a weakened dragon with it as seen with the battle against Zhaitan and how Gorr's experiments on Risen worked. Granted, this could simply be a part of example 1 given how we used Death magic there.

4) Divine magic (aka magic foreign to Tyria) as seen with the Divine Fire scaring off Mordrem and finishing off the Shadow of the Dragon in Season 2, or how djinn gained immunity to Branding via using Abaddon's remnant magic in the sands (until Kralk consumed Balthazar and managed to circumvent this protection) and how Kormir's fire protected Sun's Refuge from Branded until they figured out a loophole via Mist rifts.

5) Native Tyrian (spirit?) magic. See e.g. the three Lost Spirits using their power to help Braham defeat Drakkar for good, or how the kodan use the Spirit of Fire's remnant power in Koda's Flame to ward off Icebrood and protect themselves from the blizzard in Bitterfrost Frontier. This could potentially be classified under the "divine" magic listed in Example 4 (as devs have referred to the Spirits as norn "deities" in a very general sense a couple of times) except this magic is native to Tyria rather than originating from elsewhere in the Mists. It's unknown if the Blue and Golden Orbs (presently warding Fort Trinity and the Pyrite Peninsula, respectively) are related to this kind of magic or something else entirely, but they do oppose dragon corruption to some degree as well.

As such, I'd argue that the Rata Novans' research, while impressive, was left incomplete due to the sudden chak invasion, so they only figured out that each dragon had seemingly one distinctive weakness when we see from the above examples that several general weaknesses do in fact exist and are shared by at least some of the dragons in the All. While there's no definite proof that all dragons share all of the above weaknesses (even less so now that there's a chance that all the remaining dragons may have gained some of Balthazar's magic and can thus circumvent the protection of divine magic), it's certainly a possibility given the aforementioned evidence.

And thus the Sanguinary Blade could in fact tie into the story somehow if Jormag finds a way to destroy any weapon(s) enchanted by jotun scrolls and if it finds a way to counter Koda's Flame (should that S3 story ever be referenced in the saga) and we need to start figuring out alternative ways to face Jormag. Given how three dragons have already fallen to their greatest strength, perhaps Jormag will follow this pattern in some way too. I'd prefer the blade ending in the hands of one of Jormag's champions (perhaps the charr champion shown in the announcement trailer) for a symbolic clash between Flame (Sohothin, representing the divine fire of a god) and Frost (Sanguinary Blade, representing the icy power of an Elder Dragon) should Rytlock have to face this champion in battle.

However, given how Iron Tribune Fume Brighteye has yet to make an in-game appearance despite being set up as wanting to become Smodur's potential successor (while potentially being a Renegade sympathizer as she's opposed to the Ebonhawke Treaty) while the Dominion plot is now chugging on with many defections from the legions, the developers will have to pick and choose which of the seeded plot threads from vanilla game they want to expand on and address given the tight budget per episode.

It could very well be that we'll never see further development for the Sanguinary Blade or Mattul Krigheset's proposed idea of using the Fang of the Serpent as a ballista projectile against Jormag, but it would be cool if those ideas were explored more rather than being one-offs:

Mattul Krigheset: One night, I was lying on my furs, trying to sleep, and it struck me. How are we going to battle a creature as vast and powerful as Jormag? We haven't even broken his tooth yet!

Player: And?

Mattul Krigheset: And so, what if we made a weapon out of the tooth? A giant ballista with the tooth as it's projectile! What do you think?

Player: How?

Mattul Krigheset: By lashing it to a caber, like a giant dart. With the right amount of force, it would pierce the dragon's hide and bore straight into its black heart!

Player: Devious and inventive! Good luck with it.

If one of Jormag's weaknesses was in fact its own icy power as suggested above, then using the fang as such a weapon against the Ice Dragon would be a lovely, devious move: turning Jormag's token of manipulating Asgeir and the norn into an actual weapon against the dragon in an ironic twist that would fit the epic narratives in Norse sagas! :)

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:So far we have gotten the Charr, Norn, and Kodan stuff we saw in the trailer. That just leaves the centaur appearance, and then the final battle.

While I understand the trailer depicts general concepts, I would've loved to see an actual kodan burial at sea in some form unless the devs are saving that for later. It certainly made for a beautiful if somber visual in the trailer.

Interestingly the announcement trailer does also depict what seems to be an aftermath of a naval battle somewhere (maybe the so far unseen Sea of Desperation if that turns out to be the sea Jormag created that now connects to the shoreline of Woodland Cascades?). What's even more interesting is that at

we see what appears to be a krait (to the "southeast" of the foreground norn) sinking into the depths, so this may suggest some krait involvement in a future episode.

It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga. I'd love to see us meeting some friendly centaur rebels from the Centaur Alliance and help them dethrone the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has risen since Ulgoth's demise) so the Harathi and Tamini can no longer have to fear reprisals from the more dominating Modniir. Maybe we could even use good charr and sylvari as ambassadors to try to broker an armistice between humans and centaurs (as centaurs respect sylvari as nature spirits, and charr have experience detailing the benefits of a treaty with their former human enemies) while Jennah could provide evidence from Caudecus's seized letters in Season 3 to prove that Caudecus was the driving force behind the war on the humans' side while Jennah always preferred a more diplomatic solution to end hostilities without demeaning centaurs or taking over all their lands.

Meanwhile Jormag's whispers (which already seem to be influencing some people in Drizzlewood Coast based on ambient dialogue at e.g. Fort Defiance) could become appealing to the ousted warmongerers among centaurs who'd turn to Jormag in their desperation to retake what they lost just like some centaurs consumed Bloodstone dust as a last resort to take on Divinity's Reach with the White Mantle's help back in Season 3.

Fural Rageseeker: We sent out some agents to keep an eye on the centaurs to the west. There are reports that centaurs have been seen meeting with the Flame Legion. If that's true, it's quite concerning.

Interestingly there were also suggestions of a Centaur Alliance and Flame Legion collaboration back in vanilla game dialogue for Fural Rageseeker as seen above although so far nothing has (seemingly) come of it. I'd love to see the more evil Flame Legion splinter groups appear in the saga to oppose Efram's ambitions to become Flame Imperator, and how one of these splinter groups could be led by Crecia's high-ranking shaman sire to make the conflict even more personal for some of our heroes.

Just like I'd love to see some jotun and possibly grawl and quaggan involvement in the saga too so they can take their revenge on the Ice Dragon, given how much Bergris, Gara, Baroosh and Shashoo suffered due to Jormag's icebrood back in the personal story. We could even learn more about jotun discoveries and inventions from the previous dragonrise, perhaps figuring out more about their findings on the relationships between Elder Dragons and stars, or how they originally came up with the fire magic of the jotun scrolls that are so effective against Jormag and its minions. :)

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@"Kossage.9072" said:I wouldn't necessarily write off a potential connection just yet. Looking back at how three Elder Dragons were defeated, we find something curious:I honestly suspect that the power needed to defeat Jormag is going to come from the Spirits of the Wild, and the Jotun magic infused bow. So far, Anet has set Braham on the same path that Asgeir was set on, and both have already done several of the same things. Unlike Asgeir however, who had all of his companions die, which left him alone to be manipulated by Jormag, we and Braham obviously wont die(or at least stay dead), and thus, wont be manipulated to give up, showing that Asgier's wondering in his journal if he could have beaten Jormag, and the Dragon just tricked him, are right.

What's even more interesting is that at 1:06 in the trailer we see what appears to be a krait (to the "southeast" of the foreground norn) sinking into the depths, so this may suggest some krait involvement in a future episode.I can see why people think it looks like a Krait, but I'm not so sure.

It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga.So far, the Icebrood Saga has largely been the "Far North" expansion. Covering the Charr Homelands, Far Shiverpeaks, and, now, the Woodland Cascades. Given that I haven't seen Anet mention any sort of map expansion northward for IBS, that doesn't leave a lot of room for new areas.

  • Episode 4 will obviously be the northern half of Dirzzlewood, and us trying, and failing, to stop Bangar from waking Jormag, as well as the end of the Charr civil war as a large civil war. I doubt Bangar is going to get more defectors now that the secrets out that he turning everyone on his side into Icebrood.
  • Episodes 5 and 6 will likely be a split map situation with Bjora and Drizzlewood are. Most likely this map will be in the main part of the Woodland Cascades, the middle of Centaur lands. Narratively I would expect this to be the Tangled Depths/Thunderhead Peaks section of the story, where we find some sort of mcguffin needed to beat Jormag. Much like how Tangled Depths gave us Rata Novus during the Mordremoth plot, which alerted us to the fact the dragons have weaknesses, and how Thunderhead Peaks gave us the Dragonsblood weapon forge to mass produce said weapons against Kralk.What this Mcguffin is I am not 100% sure. Given the fact that the Spirits channeling their powers through Asgeir, and now Braham, is a plot point, maybe we need some Centaur mysticism to help us get that power, or more of it, or to help Braham do it better. Maybe something happens to the bow at the end of episode 4(which is when I suspect we will get it back) and we need the centaurs help to fix it along with the above. I suspect that at least some of the centaurs will have reconsidered the whole war with humanity thing, its been like 8 years since they lost.
  • Then we will have the big Jormag fight in episode 7. Probably in the giant ice lake in the middle of the Far Shiverpeaks that every map so far has been circling around.

Somewhere in all that we will have visits by Bear and Snow Leopard spirits where they will teach us some sort of lesson like Raven and Wolf did. Anet has also commented that, after episode 4, they plan to do something like the player engaging Season 1 content, except, this time it will stick around. Given the current plot, there may be some sort of Khan-Ur election thing held. And we are probably going to get another "Visions of the Past" update as well. their whole wording around the first one, and the subtitled nature of the first one, implies more.

So that I what I guess the Centaurs will do, nature magic stuff to help us fight Jormag/commune with the Spirits.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

Somewhere in all that we will have visits by Bear and Snow Leopard spirits where they will teach us some sort of lesson like Raven and Wolf did. Anet has also commented that, after episode 4, they plan to do something like the player engaging Season 1 content, except, this time it will stick around. Given the current plot, there may be some sort of Khan-Ur election thing held. And we are probably going to get another "Visions of the Past" update as well. their whole wording around the first one, and the subtitled nature of the first one, implies more.

If there is such a vote, I hope they don't link unrelated things together. The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out. By the end of Season 1, Gnashblade was practically a Captain himself as well, so the only thing that's really mattered is that ArenaNet has stuck their heels in about not doing the Abaddon fractal.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

I recall the opposite. It was rare for me to see someone who supported Thaumanova fractal over Abaddon's fall fractal, and those that did were almost always initially believing that "Abaddon's fall fractal" meant a revamp/port-to-GW2 of the final mission of Nightfall and wanted Thaumanova because they "didn't want repeating content of what's still there", and would change opinions when informed that it meant the war of the gods in 1 BE.

Granted at the time, the limitation of my interaction with the community out of game was to the official forums' general, living world, and lore sections.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:The general majority view at the time was that Kiel was the preferred candidate for the Council, but Abaddon was the preferred fractal, and the first consideration won out.I recall seeing numerous people pleading, BEGGING, for anything BUT more human god related stuff during the election. I remember seeing a lot more support for the reactor fractal then the Abbadon one.

There's a reason why I said 'majority view' and not 'consensus'. There were people on both sides, but the majority seemed to want the Abaddon fractal.

The point is, though, that in retrospect it feels like a bait-and-switch. At the time, it felt like the choice of Captain's Council seat would be the thing that would matter more. It turned out that that particular choice hasn't had much effect on the story at all (ArenaNet pretty much said that the main effect would have been that LA's defences would have been a bit better with Gnashblade due to him investing some of his personal wealth into them, but not enough to make a real difference), while it's the fractal choice that stuck with us.

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Forgive me if you can OP, but I read your post as though it were written in alternating upper and lower case letters. We are not even half way through this season and the Charr civil war is clearly wrapping up. You are making up the requirement that a story about two races must represent each equally at any given time.

I think Jormag will die but the way they die may surprise us. The way Elder dragons have been portrayed has changed significantly and Jormag's death could be an important pivot if we are transitioning into a more nuanced story where partnering with Elder dragons or forcing one to surrender is possible. I could see us convincing Jormag that, with their help, we could end the Elder dragon cycle. Bangar goes crazy at the thought of the Commander with two Elder dragons, feels betrayed by Jormag, and kills Jormag.

Braham's bow and other possibly potent anti-dragon weapons are a problem. After the Commander's experience with the Dragonsblood Spear, the bow and similar weapons would have been closely guarded. I am expecting the writers to continue the eroding of the importance of the bow that they started in the first Vision's of the Past. If they want to portray the Commander and their allies as rational, they must. If they want to portray themselves as doing more than recycling the same ideas, they must. However, I fear them going overboard. Perhaps the bow only works for Braham and they take his arm. That would be something that causes me to close this book with a fuck you to the author.

I think the player influenced content with be smaller than some people are expecting. It may include big decisions like next Khan-Ur, but will mostly be small decisions that could be applied to every zone.

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@draxynnic.3719 said:The point is, though, that in retrospect it feels like a bait-and-switch. At the time, it felt like the choice of Captain's Council seat would be the thing that would matter more. It turned out that that particular choice hasn't had much effect on the story at all (ArenaNet pretty much said that the main effect would have been that LA's defences would have been a bit better with Gnashblade due to him investing some of his personal wealth into them, but not enough to make a real difference), while it's the fractal choice that stuck with us.Its an MMO, no choice you make matters. Just like any choice on who becomes Khan-Ur will be 100% irrelevant to how the rest of the game turns out, and they will just make up a different excuse to why X Khan-Ur does the same thing had we chosen someone else to be Khan-Ur.

That being said, I never had a hat in the Captain's race. Not only did I hate everything about LWS1 that I had stopped playing before that point, but I don't play fractals, so it never mattered to me which one we got.

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@"blackheartgary.8605" said:and finally... The commander. In the recent Years, the Commander has seen things and has begun to slightly, increasingly, unravel. Cursing, shouting at Dragon's Watch members, and making decisions that have ultimately led to the death of several prominent members of Tyria. Let's Not forget this for a moment... and consider the fact that Palawa Joko's claims were entirely 100% true about the commander. Everyone shrugged this off EXCEPT the commander. "whispers in the dark" revealed that to us. The commander has faced obstacle after obstacle without break, without letup... and the time it has taken for them to absorb everything that has happened since zhaitan has has not completely sunk in. and that will happen soon.Hey, I know this is an older thread, but this made me chuckle a bit. You know that ironicaly both Joko and Jormag are master manipulators, and you would specifically take them for a word :) If you remember at Bjora, almost everyone wanted to "rest" at that point, so commander wasnt alone at that. Narrative seemed to indicate that Jormag later focused on the commander since he/she had seen a connection of the commander to Aurene.On the commanders "unraveling", I actually havent noticed anything specific in that regard. Quite interestingly, the commander seemed more cold and callous thorough the HoT storyline, how he/she talked to the soldiers or Caithe, since the whole situation was super grim. But soon enough commander managed to defeat Mordremoth in one part of overcoming the sad memories of his/her deceased master. Mordry would kill the commander if it wasnt the case, since it was a mind game. In the end you actually become a bit more relaxed when Aurene is around. So thats my take;) Either way you may have some different source or ideas outside the game :)

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@"Bealis.6023" said:

On the commanders "unraveling", I actually havent noticed anything specific in that regard. Quite interestingly, the commander seemed more cold and callous thorough the HoT storyline, how he/she talked to the soldiers or Caithe, since the whole situation was super grim. But soon enough commander managed to defeat Mordremoth in one part of overcoming the sad memories of his/her deceased master. Mordry would kill the commander if it wasnt the case, since it was a mind game. In the end you actually become a bit more relaxed when Aurene is around. So thats my take;) Either way you may have some different source or ideas outside the game :)

I'm with you on this one. I'm sure a lot of it is due to writing constraints, as this isn't a single-player rpg that can make more interesting player-character choices, but the Commander feels pretty undaunted to me. I think the low point was what happened with Aurene in Thunderhead Peaks, but aside from/after that it's been the same old dust-yourself-off, power-of-friendship type message. Another low-ish point was a refusal to resume a leadership role in the Pact, but that wasn't even really a low point. The Commander seemed sincere about continuing the fight outside the confines of the Pact, and has backed that up with many living seasonss (and an expansion's) worth of pretty confident activity. Not really feeling any sort of significant unraveling.

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@Kossage.9072 said:

It will be interesting to find out what roles centaurs and potentially krait play in the saga. I'd love to see us meeting some friendly centaur rebels from the Centaur Alliance and help them dethrone the Modniir High Command (or a new War King if such has risen since Ulgoth's demise) so the Harathi and Tamini can no longer have to fear reprisals from the more dominating Modniir. Maybe we could even use good charr and sylvari as ambassadors to try to broker an armistice between humans and centaurs (as centaurs respect sylvari as nature spirits, and charr have experience detailing the benefits of a treaty with their former human enemies) while Jennah could provide evidence from Caudecus's seized letters in Season 3 to prove that Caudecus was the driving force behind the war on the humans' side while Jennah always preferred a more diplomatic solution to end hostilities without demeaning centaurs or taking over all their lands.

Only a few centaurs revere the sylvari as nature spirits.

Noctis the Facemauler: Plant spirits! By the living soul of the earth, I did not think it to be true.Cai: Spirits of the land, that's us. We are angry at the humans of Ascalon Settlement. We've used our magic to chase the humans away.Cai: See for yourselves! The gates are open and the streets are empty. Go there, centaur, and claim your prize.Centaur: Noctis! The humans are fleeing into the hills. The spirit tells truth! The village is undefended!Noctis the Facemauler: Gallop to the human settlement immediately. Bless you, spirits! The Harathi will long remember your deeds!

It see It seems that only Noctis believes that they are plant spirits though he may have lost that idea afterwards.

Cai: Perfect. The centaur defense crumbles...just as the Seraph swoop back in to retake the town.Noctis the Facemauler: The Seraph are coming! Curse those trickster spirits! Retreat, and fight another day!

The centaurs have heard rumours of the emergence of the sylvari, but do not yet know what to make of them. Some, at least, believe the sylvari to be spirits of the land.

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