Are the Renegade summons terrible or am I missing something?

[aaron.7850]

I am talking about the three utility skills for Renegade, I can drop all three of them on top of a random non-veteran mob and it will remain alive with 80% health left... WTF?Where is the damage? The wiki says some of them do pulsing damage, but the damage is laughable.Are they bad or am I missing something here?

Coupled this with how bad the shortbow is for wvw and pvp and I am finding renegade the worst spec I have ever played yet. The only fun bit is the melee weapons and switching legends to proct the aoe condis.. but thats about it.

[Adenin.5973]

Only way I made renegade feel rewarding and fun to play was with using a lifesteal power build and tried to hit enemies with as many attacks as possible. You put down the elite one first, then the one that hits 20x and does vunerability, then mow the rest down with sword 4 + auto attack.Does quite decent damage and your health bar can barely be touched (unless your summons get knocked down). I paired it with Jalis, where you get the hammers that also heal you.

Nice AoE and you can essentially just have some passive on you or the enemy the entire time, that heal you like crazy. and do decent dmg

[ProtoGunner.4953]

The french Rönögaaade is a pretty comples subclass. I use it as either groups buffer (alacrigade) or condi dps. The rotation is very complex and you need appropriate gear. If you don't have this, go for something different. Check the guides on metabattle or snowcrows page.

[RabbitUp.8294]

@aaron.7850 said:I am talking about the three utility skills for Renegade, I can drop all three of them on top of a random non-veteran mob and it will remain alive with 80% health left... kitten?Where is the damage? The wiki says some of them do pulsing damage, but the damage is laughable.Are they bad or am I missing something here?

Coupled this with how bad the shortbow is for wvw and pvp and I am finding renegade the worst spec I have ever played yet. The only fun bit is the melee weapons and switching legends to proct the aoe condis.. but thats about it.

Are you power or condi?

If you are power, Icerazor's Ire does huge damage, and even more if you combine it with the Dance of Death trait. But keep in mind the damage is not AoE, it will hit 1 target per strike, so the damage is split among several targets when used against a group.For condi, none of them do damage on their own, but Razorclaw's Rage will make your other attacks do bleeding, so you have to combine it with other skills and spirits.

[Clownmug.8357]

@"aaron.7850" said:I am talking about the three utility skills for Renegade, I can drop all three of them on top of a random non-veteran mob and it will remain alive with 80% health left... kitten?Where is the damage? The wiki says some of them do pulsing damage, but the damage is laughable.Are they bad or am I missing something here?

Coupled this with how bad the shortbow is for wvw and pvp and I am finding renegade the worst spec I have ever played yet. The only fun bit is the melee weapons and switching legends to proct the aoe condis.. but thats about it.

For wvw I've found the best way for me to achieve decent damage and still have a flexible build is to go hybrid with lots of might generation and high crit chance. See the build below as an example. For most fights on that build I can easily maintain 15-20 might, as well as fury and high vigor uptime. With the fury and full endurance I get 100% crit chance, and as an extra bonus the vigor gives -15% incoming damage.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAUZlxQLMPaj1RaMOKjRSjMCygl2U/TD-zVRYVhnNqgTpNJQuKgeFBhLEU8BIU9wlcA-w

But even with all that the summons won't be entirely effective on their own. The best opportunity to deal real damage is comboing with Scorchrazor. Use that plus Icerazor and Spiritcrush to get lots of physical damage with decent burning, enabling the cast aoe on release option helps with stringing them all together consistently. A good opening combo could be something like Scorchrazer -> Icerazor -> Spiritcrush -> Bloodbane Path, then swap to Shiro and tick Impossible Odds, and/or start auto-attacking. I don't usually go for something that risky though, mostly just summon Icerazor and/or Darkrazor for zoning, then swap to Shiro and kite while auto-attacking. Scorchrazor combos are then used whenever an enemy leaves an opening.

@Adenin.5973 said:Only way I made renegade feel rewarding and fun to play was with using a lifesteal power build and tried to hit enemies with as many attacks as possible. You put down the elite one first, then the one that hits 20x and does vunerability, then mow the rest down with sword 4 + auto attack.Does quite decent damage and your health bar can barely be touched (unless your summons get knocked down). I paired it with Jalis, where you get the hammers that also heal you.

Nice AoE and you can essentially just have some passive on you or the enemy the entire time, that heal you like crazy. and do decent dmg

Yeah, Soulcleave's Summit is probably one of the best aspects of Renegade. I'd say it's better to summon Icerazor first though. You can get it out quicker and it'll already be attacking when the lifesteal becomes active, plus you'll usually have 5-10 more energy than the other way around. Also with shortbow you can get double lifesteal procs from the auto-attack so using it with Icerazor placed between you and enemies can be pretty effective in damage and sustain. This strategy works best against mesmers that camp behind staff clones and minion master necros since they provide tons of mindless ai to run into Icerazor. There's also the rare occassion where you can los a ranger and have their pet follow you behind cover, then just use Soulcleave by itself while auto-attacking for free healing.

With all that said, don't even bother with using Razorclaw's Rage. Biggest waste of energy in the game. Can't think of any situation I'd use it that wouldn't be better off with Soulcleave.

[Blackarps.1974]

I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Blackarps.1974 said:I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

They’re quite strong in PvE and arguably too strong in pvp, though. Not everything needs to be good in all 3 game modes (and quite frankly can’t really be from a design standpoint since each game mode requires really specific things in order for a skill to be “good” for that mode).

[Blackarps.1974]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

They’re quite strong in PvE and arguably too strong in pvp, though. Not everything needs to be good in all 3 game modes (and quite frankly can’t really be from a design standpoint since each game mode requires really specific things in order for a skill to be “good” for that mode).

I agree that everything doesn't need to be good for every game mode but that doesn't mean it should be completely useless either, that's just how balance works. The more options we have, the healthier the balance. I'm also suggesting they be improved for WvW specifically. They are good elsewhere but need adjustment when it comes to player caps which is affected most in WvW.

[Mike.7983]

Power Renegade is a beast in open world pve, like was mentioned above abuse the vuln/scar stacks and just nuke anything with multi hit moves while healing insane amounts, by far my easiest champ killer, power minion reaper comes close but slow in comparison. Stat wise you can run full marauders and hit about 20,000hp, 87% base crit with the 33% trait, fury caps you easily while hitting over 4200 self sustained power with perma 25 might stacks. Very very easy to spam sword skills for 30k a piece which is crazy considering they hit fast and hard. Sword offhand skill 4 is a personal fav for burning off 20+ battle scars and dealing crazy burst cone.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Blackarps.1974 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

They’re quite strong in PvE and arguably too strong in pvp, though. Not everything needs to be good in all 3 game modes (and quite frankly can’t really be from a design standpoint since each game mode requires really specific things in order for a skill to be “good” for that mode).

I agree that everything doesn't need to be good for every game mode but that doesn't mean it should be completely useless either, that's just how balance works. The more options we have, the healthier the balance. I'm also suggesting they be improved for WvW specifically. They are good elsewhere but need adjustment when it comes to player caps which is affected most in WvW.

The problem is that increasing the cap to 10 is a functionality change and therefore will affect PvE as well. They can’t (or at least haven’t for anything else so I will assume can’t/refuse to) change the target cap unless it affects all modes. They’ve said previously that they can split skills (numbers, etc) but can’t/won’t split functionality (target cap, what a skill does, etc.)

Your other suggestion is to make the spirits invuln/immune to CC so they can be useful against zergs, but that also has the same issue as the above; it’s a functionality change and therefore would need to happen for all modes.

Lastly, let’s look at how good the skills are for WvW zergs in general (even assuming 10man + invulnerable spirits and assuming the current push meta)

1) Breakrazor: is okay, while providing 50% condi reduction is nice and passive healing for 10s, with how mobile WvW is it easily gets eclipsed by any sort of mobile support (I.e scrapper, FB). Also with how many fast cleanses exist in an organized Zerg the 50% damage reduction from condis really doesn’t do anything.

2) Razorclaw: extra bleeding stacks. Not useful at all against any sort of organized group, the extra damage is minuscule and will get immediately cleansed anyway. And again the radius, even though a huge 360, is still too small to really benefit allies in mobile WvW.

3) Darkrazor: easily the best spirit for WvW assuming it had invulnerability (and even better if 10 man), but still outclassed by things like Scourge Shades. Definitely useful against enemies without stab, but as long as they have Stab it’s just a 6 pulse stab stripper (still good). Would be most useful with coordinated corrupts/boon strips. Darkrazor being good doesn’t make up for the rest of the kit being bad for WvW though.

4) Icerazor: shit tier damage spirit for WvW Zerg play, even with the above buffs. Single target random focus means it has no real pressure against big groups. It has projectiles which get destroyed by any semi-organized group so it can’t even do its damage. The condis aren’t even that useful since, again, single target and mass cleanses exist in zergs. As bad as Razorclaw for Zerg play imo. Would need a complete rework to be useful or have some sort of unblockable ricochet or splinter mechanic.

5) Soulcleave: theoretically could be pretty useful if you can place it right and with the right timing for coordinated attacks. However, feels like it might be a “win more” button to me than actually useful and still has the same issues that all the other support spirits do; WvW is mobile and people need to stand in them. Its cast time exacerbates this issue even further since by the time it finally activates the Zerg is already passing through it.

While I understand and appreciate that you want them to be better for WvW, it’s just important to remember that 1) functionality changes have to affect all modes so things like increasing target caps can’t be done without careful considerations and perhaps even more importantly 2) most of the skills themselves, even if super buffed, don’t really lend themselves towards being useful in a highly mobile, WvW Zerg environment.

[draxynnic.3719]

Regardless of what you might think from shortbow, Kalla is a power or support legend more than condi. Razorclaw's just isn't worth taking - the way it's balanced seems like ArenaNet were afraid of what it might be able to do in an optimal situation (dropped on top of a group by a renegede with full Viper's against a stationary target) and made something that was questionable even in the ideal scenario and pretty much not worth using anywhere else. Everything else is either power or heals.

Shortbow also actually tends to work better with power - the power coefficients on the skills that you actually have a decent chance of landing on a moving target are fairly good.

In power builds (especially power builds that make use of Devastation lifestealing) and support builds, the summons do fairly well. Just pretend Razorclaw isn't on the bar.

[Blackarps.1974]

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

They’re quite strong in PvE and arguably too strong in pvp, though. Not everything needs to be good in all 3 game modes (and quite frankly can’t really be from a design standpoint since each game mode requires really specific things in order for a skill to be “good” for that mode).

I agree that everything doesn't need to be good for every game mode but that doesn't mean it should be completely useless either, that's just how balance works. The more options we have, the healthier the balance. I'm also suggesting they be improved for WvW specifically. They are good elsewhere but need adjustment when it comes to player caps which is affected most in WvW.

The problem is that increasing the cap to 10 is a functionality change and therefore will affect PvE as well. They can’t (or at least haven’t for anything else so I will assume can’t/refuse to) change the target cap unless it affects all modes. They’ve said previously that they can split skills (numbers, etc) but can’t/won’t split functionality (target cap, what a skill does, etc.)

Your other suggestion is to make the spirits invuln/immune to CC so they can be useful against zergs, but that also has the same issue as the above; it’s a functionality change and therefore would need to happen for all modes.

Lastly, let’s look at how good the skills are for WvW zergs in general (even assuming 10man + invulnerable spirits and assuming the current push meta)

1) Breakrazor: is okay, while providing 50% condi reduction is nice and passive healing for 10s, with how mobile WvW is it easily gets eclipsed by any sort of mobile support (I.e scrapper, FB). Also with how many fast cleanses exist in an organized Zerg the 50% damage reduction from condis really doesn’t do anything.

2) Razorclaw: extra bleeding stacks. Not useful at all against any sort of organized group, the extra damage is minuscule and will get immediately cleansed anyway. And again the radius, even though a huge 360, is still too small to really benefit allies in mobile WvW.

3) Darkrazor: easily the best spirit for WvW assuming it had invulnerability (and even better if 10 man), but still outclassed by things like Scourge Shades. Definitely useful against enemies without stab, but as long as they have Stab it’s just a 6 pulse stab stripper (still good). Would be most useful with coordinated corrupts/boon strips. Darkrazor being good doesn’t make up for the rest of the kit being bad for WvW though.

4) Icerazor: kitten tier damage spirit for WvW Zerg play, even with the above buffs. Single target random focus means it has no real pressure against big groups. It has projectiles which get destroyed by any semi-organized group so it can’t even do its damage. The condis aren’t even that useful since, again, single target and mass cleanses exist in zergs. As bad as Razorclaw for Zerg play imo. Would need a complete rework to be useful or have some sort of unblockable ricochet or splinter mechanic.

5) Soulcleave: theoretically could be pretty useful if you can place it right and with the right timing for coordinated attacks. However, feels like it might be a “win more” button to me than actually useful and still has the same issues that all the other support spirits do; WvW is mobile and people need to stand in them. Its cast time exacerbates this issue even further since by the time it finally activates the Zerg is already passing through it.

While I understand and appreciate that you want them to be better for WvW, it’s just important to remember that 1) functionality changes have to affect all modes so things like increasing target caps can’t be done without careful considerations and perhaps even more importantly 2) most of the skills themselves, even if super buffed, don’t really lend themselves towards being useful in a highly mobile, WvW Zerg environment.

I'm aware of functionality changes but when it comes to PvP, it wouldn't mean much as you don't have more than 5 people to begin with. As far as PvE, affecting 10 but lowering the buff would be a necessary change needed as well. One of the biggest problem with splitting skills between modes is that it becomes less user friendly when you swap between them and expect same functionality. This is why I think just changing their overall function as how gyros got tweaked is a potential way to go. I'm not saying that specifically but we can't ignore the fact that something should be done with them. There are too many useless specs because Anet's way of balancing is to just nerf what's too strong instead of look at the core functionality of each skill, trait, and utility as they affect the entire game.

The problem with every one of your points though is that they die instantly. Yeah, it sounds good on paper but in actual situations, they don't work. You don't get any buffs from them in WvW. I've been trying to use them for weeks now and there are only two times they don't die instantly. One is when you are just zerging down a lord and the other is small group fights. As for the latter, they are still exceptionally weak as its very easy to kill or avoid.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@Blackarps.1974 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Blackarps.1974 said:I wanted to test a condi build last week and yeah, they are pretty terrible. Traits and shortbow are just okay with nothing too special about them. Citadel Bombardment feel weak against anyone on the move/not downed. Orders from Above and Heroic Command are fantastic. A lot of might and alacrity from them which kind of make Kalla/Renegade worth using alone. Then you get to the utilities. Just terrible in nearly every instance for WvW.

I'm not even sure what to propose to make them viable. Make them all 10 targets, have them function as wells, or add some kind of extra condis/damage to each that aren't overused for other classes. Maybe have Darkrazor's Daring give alacrity, Icerazor to chill instead of cripple, and give Razorclaw, taunt. All this while lowering the torment application for condi rev via mace/axe would be decent in theory.

Either way, they need to be buffed to at least be usable in WvW. Immune to damage and stuns would be a good start.

They’re quite strong in PvE and arguably too strong in pvp, though. Not everything needs to be good in all 3 game modes (and quite frankly can’t really be from a design standpoint since each game mode requires really specific things in order for a skill to be “good” for that mode).

I agree that everything doesn't need to be good for every game mode but that doesn't mean it should be completely useless either, that's just how balance works. The more options we have, the healthier the balance. I'm also suggesting they be improved for WvW specifically. They are good elsewhere but need adjustment when it comes to player caps which is affected most in WvW.

The problem is that increasing the cap to 10 is a functionality change and therefore will affect PvE as well. They can’t (or at least haven’t for anything else so I will assume can’t/refuse to) change the target cap unless it affects all modes. They’ve said previously that they can split skills (numbers, etc) but can’t/won’t split functionality (target cap, what a skill does, etc.)

Your other suggestion is to make the spirits invuln/immune to CC so they can be useful against zergs, but that also has the same issue as the above; it’s a functionality change and therefore would need to happen for all modes.

Lastly, let’s look at how good the skills are for WvW zergs in general (even assuming 10man + invulnerable spirits and assuming the current push meta)

1) Breakrazor: is okay, while providing 50% condi reduction is nice and passive healing for 10s, with how mobile WvW is it easily gets eclipsed by any sort of mobile support (I.e scrapper, FB). Also with how many fast cleanses exist in an organized Zerg the 50% damage reduction from condis really doesn’t do anything.

2) Razorclaw: extra bleeding stacks. Not useful at all against any sort of organized group, the extra damage is minuscule and will get immediately cleansed anyway. And again the radius, even though a huge 360, is still too small to really benefit allies in mobile WvW.

3) Darkrazor: easily the best spirit for WvW assuming it had invulnerability (and even better if 10 man), but still outclassed by things like Scourge Shades. Definitely useful against enemies without stab, but as long as they have Stab it’s just a 6 pulse stab stripper (still good). Would be most useful with coordinated corrupts/boon strips. Darkrazor being good doesn’t make up for the rest of the kit being bad for WvW though.

4) Icerazor: kitten tier damage spirit for WvW Zerg play, even with the above buffs. Single target random focus means it has no real pressure against big groups. It has projectiles which get destroyed by any semi-organized group so it can’t even do its damage. The condis aren’t even that useful since, again, single target and mass cleanses exist in zergs. As bad as Razorclaw for Zerg play imo. Would need a complete rework to be useful or have some sort of unblockable ricochet or splinter mechanic.

5) Soulcleave: theoretically could be pretty useful if you can place it right and with the right timing for coordinated attacks. However, feels like it might be a “win more” button to me than actually useful and still has the same issues that all the other support spirits do; WvW is mobile and people need to stand in them. Its cast time exacerbates this issue even further since by the time it finally activates the Zerg is already passing through it.

While I understand and appreciate that you want them to be better for WvW, it’s just important to remember that 1) functionality changes have to affect all modes so things like increasing target caps can’t be done without careful considerations and perhaps even more importantly 2) most of the skills themselves, even if super buffed, don’t really lend themselves towards being useful in a highly mobile, WvW Zerg environment.

The problem with every one of your points though is that they die instantly. Yeah, it sounds good on paper but in actual situations, they don't work. You don't get any buffs from them in WvW. I've been trying to use them for weeks now and there are only two times they don't die instantly. One is when you are just zerging down a lord and the other is small group fights. As for the latter, they are still exceptionally weak as its very easy to kill or avoid.

I think you misread my individual points about each skill. If you read closely I was giving analysis based on the idea that each spirit was both 10 man and Invulnerable. And I was definitely not saying that any of them sounded good on paper (except maybe Darkrazor, but only assuming invulnerability). The problem with the spirits isn’t even that they die or get CC’d it’s also that they are terrible for mobile Zerg fights in general due to needing to stand in them to get benefits. Or in icerazor’s case being single target and projectile based.

[Aeolus.3615]

Its a awfull class designeg only for pve :) only good thing is the perma alacrity wich should be removed to chrono only.

Renegade utilities should work like Gw1 wards.....https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ward_spell