Installed ArcDPS for the first time. It opened my eyes to how bad wvw balance is.

[PPT.3086]

iNstAllEd aRc dPs gAme bAlEnse oMeGaLUl tOp dMg eZ bUrN lEl aNet

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

[Svarty.8019]

@"aaron.7850" said:Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi [..]?Ganking. Ganking is the answer to your question.

It's a valid role, but people who do it are low. We all know this, yet some try to dress it up with fancy rhetoric i.e. "Roaming".

[lare.5129]

@aaron.7850 said:80% of damage dealt was done by Necromancers closely followed by Burn Guardians.this is OK.

15% by elementalists. and the other 5% split amongst all the other professions.this is also ok. No one distrub them play any class and any biuld that thay want.

I decided to try Burn Guardian (I dont have a necro) to test the results for myself.. and there I was, topping the damage meters just by using one skill (SoJ).nice

Now I hate damage meters and all they represent, but I just cant ignore the truth now that I have come face to face with it.The truth is - you can choose any class and any biuld.

Why would I ever play my dps mesmer or dps ranger or dps thief or dps engi knowing that despite my best efforts, my damage only accounts to a minuscule fraction of the squad's dps?if you want- you can

If I were a commander, I would only allow necros and guardians to do the dps while the others provide support if they dont have those classes.no one can't distrub take only necro and guard. Welcome! come, take, and play.

Unless this is what actually happens and everyone else is aware of this, then forgive my ignorance.no problem! This is main target of wvw - take what you want and do action.

[shiri.4257]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@shiri.4257 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

No, because they don't have any good options.

[scerevisiae.1972]

ele > scrapper > thief > reaper > rev > then maybe necro

IMHO this is somewhere between "wrong" and "overly simplistic".

for a mainly ranged / pirate ship situation, it would be:glass weaver > rev/ranger >> scourge/reaper >>> scrapper >>> warrior

for a push comp that only pushes when shades/wells are up:glass weaver > reaper/scrapper > scourge, rev, warrior

for a push comp that prefers to brawl:reaper, warrior > scrapper > weaver > scourge, rev

something like that. thief and weaver are heavily dependent on player skill and situation, too much to generalise.

scourge and scrapper are the lowest skill DPS tha get the job done which is why most groups use them, but they're definitely not highest DPS unless you only look at fights that are orchestrated around shade/well CDs. good commanders will recognise this kind of group and avoid bombs and run over scourge/scrapper groups when they're CDs are down and their DPS sucks.

groups that run only scourges/scrappers often get lolpwned by pug rangers and any kind of ranged/clouding/pirate ship situation.

the key to success in WVW is diversity and playing to your comps strengths/weaknesses, but nearly any comp can work.

[reddie.5861]

i dunno when i run thief in guild i can easily keep up with the 1111 scrapper if not out dps them.im idd not fan of range stuff i always go balls deep.

but ye all in all every1 has a spot that it shines at scourge > reaper when u go for ranged but in melee the reaper outshine scourge again.and so on.

the dps meter just irritates me for a while already, u cant base full raid on dmg only.no dmg can be done when u have bad support and no dmg can be done when u have commander that favors ranged fights over melee then every1 will say melee is shit while if u put a weaver in a melee situation for example (wont happen but w/e) then every1 will say weaver sucks.

so ye at the end it comes down to the way the commander plays in my opinion.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

Honestly this is just tiring, as you don't even know what your argument is anymore.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said: Every profession can solo roam/small scale.

I agree. Just as every profession can play in a Zerg.

Let's look at what sees usage in a zerg now, shall we:Ranger = Vines DruidMesmer = ChronoThief = Staff DaredevilEngineer = Medi Scrapper + Bomb Kit Scrapper

Confused? I have no doubt. Because your original argument was that not every build for every profession was useful in a zerg, to which I pointed out, the same rules apply to small group / solo roaming.

Hammer RevShout Cleanse WarriorMedi-Kit Scrapper

These good for solo roaming? Of course not. Can you use them to solo roam? Sure, but you're going to have a tough time, be rather ineffective, and it would be better if you just played a different build for that role....exactly the same situation as if a Longbow SB, S/P Thief, Holosmith or Condi Mirage wanted to jump into a zerg. Those builds are for solo roaming and small groups, and for a zerg they would be inefficient. You're upset that a Holosmith or a LB Soulbeast isn't effective in a zerg, while completely ignoring the reality that both of those are top tier roaming builds, meanwhile those professions still have effective roles to play in a zerg running a different build.

You can't play in a zerg with the build you want? Too bad, but that's no different than PvP or PvE, where at the top end, people expect players to be using the optimum builds, and not whatever they think is fun.

The issue at hand is your just don't understand what you're talking about, and you're evidently not open to rethinking your position. That's fine - you're in great company here. Purely a L2Build issue

[shiri.4257]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@shiri.4257 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:All of the spirited debate about the minutia aside, the fact remains that the ability for professions to do AoE damage at a far distance is not balanced between professions. I don't mean 'poorly balanced,' I mean there's no balance at all. Not even an attempt.

I don't see why that is a problem. What fun would it be if every build had equal strengths? Scourge is king of AoE corrupts, and arguably damage , but what about damage vs. single target, like in a 1v1 situation? Would a Scourge out damage a Holo? I highly doubt it. You may feel that a Holosmith has no place in a zerg, but they are still top tier when it comes to roaming, 1v1 and small engagements. Same holds true for Thief, Ranger, etc.

Nearly every build I can think of has a place in WvW either in a large squad/zerg composition, or in a small group / playing solo. Different builds for different roles, which is no different than how sPvP or PvE works. You take a team fighter build to solo far, don't be upset at getting easily pushed off by a side noder. Use the right tool for the job. You may want to bring your Greatsword Spellbreaker into T4 fractals, but if you're the only warrior in the group, they would all be better off if you ran Berserker Axe/Axe + Mace/Mace banner slave.

As one poster in the PVP section put it, in a competitive game mode, it isn't about what you think is fun to play, but about what works. I'd argue the same holds true for endgame PvE content. The builds people take into raids and T4 fractals aren't what 'is fun', but 'what works'.

...Did you even read my post? You just admitted that my assessment on engineer is accurate. You aren't addressing the problem I raised. You're just dancing around it.

Yes I did, I wasn't disagreeing with your assessment on engineer, I was disagreeing with the notion that it was a problem.

Not every build of every profession is equally effective in every role in every game mode in every MMO. In GW2 we see this with all roles in WvW, sPvP and PvE respectively. You just need to make peace with it.

There is a difference between being unequally effective, and having no effect at all. Every profession can solo roam/small scale. They're designed to be able to do this for sPvP's sake. But not every profession can large scale, which is what naturally happens in WvW. If half of the professions are effectively dead weight to a commander, then that presents a pretty big problem. Imagine if a new mesmer main shows up to WvW, only to find that he is completely ineffective and commanders don't want him for this ineffectiveness.

imagine, if over half of the professions were usable in wvw. imagine if the player figures out how to optimize his mesmer for wvw roles. imagine that perhaps anet isn't the problem, but perhaps the player?

No, because they don't have any good options.

They do, your theory crafting is just bad or you fail to execute what's necessary for the squad. There are 8 classes below and they function in a zerg from one capacity to another. The issue isn't the classes aren't viable to a zerg. The issue are the players believe the zerg revolves around them.

Mesmer- commander class, some of the best commanders in the game use the chrono/mesmer of some sort. Also use them in squads for veils, portals, and primarily focus pulls to setup engages.

Guardian- FB/DH/burn guards

Necro- Scourges- dont even need to explain that

Warriors - Spellbreakers can run as dps or support. Then there's the jihad warrior or burstzerker as others call it.

Elementalist- function as auramancers, immob eles, or weavers

Engineers - bruiser or medic scrappers

revenants - still there and provide a good combo for a range dps synergizing with the mesmer focus pulls.

Soulbeast - there are squads using them for immobs, clearing siege, and driver sniping. The issue is most soulbeasts don't know how to do eitiher of those 3 to any effectiveness. They are either sniping some random bronze invader, lolligagging at the gates/walls or immobing the ambient that's attacking their pet.

Thiefs- might be the least useful in a zerg fight. but if there are thieves that help the squad in the bigger scheme of things such as flipping supply lines and camps, tapping keeps, or cutting off reinforcements, that works too. again the issue with this class in the zerg is 9/10 thieves join squad and lolligag around the map or more likely not even on the right map. they come into a squad and expect to have party priority trying to face tank a blob with their pogo stick.

So at worst-case scenario, if you exclude soulbeast and thieves from wvw viability. you have 6/8 classes that are playable in a squad. with the 4th/5th party slot competing for a slot. Which is alot more than in vanilla gw2. The primary issue is l2p or l2build. it's like the PHD basket weaver coming into silicon valley and trying to tell them how to make computers.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@"shiri.4257" said:Stuff

Because you've dropped my whole original point, let me restate it: They don't have any good long-range offensive options. If you run one in a zerg, your job is to run around doing very little until whatever niche support that the good professions don't have is required. This is an issue, because the other professions can mount a long range assault while also supporting a zerg. All of your examples on how to l2p are really "learn to do something else,' which is just an affirmation of what I said in the first place.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

Honestly this is just tiring, as you don't even know what your argument is anymore.

My argument has been consistent. You're the one who forgets what I said over my brevity.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

I agree. Just as every profession can play in a Zerg.

And then you proceed to ignore everything I said, because you'd rather scream that I don't know what I'm talking about then actually pay attention to what I'm talking about. Prime example of this, you say:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Engineer = Medi Scrapper + Bomb Kit Scrapper

When I said earlier:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam.

Bolded for emphasis. Confused? That I already mentioned the things that you claim that I don't know? That is on you:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Confused? I have no doubt. Because your original argument was that not every build for every profession was useful in a zerg, to which I pointed out, the same rules apply to small group / solo roaming.

That's not what I said. It's not every build for every profession. It's every profession. You give the example of spamming heals, which nearly every profession can do. The large scale classes are Guardian, Elementalist, Necromancer, Revenant, and Ranger. Every one of them has a support, and every one of them can do good damage at a long range. This gives them the ability to sustain at least some offense while supporting, while also giving them the flexibility to switch between roles in the zerg simply by switching templates. The other professions don't have this, and any perceived ability to solo roam on those professions doesn't compensate for this. For a veteran with multiple professions and multiple builds on them, this isn't as much of an issue. But not every player has this.

The reason why none of this makes sense to you is because you presumed what my argument was, and have refused to budge from that position.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"shiri.4257" said:Stuff

Because you've dropped my whole original point, let me restate it: They don't have any good long-range offensive options. If you run one in a zerg, your job is to run around doing very little until whatever niche support that the good professions don't have is required. This is an issue, because the other professions can mount a long range assault while also supporting a zerg. All of your examples on how to l2p are really "learn to do something else,' which is just an affirmation of what I said in the first place.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

Honestly this is just tiring, as you don't even know what your argument is anymore.

My argument has been consistent. You're the one who forgets what I said over my brevity.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

I agree. Just as every profession can play in a Zerg.

And then you proceed to ignore everything I said, because you'd rather scream that I don't know what I'm talking about then actually pay attention to what I'm talking about. Prime example of this, you say:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Engineer = Medi Scrapper + Bomb Kit Scrapper

When I said earlier:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:Personally, one of the professions I always wanted to bring into WvW but don't is the engineer, largely because they have no offensive presence in a zerg. My options are

to spam heals and hope everyone else is competent, or to small scale roam.

Bolded for emphasis. Confused? That I already mentioned the things that you claim that I don't know? That is on you:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:Confused? I have no doubt. Because your original argument was that not every build for every profession was useful in a zerg, to which I pointed out, the same rules apply to small group / solo roaming.

That's not what I said. It's not every build for every profession. It's every profession. You give the example of spamming heals, which nearly every profession can do. The large scale classes are Guardian, Elementalist, Necromancer, Revenant, and Ranger. Every one of them has a support, and every one of them can do good damage at a long range. This gives them the ability to sustain at least some offense while supporting, while also giving them the flexibility to switch between roles in the zerg simply by switching templates. The other professions don't have this, and any perceived ability to solo roam on those professions doesn't compensate for this. For a veteran with multiple professions and multiple builds on them, this isn't as much of an issue. But not every player has this.

The reason why none of this makes sense to you is because you presumed what my argument was, and have refused to budge from that position.

dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

[Dawdler.8521]

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:dude, do you wvw at all?Obviously he does. Well, in an alternate dimension where the ranger is one of the "large scale" meta zerg classes at least.

[ArchonWing.9480]

What are you talking about; you get awesome dps on your own team when you reflect it back to them!

Anyhow, check out bomb kit scrapper.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

dude, do you wvw at all? dps scrapper can top the charts no problem lmao

every class has at least one viable zerg build. The only class that's particularly difficult to play well in a zerg is thief, but good ones can pump out some great damage with staff daredevil

Considering the subject of this thread is that guardians, necromancers, and elementalists dwarf everyone in sustained zerg DPS, this is what I am going off of. There's already spirited debate on the minutia of how useful that DPS is, but the limited application of melee weapons in zerg combat makes me skeptical that scrapper tops the charts.

Personally, I play ele. The reason is simple: it can do everything. I've melted entire groups with a single meteor storm, swapped to sword to small scale/roam, and I've even had some experience healing and commanding at the same time. The zerg play is fairly feast or famine, but once that storm hits I can turn the tide of the battle. Before PoF I played rev. Back then, it could do everything on a single build. I didn't heal much with it, but I did drop the tablet on siege every once in awhile.

Have you ever visited youtube.com? It's a neat new site with endless videos of zerg fights, set the filter to show the most recent ones. Look for some with arcdps up, scrappers can pump out 30k aoes with their AA

I think some of the videos you find will be enlightening now that you can also see your damage with arcdps

[Sandzibar.5134]

Once upon a time in game design Ranged AOE was weakest, with single target Melee being the strongest in terms of dmg output.

So brave of the Anet balance professionals to subvert expectations.

[Vornollo.5182]

Balance isn't good, but it's better then how it was prior to the March patch.Conditions should be reduced to be more on-par with power (as you can currently spike with "DoTs" just as hard as Power).

But don't forget that you cannot judge WvW zerg efficiency just on DPS.Try doing that DPS without a Firebrand and/or Scrapper carrying you from point A to point B with their support.Try to get those numbers without Spellbreakers popping their ridiculously OP Winds of Disenchantment (e.g. completely disabling the enemy FB's/Scrappers who are carrying their DPS's).In a good zerg/group, everyone has their own little role to perform. Individually those builds will be dreadful, but in a group they'll be nearly unstoppable.So sure, you can use DPS-meters for some idea of what's happening (and establishing that balance is still not quite there yet and hasn't been since HoT's powercreep), you can also use it to establish that the enemy is doing bad on condi-cleansing/maintaining resistance, or that your spellbreakers are doing a good job at controlling the enemy's resistance and such.Heck, there's fights where you got some annoying mesmer on the side who decides to Moa the commander, completely swinging the engage in their sides' favor, but you won't see that on your DPS meter.

So yeah, agreed that balance isn't good yet (mainly condi and Winds of Disenchantment need looking at), but you cannot just judge all of it on a DPS meter.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

[shiri.4257]

my man in here. i just contacted arcdps tech support. he's advised me on the trick to topping the dps charts, it works with any build and any class you want too!

1) Step 1- buy commander tag for 300g2) Step 2 - create squad3) Step 3 - close squad before people can join.4) Step 4 - Rejoice in your top dps!

[Winter.5071]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're shit at the game.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@V Winter.5371 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

yeah its so hard

[SWI.4127]

Burn guard is tough to balance because it is very much a test of how competent a zerg is. If they have proper comp and know when to use their skills, it will do close to nothing. If they don't even have supports or proper parties set up, it will melt people.

[Winter.5071]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@V Winter.5371 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

yeah its so hard

A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're shit at the game.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@V Winter.5371 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@V Winter.5371 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:what the hell lol. its pretty obvious you are contributing to downs as a burn guard if you see consecutive 5k+ burn tics. ugh zero logic brains going at it makes me tired. on one hand i've always liked playing burn guard but on the other i know its borken asf and needs to be nerfed properly. is whatever.

Who tf is letting you get consecutive 5k+ burn ticks on them? They're kitten at the game.

yeah its so hard

A single stack of burn ticks for 411 dmg on the most popular burn guard build (450 on the most unrealistically maxed out for burn dmg build, let's use that instead) or wait (you can tick for 590 using the unrealistic build and a full 25 stacks of might, lets settle on this one). So yeah, you'd need over 8 stacks of burn, not just once, but consecutively to get the "not so hard consecutive 5k+ burn ticks". Again I ask, who tf is letting you maintain 8+ burn stacks on them? They're kitten at the game.

SoJ hits 5 targets and applies 4 stacks per cast. PW triggers every 3rd damage packet. SoJ hits 20 times (25 w/ fire sigil), applying 25/3= 8 aoe burn stacks. So SoJ alone applies 12 stacks of burning.

It's very realistic to run full vipers/grieving burn dh and you self apply 2 stacks of might with scepter equipped on each PW activation. 8 activations=16 might per cast.

Or we can look at scepter 2, which hits 7x per second and counts double towards PW activation so long as you're running zeal. 14/3= 4 aoe burn stacks per second = 8 might each second.

Each SoJ takes ~2s to fully apply damage. Place both on the same spot and you generate 20 aoe burn burn stacks in 2s while gaining 32 stacks of might. The key to playing it well is whether you can keep a group in place for 2s, either because they're stacked tightly or in a choke or due to immob.