Jump to content
  • Sign Up

API Designed Individual Rating System - Suggestions - Why Ranked Mode Needs Healing


Recommended Posts

@"Multicolorhipster.9751"

When the game was first released, Arenanet had written in their TOS a statement that was almost identical to: "We promise to provide a fair & competitive environment for everyone." but over the years, for some reason it turned into this:

Read this first and read it carefully -> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

Now read this under section 5. Conduct -> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

What a loophole system to avoid a baseline of fair just moderation eh? Gotta wonder why it was redesigned that way.

This is why I wanted to summon forth API development, for a community driven project that reflects player skill in a way that cheating cannot effect. If players want to keep playing this game post 2020, we're going to have to do something like this if we want clean competition. If they don't want to keep playing, then it's time to find a new game at this point. Because again, for whatever reason Arenanet is housing this certain group of players, feeding them, and allowing them to do whatever they want. Nothing has ever changed, and nothing ever will.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 55
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I’ll just have to say there’s many things that the op that says about our ranked scene that are true. In fact it is very common for some of the players that manipulate match making every season by duoing in off hours to achieve their high rank- to purposely make every attempt every single season to throw matches on alts to make players that have somehow embarrassed them by beating them in 1v1s or just being less socially awkward then them. Those same ppl that match make are also know for going into discord and they start rumors about other players and accuse them for match manipulation whenever they get a title or something because if they didn’t lie about all the other players in the game then ppl who realize that they are incredibly little in real life and game. The scene could use a good shake up imo, let’s see if it happens

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Multicolorhipster.9751"

When the game was first released, Arenanet had written in their TOS a statement that was almost identical to: "We promise to provide a fair & competitive environment for everyone." but over the years, for some reason it turned into this:

Read this first and read it carefully -> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

Now read this under section 5. Conduct -> https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

What a loophole system to avoid a baseline of fair just moderation eh? Gotta wonder why it was redesigned that way.

I know some people who handle player reports and they're super nice people that do a great job, but I don't know/never asked how they approach PvP.

You'd think for violating rules 9&22 on that list it would be a permaban. That's how they handled those dudes on EU not only manipulating the outcome of matches, but also essentially selling it as a service and sharing accounts.

5 dozen accounts - Permabanned.

Meanwhile; same thing happens on NA, albeit with content creators and partners... 3 month PvP ban. Keep ranked titles.And that's just the time they were actually caught. I can't name names, but check out this thread and read some of the comments from certain people: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36623/congratz-r55-congratz-team-usa-but-special-remark-to-mr-helio-for-the-fair-play

Clearly we are dealing with masters of subterfuge, hiding their foul deeds with humility. It is no wonder at they haven't been caught. ???

This is why I wanted to summon forth API development, for a community driven project that reflects player skill in a way that cheating cannot effect. If players want to keep playing this game post 2020, we're going to have to do something like this if we want clean competition. If they don't want to keep playing, then it's time to find a new game at this point. Because again, for whatever reason Arenanet is housing this certain group of players, feeding them, and allowing them to do whatever they want. Nothing has ever changed, and nothing ever will.

Anyway, I think it's a good idea. I'm just looking at it realistically. I don't think PvP is a big development focal point so I don't expect a big rework of the ranked system.

Thinking well within the realm of what is possible, I just think the option to Solo/YoloQ separately would accomplish essentially the same thing.Would also like to see wintrading punished heavily going forward because when certain top players can't metagame to play the matchmaker, history has shown they'll switch to their wallet to fix matches matches instead.

Should be the same punishment no matter the player, and that's permabanned. Preferably IP and Hardware ID bans if possible to truly inconvenience them the most.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" said:And that's just the time they were actually caught. I can't name names, but check out this thread and read some of the comments from certain people: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36623/congratz-r55-congratz-team-usa-but-special-remark-to-mr-helio-for-the-fair-play

Clearly we are dealing with masters of subterfuge, hiding their foul deeds with humility. It is no wonder at they haven't been caught. ???

I just see a pro league exp player with high title , streamed getting it solo btw, berating groups of players for misdeeds followed by other pro league exp players claiming that said person was never relevant cuz of pro scene and therefore ppl with known misdoing are good... lol.Seems psus

Edit: Maybe it was a joke tell me if I’m wrongIme in competitive environments a lot of ppl like to tussle or fight other ppl, but cheating doesn’t make any fight better and actually detracts from the value of the scene same goes for things like flaming ppl in ranked, if ur any good why fight ppl u think aren’t and why act like ppl that aren’t good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dantheman.3589 said:I just see a pro league exp player with high title , streamed getting it solo btw, berating groups of players for misdeeds followed by other pro league exp players claiming that said person was never relevant cuz of pro scene and therefore ppl with known misdoing are good... lol.Seems psus

Edit: Maybe it was a joke tell me if I’m wrong

It's innocent until proven guilty, so its up to you whether or not you believe them to be guilty or not.

I will say that when someone is bragging about getting away with the alleged crime they're being accused of, they're usually guilty of said crime. In the comments there, there's someone doing exactly that.

Although I suppose it is entirely possible that a player that previously barely made top 250 with their best effort can suddenly shoot up to top 10, then to literally rank 1 the following season to then vanish or return back to where they were originally.

Again, I can't say exactly who's meant, but honestly you seem to be following it more than me so there might even be more than one instance there. I just bookmarked that because it was funny and baffling to me that someone was not only able to get away with wintrading, match manipulation, account sharing, and real world trading, but also to subtly brag about it opposed to just denying it or being silent

Ime in competitive environments a lot of ppl like to tussle or fight other ppl, but cheating doesn’t make any fight better and actually detracts from the value of the scene same goes for things like flaming ppl in ranked, if ur any good why fight ppl u think aren’t and why act like ppl that aren’t good.

I get heroes and villains in a competitive scene and I appreciate that. I don't think this person fits the ticket because aside from like 2-3~ individual ranked seasons they've been absent from or at the mid-bottom of the NA leaderboard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm at a mid-tier rating. For me the problems are different: I don't see a big problem with win-trading and stuff. Must happen more at the top where people "know each other". (Cause the ones at the top always will be a few only.) I don't see how a different system would change this. People that know each other and work together to do win-trading and stuff ... would still work together to boost their rating with the different rating system.

On the other hand: On the lower tiers you have the horrible experience of getting huge loss streaks (then win streaks again). When at some higher rating andf you get wins and losses a few ... you notice "hey I'm good enough to play here ... sometimes a win ... sometimes a loss so it's not like I'm too bad to play here to affect my team that much to make them lose every time". Then suddenly those loss streaks where people fight off point while you did not much wrong. Or losing only by a slow marging but getting the full rating loss. Winning big and getting the same full one (but getting a smaller value) ...

I know on a high amount of played matches it shouldn't matter and be distributed the same for every player so you eventually would stay at your correct rating. It still feels discouraging and might make peole stop. I'd rather play unranked - which also comes with less team member getting tocix in chat because of their score (blaming others).

My favorite way to handle thins would be: To not have any visible rating at all (keep it still in background for matchmaking but show it to no one). Or if you have it visible ... then at least full transparency. Show full rating for all players of both teams from the beginning of the match.

  • some "karma" voting system for nice players. I know from another game you could give one +1 or -1 to a player - didn't matter which team. But only 1 vote. You decided to do a + or a - (or to not vote at all) and to which player to give it. "Toxic" players could get voted down and matchmaker could use a priority system trying to group toxics with low karma with each other. (But again: People probably would abuse the hell out of such a system. Makin alts trying to vote themselves, etc.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Luthan.5236 said:My favorite way to handle thins would be: To not have any visible rating at all (keep it still in background for matchmaking but show it to no one). Or if you have it visible ... then at least full transparency. Show full rating for all players of both teams from the beginning of the match.

I've been considering an idea like that for quite some time now.

As detailed in the OP post, it explains that people get disappointed and leave when they're being made to look like trash in the rating system as they are gamed by people who are using them to make themselves look amazing. If they were to actually remove displayed rating entirely, along with division badge icons, it would probably be the healthiest thing for the community at this point.

It's a simple fix really:

  • Remove Ranked entirely
  • Shove the rewards for Ranked season over to Unranked play
  • No longer display a leaderboard or badge icons for Unranked play
  • Leave ATs for a competitive scene, and alternatively they could base badge icons and rating for AT play actually. ATs are much more difficult to match manipulate than solo/duo ranked. There are ways that they can do it, but they can't synch queue a bunch of goons to land in your team and throw, is the thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah so I was looking at this -> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/API:Main

I know nothing about how any of this works, but it doesn't look like an API tool could access the kind of data we would need for an individual rating system.

Fortunately, I have an idea for something different. I'll post it today soon at some point here, in a different thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are multiple things that are wrong with this game and reason il never take it seriously:

1:Wintraders2:Bots and hackers ruining matches for everyone.3:slow games.4:Breaking classes by nerfing them into the ground so a class you really enjoy have no role. See mesmer problems in PVP warrior and the people asking for nec to be nerfed into the ground.5:People who Q_Q for nerfs getting their wishes, because can't listen to those who cry the loudest whether or not its the right way to nerf something. If rev, for instance, is broken in condi burst, and other stuff, then it needs delicate changes with a scalpel to not upset the class balance, not a chainsaw. Anet should be listening to people who play the class and ask for nerfs more than some person who doesn't understand said class, and thus breaks it, or better yet: Have a test server where people can test stuff and have a group of devs is representing each class. Is the thief class problematic? test it out. Is there a better way to improve mesmers without having it destroyed? test it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:I just see a pro league exp player with high title , streamed getting it solo btw, berating groups of players for misdeeds followed by other pro league exp players claiming that said person was never relevant cuz of pro scene and therefore ppl with known misdoing are good... lol.Seems psus

Edit: Maybe it was a joke tell me if I’m wrong

It's innocent until proven guilty, so its up to you whether or not you believe them to be guilty or not.

I will say that when someone is bragging about getting away with the alleged crime they're being accused of, they're usually guilty of said crime. In the comments there, there's someone doing exactly that.

Although I suppose it is entirely possible that a player that previously barely made top 250 with their best effort can suddenly shoot up to top 10, then to literally rank 1 the following season to then vanish or return back to where they were originally.

Again, I can't say exactly who's meant, but honestly you seem to be following it more than me so there might even be more than one instance there. I just bookmarked that because it was funny and baffling to me that someone was not only able to get away with wintrading, match manipulation, account sharing, and real world trading, but also to subtly brag about it opposed to just denying it or being silent

Ime in competitive environments a lot of ppl like to tussle or fight other ppl, but cheating doesn’t make any fight better and actually detracts from the value of the scene same goes for things like flaming ppl in ranked, if ur any good why fight ppl u think aren’t and why act like ppl that aren’t good.

I get heroes and villains in a competitive scene and I appreciate that. I don't think this person fits the ticket because aside from like 2-3~ individual ranked seasons they've been absent from or at the mid-bottom of the NA leaderboard.

I mean yeah I see what ur talking about, said player whom ppl think win traded.I will say though that some ppl will use win trading arguement for bad purposes. Like I already know that there’s groups of “top teir players” like team USA on NA currently trying to spread slander rumors about me, claiming I win traded by getting top 10 on this account solo q and top 25 on my other solo even though I barely play the game anymore so I find it just random asf.But the worst part of all this is just like I said before in this thread, they aren’t doing this for moral value they are spreading these rumors because they are trying to lie to cover up the fact that they got caught publically sperging and acting imo like a bunch of crack heads on discord so now all these “top teir players” need to try and lie to the whole community and pretend the 1 guy who actually solo qd to get legit titles is a win trader. That’s the part about the fake “ethics” that really sucks and they are known wintraders/banned players at this point the scene may not be able to handle these ppl anymore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dantheman.3589

Yeeeeah, it's everyone's favorite word when a good player is actually good. There are quite a few that are actually good too.

Honestly I think the actions of the handful of 'bad' people; the actual wintraders and metagamers, just outshine a lot of the good pretty often. That's probably why everyone on here and in the lobby map chat is paraphrasing The Crucible.

Unless there's solid evidence like video/screenshot proof, Arenanet taking action, or in this case just pretty much admitting to it, then it's just he said/she said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OP, I'm with you on all that you listed. The hackers, the open sabotaging, the immaturity, the toxicity, however...

...you and many others still refuse to admit that the matchmaking algorithm itself IS the problem. The matchmaking system pretty much encourages this behavior. You talk about "match outcomes", but match outcomes are the results of the algorithm! The matchmaking algorithm has a clear weakness in that it's, as you said, easy to manipulate. You cannot just brush that aside. The matchmaking may not have been as big as an issue in the past with higher population masking its flaws, but now with low population, the flaws are explicitly clear. We were all new players back then, we didn't know how the system worked so the problem wasn't visible. But NOW, that people have figured out how to game the system, the system is irrelevant. Any matchmaking system that practically encourages people to game the system and punishes those who play by the rules is not a good system. That system needs to be destroyed and abolished. Also, you don't need to be "deep in the community" to know that the system doesn't work! I'm sorry, but I smell a little gatekeeping there. People who are new will eventually figure out that they're not progressing in the ranks despite of how much they practice, in time they'll eventually figure out the scam and then they leave.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had to make the hard decision today to walk away from Guild Wars 2. This has gotten to be too much.

All morning I witnessed unbelievable levels of blatant HACKING and throw war queue sniping in my games. This stuff wasn't directed at me, it was some group of players going against some other group of players and I was being caught in the middle of it. And then I came across a thief who's name starts with an N, which I am sure most of you already know exactly who I'm talking about, and boy oh boy had I never seen hacking until I had seen this guy hacking. We aren't talking someone who is sneaky with using speedhack during a stealth. Oh no, THIS guy was like 1v1ing three different people on 3 different nodes with blatant shameless use of telehack.

After the barrage complete monkey @#$% that I had witnessed this morning, it was in that moment that I realized it was time to find a new game to play.

GGs to those who kept it clean over the years.

My discord is: TSBoyer#3149 for anyone who wishes to contact me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I had to make the hard decision today to walk away from Guild Wars 2. This has gotten to be too much.

All morning I witnessed unbelievable levels of blatant HACKING and throw war queue sniping in my games. This stuff wasn't directed at me, it was some group of players going against some other group of players and I was being caught in the middle of it. And then I came across a thief who's name starts with an N, which I am sure most of you already know exactly who I'm talking about, and boy oh boy had I never seen hacking until I had seen this guy hacking. We aren't talking someone who is sneaky with using speedhack during a stealth. Oh no, THIS guy was like 1v1ing three different people on 3 different nodes with blatant shameless use of telehack.

After the barrage complete monkey @#$% that I had witnessed this morning, it was in that moment that I realized it was time to find a new game to play.

GGs to those who kept it clean over the years.

My discord is: TSBoyer#3149 for anyone who wishes to contact me.

Thanks for all the insight you've brought. I've also given up on PvP because of all the things you've mentioned in this thread. Franky, Anet needs to ditch ranked entirely, move the rewards to unranked, and crack down on hacking. I like the individual rating system, and they should look into that. But they need to fix this first. They'll get a lot more people playing PvP, if it becomes fun again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I had to make the hard decision today to walk away from Guild Wars 2. This has gotten to be too much.

All morning I witnessed unbelievable levels of blatant HACKING and throw war queue sniping in my games. This stuff wasn't directed at me, it was some group of players going against some other group of players and I was being caught in the middle of it. And then I came across a thief who's name starts with an N, which I am sure most of you already know exactly who I'm talking about, and boy oh boy had I never seen hacking until I had seen this guy hacking. We aren't talking someone who is sneaky with using speedhack during a stealth. Oh no, THIS guy was like 1v1ing three different people on 3 different nodes with blatant shameless use of telehack.

After the barrage complete monkey @#$% that I had witnessed this morning, it was in that moment that I realized it was time to find a new game to play.

GGs to those who kept it clean over the years.

My discord is: TSBoyer#3149 for anyone who wishes to contact me.

Sorry to see you go, OP. I don't blame you one bit. I'm slowly getting to that point myself once again, the community is ruining this thing for me. I can't stomach another edgy smartass in-game trying to instigate crap in my teams and openly sabotaging games as soon as things don't go your way. It's like...you're costing me pips with your stupidity...Ranked has stupidly slow progression thanks to this matchmaking system. Losses are costly. This kind of thing is happening more often now. Worse, people even attempt to rationalize it. If insolent, arrogant and toxic people want this game so bad to themselves, then they can have it. They can have its carcass. I'm 35 years of age and I have ZERO patience for this shit. I have other games and wonders to play. pvp is pretty much the only thing keeping me in this game.

However, to make things somewhat lighthearted, today in a match I was accused of "throwing" even though I was camping at a home point for a while since it kept getting decapped! Apparently, you can't even play the game according to the basic rules or you get accused of "throwing"!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Luthan.5236" said:My favorite way to handle thins would be: To not have any visible rating at all (keep it still in background for matchmaking but show it to no one). Or if you have it visible ... then at least full transparency. Show full rating for all players of both teams from the beginning of the match.

I've been considering an idea like that for quite some time now.

As detailed in the OP post, it explains that people get disappointed and leave when they're being made to look like trash in the rating system as they are gamed by people who are using them to make themselves look amazing. If they were to actually remove displayed rating entirely, along with division badge icons, it would probably be the healthiest thing for the community at this point.

It's a simple fix really:
  • Remove Ranked entirely
  • Shove the rewards for Ranked season over to Unranked play
  • No longer display a leaderboard or badge icons for Unranked play
  • Leave ATs for a competitive scene, and alternatively they could base badge icons and rating for AT play actually. ATs are much more difficult to match manipulate than solo/duo ranked. There are ways that they can do it, but they can't synch queue a bunch of goons to land in your team and throw, is the thing.

I think we could compare it to school and parents rewarding or punishing their kids if they get good or bad grades. Currently the game feel like it is punishing too hard afor a loss while not encouraging enough to win. And yeah ... thing like you suggested might solve the problem a bit. While still keeping tournaments for people that care about such stuff instead of playing for fun only.

Compared to school: A parent that almost beats his kids to death if they only barely pass some classes. While only saying "that was okay" without further reward - if they get top scores somewhere.

That's how GW2s rating system works atm - in my opinion. I mean ... my team barely wins the match an we fought hard for that win and we only get a +12 or so while for losing -15 ... bad decision. (And a lot of people have that problem.) You can't even "win bigger" in the matches were you win cause the score from tha victory points in the match difference isn't even taken into account.

Isn't worth puting any effort into it. The game encourages "surrendering early" (even though there is no vote system you can just play worse on purpose to end if faster when you notice that you might lose). Also for toxic players appearing in chat ... why not lose to enjoy them even more raging? If you lose anway or they distract people with their toxic behavior and chatting. (Chatting instead playing already means 1 player less.if one guy chats permanently and is toxic.)

I still have PvE (and might try WvW again) - but I can understand if people that mainly played for PvP are leaving the game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 before I waste my time reading the same arguments for n times.give me straightforward reply.Do you know a single game with similar concept, that did not backfire ? at least 1 example?

Fortnite

Super Smash Bros

anything that is even close to what gw2 is?fortnite is a joke and super smash bros is 1v1 game.

lol what

Both of those games might actually be the top 2 most successful pvp video game titles that the world has ever seen. Both use individual stat systems along with trackers for general win/loss rate. The psychological theory behind these games is that "the players always feel like they are winning even if they are losing" which is what I was explaining in the OP post, about what GW2 ranked is missing. Go watch some youtube videos about it, there are plenty that explain why those two game titles have been successful on unprecedented levels.

And if you think Smash Bros is a 1v1 game, well I guess this discussion is over before it began.

i play smash competitively and doubles barely counts. its 90% of the time 1v1. what are you even talking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Davinci.7680 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@Trevor Boyer.6524 before I waste my time reading the same arguments for n times.give me straightforward reply.Do you know a single game with similar concept, that did not backfire ? at least 1 example?

Fortnite

Super Smash Bros

anything that is even close to what gw2 is?fortnite is a joke and super smash bros is 1v1 game.

lol what

Both of those games might actually be the top 2 most successful pvp video game titles that the world has ever seen. Both use individual stat systems along with trackers for general win/loss rate. The psychological theory behind these games is that "the players always feel like they are winning even if they are losing" which is what I was explaining in the OP post, about what GW2 ranked is missing. Go watch some youtube videos about it, there are plenty that explain why those two game titles have been successful on unprecedented levels.

And if you think Smash Bros is a 1v1 game, well I guess this discussion is over before it began.

i play smash competitively and doubles barely counts. its 90% of the time 1v1. what are you even talking about?

Depends what branch you're running through in your local area.

Most of the tournaments presented in my local area were all ffa. Only once did we ever have 1v1 that was linked to national finals.

The game does offer after all,1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4, and up to 8 player ffa.

You could claim that "1v1 is the most prestigious smash format" but claiming that the Smash series is a 1v1 game is just plainly incorrect. The entire series is designed from the ground up to be a ffa game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...