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Something new for WvW..


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@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Weert Gilders.6823 said:New wvw map is not useless, people like to fight in a different space other than the same keep/the same spots everytime.

Hm, the 2 Maps wvw got (Dessert border & EotM) tell a different story. Both had a lot of new idea's and got done with much love for details, but both only got a kitten-storm in the forum. I would never do another map for WvW after that.

That is probably the most oversimplified and misinformed statement I’ve read today.

Congratulations.

Doesn't have to be complex to be accurate. People in wvw forums are pretty simple.

Nerf them, buff me, gimme fat loot.

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yeah new content and updating of current one and mechanics (heavy reduction of the npc-animals numbers and all set to green so non-aggro to nobody) would be heavily required.

PoF map still not existing, EotM still not updated and made a regular map.

for Red Border: it could be re-worked, so it would be made smaller. fightwise people mainly hate that it's just too huge, walking from one side of the map to the other takes quite some time.

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@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:yeah new content and updating of current one and mechanics (heavy reduction of the npc-animals numbers and all set to green so non-aggro to nobody) would be heavily required.

PoF map still not existing, EotM still not updated and made a regular map.

for Red Border: it could be re-worked, so it would be made smaller. fightwise people mainly hate that it's just too huge, walking from one side of the map to the other takes quite some time.It it doesnt take much time (especially not when the shortcuts are active). The problem is and always has been the the fact that the towers and keeps doesnt naturally connect. If anything, there should have been about 4-6 more towers and about as many more camps on the map. And maybe even an additional central SM style keep. If you are just looking at "its too huge" you might as well complain over EB too... yet no one seem to be bothered there.

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@"Dayra.7405" said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

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Would be nice if there was a reason to actually win, Anet spent years adjusting how the scoring works and I have no idea why. Every week it's just your random group of servers fighting a different random group of servers, they used to give you PvE bonuses based on how well you did in WvW, but then they got rid of that. Anet also used to give you a couple extra rank up chests at the end of the week if your server won, but I can't even remember the last time I received extra rank up chests so I guess they got rid of that too. Over the last 5 years the only new content that has been added to WvW is a badly implemented mount.

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@Lalary.3561 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

Haha, that happened as these "real dedicated WvW players" made so much noise in the forum that the "non-stop happy k-train" on EotM gets to much Loot and more than the real WvW players and also attracts urgently needed players away from WvW where they where urgently needed.ANet listend to these "real dedicated WvW players" don't gave the loot needed for legendary armor in EotM, and now you got them all (as wanted), but ofc they continue to do their "non-stop happy k-train" just now in WvW instead of EotM. :)

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@Waffler.1257 said:Would be nice if there was a reason to actually win,

Obviously (at least for EU) there is already enough reason to win, such that already enough (to disturb the balance Relinking achieves) players choose the winning team of the next 2 month and transfer to it for 500+ gems each week after a Relink.

More reasons to win will only lead to more pay2win via transfers

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@Dayra.7405 said:

@Dayra.7405 said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

Haha, that happened as these "real dedicated WvW players" made so much noise in the forum that the "non-stop happy k-train" on EotM gets to much Loot and more than the real WvW players and also attracts urgently needed players away from WvW where they where urgently needed.ANet listend to these "real dedicated WvW players" don't gave the loot needed for legendary armor in EotM, and now you got them all (as wanted), but ofc they continue to do their "non-stop happy k-train" just now in WvW instead of EotM. :)Yeah, we dont want happy players in our WvW!

Wait.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:Reconsider? I'm not even sure they really considered it to begin with. Seems like there is no one passionate about WvW left at Anet. They still havent fixed the broken DBL wall segment.

The sad fact is that NOBODY has been passionate about WvW at Anet since Mike Fergusson and Matt Witter. #maintenancemode

Welcome to Arenanet, where the company Motto is, "It's just a job".

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@Dayra.7405 said:

@"Waffler.1257" said:Would be nice if there was a reason to actually win,

Obviously (at least for EU) there is already enough reason to win, such that already enough (to disturb the balance Relinking achieves) players choose the winning team of the next 2 month and transfer to it for 500+ gems each week after a Relink.

More reasons to win will only lead to more pay2win via transfers

what? especially for EU here, there's about Zero reason to win, outside of "manipulating" matchups. usually servers decide before the matchup goes even live if they wanna tank or win or stay. at least the core servers do that, the links obviously have to transfer around if they want a specific matchup.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:yeah new content and updating of current one and mechanics (heavy reduction of the npc-animals numbers and all set to green so non-aggro to nobody) would be heavily required.

for Red Border: it could be re-worked, so it would be made smaller. fightwise people mainly hate that it's just too huge, walking from one side of the map to the other takes quite some time.It it doesnt take much time (especially not when the shortcuts are active). The problem is and always has been the the fact that the towers and keeps doesnt naturally connect. If anything, there should have been about 4-6 more towers and about as many more camps on the map. And maybe even an additional central SM style keep. If you are just looking at "its too huge" you might as well complain over EB too... yet no one seem to be bothered there.

yeah IF the shortcuts are active, and only for the owning factions... the terrain is very hill-dominated, a bit too much even i'd say.

and any time we fought there, running back to the fighting spots been just tedious. ofc, best would be if you never die, just with a potato PC and even worse web that's harder than one with a good equipment might guess. fighting tags often even skip desert border for this very reason.

I'd also have this silly "borderlands bloodlust" gone in its current form. it should get activated when you're outnumbered only, map-wide. the ruins are just annoying in their current form.

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Remove the full blobs(queue) where 90% uses ministrelswould be a great adition to WvW.Minstrell stats needs the same treatment like celestial stats had.

Minstrells ScourgesMinstrell Tempest,Minstrell SpekllbreakersMinstrell ScrappersMinstrell FirebrandsFound some very tanky reapers (3k power on rev hiting 75 damage seriously??)Minstrells chronos

Removing toughness from minstrell and add more to healing power and some other stat would be a great adition.I hate to see very bad players being carried due sheer numbers barrier and ministrel blobs.

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@"Aeolus.3615" said:Remove the full blobs(queue) where 90% uses ministrelswould be a great adition to WvW.Removing toughness from minstrell and add more to healing power and some other stat would be a great adition.

I hate to see very bad players being carried due sheer numbers barrier and ministrel blobs.I always find it funny when people say that bad players are carried by tanky builds because being able to focus your damage is an important aspect of being considered good as a group.

Good players tend to work against the norms. When power burst was OP they would find inventive ways to tank. When tank is considered OP they will find inventive ways to optimize their damage. When people here whined about boon-trains in 2016 hardly any of the good groups played them. That, of course, doesn't mean that we can't discuss the balance of things, balance issues do exist, but all this whining about "bads" and norms just muddles the discussion.

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@Lalary.3561 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

WvW players aren't competitive. Which is why they are playing WvW, something that as a skilled, competitive PvP game mode is an absolute joke.

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@zinkz.7045 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

WvW players aren't competitive. Which is why they are playing WvW, something that as a skilled, competitive PvP game mode is an absolute joke.

Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

Have you heard that they nerfed Shattered Aegis?

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@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

@"Waffler.1257" said:Would be nice if there was a reason to actually win,

Obviously (at least for EU) there is already enough reason to win, such that already enough (to disturb the balance Relinking achieves) players choose the winning team of the next 2 month and transfer to it for 500+ gems each week after a Relink.

More reasons to win will only lead to more pay2win via transfers

what? especially for EU here, there's about Zero reason to win, outside of "manipulating" matchups. usually servers decide before the matchup goes even live if they wanna tank or win or stay. at least the core servers do that, the links obviously have to transfer around if they want a specific matchup.

If you would put the blinder of your own mood aside and look around, you could see, that after the relink end of may first FSP went from very high to full and afterwards UW went from medium to high and this produced enough WTJ-overstacking to dominate T1 from last week till next relink.

And this WTJ-overstacking happen after every relink.

So there are people that PAY to WIN WvW every 2 month. Don‘t ask me why, but they do.

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You got to figure out how to win in the mode you enjoy because not many will play the mode based on your own rules. I mean at what point can we force people to participate in our perception?

I.e. when I see a blob waiting to fight us when I know we're only 20, we'd port to take some camp tower elsewhere.

Or when we bait a Zerg to our choke, why would they go in if they know the moment they do, it's death?

And I can't even choose to push a fight even if my guys want to when I know we don't have the classes to fight the opposing team. All good coms can predict the near future based on 15 minutes or less or a team's performance.

So it's best to choose a strategy that is universally applicable. :3. Of course one team will have to lose.

An organized team will have the following:

  1. Smoke fields (ranger/engi/thief)
  2. Well scourges
  3. Winds warriors
  4. Alacrity renegades
  5. Quickness firebrands
  6. Some form of pulls i.e. mesmer
  7. Juggler/perifery players

Of course players have a lot of alts and those alts cant sustain or survive without siege fights x camp fights vs guards .

One strate i want to do right now is have 15 to 20 players playing firebrands minstrels to tank the enemy and the rest a cloud of players knowing how to move fast. A coordinated body block

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:Remove the full blobs(queue) where 90% uses ministrelswould be a great adition to WvW.Removing toughness from minstrell and add more to healing power and some other stat would be a great adition.

I hate to see very bad players being carried due sheer numbers barrier and ministrel blobs.I always find it funny when people say that bad players are carried by tanky builds because being able to focus your damage is an important aspect of being considered good as a group. Why are you and your friends so bad that you can't kill a toothless minstrel blob? B)

Good players tend to work against the norms. When power burst was OP they would find inventive ways to tank. When tank is considered OP they will find inventive ways to optimize their damage. When people here whined about boon-trains in 2016 hardly any of the good groups played them. That, of course, doesn't mean that we can't discuss the balance of things, balance issues do exist, but all this whining about "bads" and norms just muddles the discussion.

The more we tiered up worse is the skill of the players in NA WvW, and the number of mistrells/tanky blobs increases by alot, seriously by really alot....!

Thats the thing, we, when we loose and we are beated by better guilds we know when we loose to decent groups, if we got countered or if the loose came form out mistakes. ATM best blob means stack sheer numbers with tanky sustains with perma boons, and a tons of scourges, srappers and FB's, and even when removing boons it gets added again, atm there is an abuse of the MIN MAX stats effect that is causing issues to the game, players should focus on stats for the roles not using max sustain possible with perma alacrity on sustain build, perma quickness on the ovestacked firebrands, theres quite some things atm that are overshadowing the possible improvement of thergameplay.

For my observation a somewhat decent guild based on dps bombs a heavy bunker blob group they could sustain quite easilly w/o dodging much due tons of barrier and oversdtacking boons , note that minstrells stats were added to the game when the damage ouput was very strong to( was actually easy to get carrier with dps at that time), reason minstrell was good for that gameplay.

Im not asking to removal of minstrell, but toning down toughness or removing it for other stats would be a good change to the gameplay it self.

Any group with such sustain is NOT HARD to do a well huge blob/queue bomb in places to hit targets, most players wont even notice what is happening outside the frontline. Cause they know their damage to them is minimal, this isnt being good(even a bad players can leech from such gameplay, and wont show if a group it that good when under damage pressure) is just finding a way to win w/o most even know whats hapenign in the batlefield and still win, thats the real issues on fully tanky blobs.Making a well made bomb to targets where u risk to gain the rewards is skilled, if there isnt risk theres just the reward ...and game should be balanced towards that risk for reward, even if a groups plays soly to counter centain group tactics, cause that will create the rock paper effect*

IF something similiar to celestial happens to minstrell maybe those groups will show how really good they are actually, if gets worse or better to them that with them.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:Whenever something new came, be it a new map, gliding, mounts or whatever the complaints where much louder then the Applaus. It simply doesn’t make sense to put effort into wvw.

Then maybe Anet should actually listen to real dedicated WvW players next time rather than trying to attract noncompetive players and turn WvW maps into non-stop happy k-train zones with no "gankers" on horizon.

WvW players aren't competitive. Which is why they are playing WvW, something that as a skilled, competitive PvP game mode is an absolute joke.

Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

Just telling the truth.

It is a game mode that has:

  • tryhards vs casuals
  • players with thousands of hours vs those with a hundred
  • 18 years old vs 60 year olds
  • does not even have the same number of people on each team

It is probably the least competitive PvP I've ever seen, as is the playerbase.

Twelve year old school kids at lunch break who choose two captains to alternate picks for teams for football and then switch players mid match if one team is winning too easily, demonstrate far more competitiveness than the laughable WvW playerbase. (who for the most part do the opposite, showing their true colours)

You want to see the reaction of an actual competitive PvP gamer to WvW, then go find Helseth's stream where he goes into WvW after they added the ability to queue for PvP from there. He goes to EB, ends up at a duelling spot, 1v1s a warrior, wins, then says something along the lines of "this is stupid I could just kite him", then promptly goes back to PvP.

The most competitive thing in WvW is seeing who has the highest level of Dunning-Kruger.

Which incidentally is a big reason it failed, decent PvP requires a certain level of competitiveness, WvW lacks the mechanisms to produce that, so most of the time you get trash tier PvP, that isn't much fun to anyone who isn't, well...

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@zinkz.7045 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

Just telling the truth.

I know you are, it is just funny to me that you feel a need to constantly point that out :3 .

I mean, as far as the game mode itself goes the mode was not designed to be competetive while sPvP was. Nothing is supported so whatever rules apply to impromtu content (like duels or skirmishes) are only gentlemanly rules and if more structured events are made by players they are still only player-made.

However, if one was to argue the point for the sake of arguing it, then there are obviously competetive players in WvW despite whatever Helseth felt about it. Several of the top sPvP teams have players in them who frequent WvW (Sind, Crann etc.).

Also, sPvP in its tournament form is gravitating towards TDM now, finally. That has always been the most interesting competetive format to most of us in this game. That is also a competetive form that has more overlap between sPvP and WvW, with potential to attract more players from both modes than 'rotating for flags' does, especially considering that the combat system in this game is arguably better at a party-level than at a sole player-level.

WvW has always had GvG, and while sometimes a competition, it obviously has never been fully competetive (it needs a larger pool, more traction and some support to become that), but that at its heart is still TDM so the same concept as the current sPvP tournaments (or WoW Arenas or whatever else that is more competetive). Then scale will affect how people receive it as a viewer 'sport' but that goes for any sport. Team sports premier different skillsets. Ronaldo is fast for a footballer and Bolt can dribble for a sprinter.

Ultimately, that ties into what I believe that most people mean when they talk about being "competetive" in WvW (looking past players and player-made competition). It isn't as much about competing in a competition as it is to match up to available content. It may be a misnomer but it isn't so far-fetched that the dots can't be connected. It is being competetive in the sense of rising to the occassion and interact with whatever content is on the table.

That's also one of the things that appeal to me, at least in theory, that all these things that you list that are not competetive in terms of sport are what can potentially make WvW appealing because the diversity offer different routes to match up. For example, the worse can "compete" (as in match up, interact to produce content) with the better by padding more numbers. Sadly, the mode isn't perhaps even that anymore since alot of the diversity has been lost.

Still, better overlap in TDM and fixing the structure of the sandbox could reverse some of the negative trends and has the potential for more.

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@subversiontwo.7501 said:

Zinkz, the Caysadia of player-trolling B)

Just telling the truth.

I know you are, it is just funny to me that you feel a need to constantly point that out :3 .

Constantly? I've made 9 posts in total on the forum this year (well 10 now), given how often one or another WvW role player bangs on about skill or competitiveness, I think I am being quite restrained these days. :)

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the only competitive situation in WvW really is Guildfights. those are difficult enough to get, because many servers' comms run away across the whole map or add in on happening fights. getting that on even numbers only works if the commanders first made an appointment to fight. and even then, some just don't show up.

@zinkz.7045 what kinda pointless comment is that though? he wins one duel and thinks he's too good for this? not that we need duelers, really. but i've won several random 1v1's with zergbuilds, sometimes without half trinkets equipped etc... it's a complete diceroll who you fight there

pvpers have other skills, but they're mostly not useful for WvW. killing one guy overall doesn't give you much when you're in a 15 vs 35 fight etc. unless u can repeat it long, and pvpers aren't used to long fights at all. i barely played pvp, but those who present their plat ranks in wvw are usually not more of a challenge than your casual cele scrouge pug.

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