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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem


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@Khisanth.2948 said:Meh ... there are just some crazy people. Like those asking for LI to do Shiverpeak Pass ?

On the other hand I was also in a group the other day that insisted on doing Cold War with 0 healer.

As for strikes being a step to raids, I don't think any of them would help with that except maybe WoJ.If someone is asking for LIs ONLY for doing shiverpeaks its stupid but i rarely see raiders only doing 1 strike and ask for LIs.Raid playerscusually do all the strikes it 25min or so

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

Yes yes u are true but if anet reduces the loot from strikes they will probably die after a while bec casuals will learn them and step into raiding and will not look back for doing strikes again and current raiders wouldnt do it too.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

Yes yes u are true but if anet reduces the loot from strikes they will probably die after a while bec casuals will learn them and step into raiding and will not look back for doing strikes again and current raiders wouldnt do it too.

Isnt that what they wanted?

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@"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:The LI/KP system is something we have in the game for years. It is necessary so experienced players can play in groups which meet their quality standards.

and

I would like to see a better LFG for the Strike Missions. So players who are interested in trying this content out do not get into the same channel as the experienced players. Just a split into starter & experienced. Both with their own LFG and LFM channel. That would stop the confusion in my opinion.

As you said, having requirements for content is necessary for experienced players and that's perfectly fine, however, the problem with Strike Missions is that they require "proofs" from content that they are supposed to be the "bridge" to. Even if they add two different LFG sections, one for starter players and one for experienced players, the main problem would still be there, the experienced section requiring kill proofs from Raids, so a Strike player will forever stay a "starter" player, unless they first go into Raids, get LI/KP and then go back to Strike Missions to try the experienced section. It's a bit backwards and splitting LFG entries would not fix this problem. It would help starter players get into starter groups, but they would never be given the chance to go to experienced groups, as they cannot earn what is required to do so by playing Strike Missions using the "starter" LFG. Even training Raids allow you to earn LI/KP to join actual Raids.

The better solution would be to add something similar to LI/KP from actual Strike Missions. Something to prove that a player has experience in a specific Strike Mission so experienced teams don't have to rely on proofs from other content. There is a lot of hate and drama over the concept of kill proofs which is maybe why Arenanet decided to not have anything of the sort for Strike Missions, but this backfired. The shards/crystals aren't good enough as you can get them from multiple strike missions ranging from ridiculously easy, to mid difficulty, they are no indication of experience. Or an even better solution, make clearly visible the amount of times a player has finished the content so there is no pinging, no external websites, no hoarding of items, no drama involved. Just like Fractal level and agony resistance.

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@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

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Anyone who tells you "Just make your own group xD!" doesn't understand that you can't magically make 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere. All the competent players will join the """good""" groups and you'll be stuck with scraps because they get to play in their own part of the playground while you're stuck on the broken down part that smells.

The solution is to make strike missions queueable only content with no premade function outside of duo/trio.

However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.

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@Nightcore.5621 said:So half the people in lfg ask for 200Li kp. Strike missions was suppose to be the step before raids or help people get into raids.. you all see the problem here?

Find it unnecessary or too high for a requirement as well. But what you could've done is form your own group(a lower requirement or none at all; your standards, not theirs). You don't need to join or beat them in their conditions, set your LFG criteria and standard. If its widely accepted and everyone does the same. In a way, you won.

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@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do.

Raiders have reached a point where they NEED new blood in raids to keep the content active, but are actively discouraging new raiders with group requirements that eliminate 99% of the player-base. I had one person outright tell me they'd rather the content die than have to play it with inexperienced players, which is pretty much what's happening. Two points:

  1. Yes, I know that experienced players often just want to easily clear the content, and will use whatever means at their disposal to create a group of experienced players to do so. I honestly see nothing wrong with this and am not arguing against it.
  2. Nobody should be forced to play with people they don't want to play with.

However, creating groups with KP requirements sends a very clear message to new players, you're not welcome here. And with raider groups doing the same thing in Strikes it won't be long before new blood for that content dries up, and Arenanet abandons it.

@kharmin.7683 said:This is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

Legendary armor is the better loot and incentive to do Raids. But they should certainly look at the rewards again since it appears that their introductory content has better short term rewards.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Cuks.8241 said:Selling in game stuff and services for in game gold is fine and should actually be encouraged.

No, this dilutes the already small player base for raids.

If anything, it keeps the sellers somewhat interested, and lets buyers see raids. Without it, the number of players raiding might be even smaller than it is now.

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@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do. The truth is, at this point, that strikes are replacing raids, not leading up to them. While that may be a temporary state of affairs, many MMO players do not take the long view.

Unfortunately that's not how people work. The easy strikes, no one asks for Li or Kp, and if they do they're just being ridiculous. For the harder strikes people ask for some sort of "proof of proficiency" just to get things over with fast and without explaining. Having more raids would not change that. people who want a fast run will still ask for "proof of proficiency" and people who don't have said proof will not be able to obtain said proof in these groups.

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:However, due to the games player base, strike missions have
COMPLETELY FAILED
at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.Yeah, that's kinda how I see it, too.

Tbh, I remember someone posting that they got over their anxiety with regards to instanced content using strikes. As such its not a complete failure. :)

Although we need more data to make an actual informed opinion. :)

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.This is poor logic.Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:However, due to the games player base, strike missions have
COMPLETELY FAILED
at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.This is poor logic.Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

Silverwastes isn't really designed to be a stepping stone to other content, so this comparison would not seem to be accurate. It has nothing to do with the similarity that you're attempting to provide with regards to fractals -- AR is there by design.

What is being said is that the intention of strikes as a stepping stone to raids is where strikes are failing. IMO, raiders should be raiding and not hanging out in strike missions but it seems that they are because the rewards are better in strikes. And because raiders are farming strikes for rewards, they are looking for specific thresholds to be met which may be preventing non-raid players from experiencing the content and thus keeping them out of raids.

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@kharmin.7683 said:IMO, raiders should be raiding and not hanging out in strike missionsThis is some of the most blatant gatekeeping I've seen in a very long time.A player is not allowed to enjoy the breadth of content offered by this game because they naturally gravitate to one or the other?People who enjoy WvW should not be hanging out in open world?Someone who does Fractals shouldn't be doing Drizzlewood?but it seems that they are because the rewards are better in strikes.

You've clearly not engaged in both content.Raids drop better loot, give a much bigger raw gold reward and offer a much faster path towards BiS gear from their currency. However they only give full rewards once a week while Strike missions do once per day.And because raiders are farming strikes for rewards, they are looking for specific thresholds to be met which may be preventing non-raid players from experiencing the content and thus keeping them out of raids.

The LFGs do not change the content.The content itself is accessible by everyone. Someone else's requirements for their team does not prevent anyone from doing Strike missions. They are absolutely accessible to a newer player either by starting their own squad or joining one who's requirements they fit.Silverwastes isn't really designed to be a stepping stone to other content, so this comparison would not seem to be accurate.Silverwastes is an easier version of Dragon's Stand.

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@"kmfart.7480" said:The root of the problem is that a few of the strike missions are way too harsh, that they are even harder than a few of the raids.

"Harder than a few of the raids"? =) In what universe? :lol: All the Strike Missions are easy peasy as long as everyone plays their role right and knows the mechanics. Some just require a bit more focus, that's all.

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@"kharmin.7683" said:IMO, raiders should be raiding and not hanging out in strike missions (...) which may be preventing non-raid players from experiencing the content (...)

lets imagine two scenarios:

  1. not a single raider is playing strikes, thus there are no squads with LI-requirements etc. in the lfg. but there are also less players doing strikes overall.
  2. you type "-LI" into the search bar in the lfg window. now every lfg with "LI" in it is filtered out.

whats the difference for you as a non-raider???how are other people's lfgs preventing you from doing strikes???

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Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/gbx4ae/my_guild_prepared_a_massive_list_of_raiding_pov/.

When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

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@lokh.2695 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Perhaps if ANet were providing raid encounters in addition to Strikes, the alleged people calling for KP would have something to do. The truth is, at this point, that strikes are replacing raids, not leading up to them. While that may be a temporary state of affairs, many MMO players do not take the long view.

Unfortunately that's not how people work. The easy strikes, no one asks for Li or Kp, and if they do they're just being ridiculous. For the harder strikes people ask for some sort of "proof of proficiency" just to get things over with fast and without explaining. Having more raids would not change that. people who want a fast run will still ask for "proof of proficiency" and people who don't have said proof will not be able to obtain said proof in these groups.

Maybe you're right. The weekly reset for raids would probably mean that even if there were new raids, some raiders would still want something else to occupy their time which they deem remotely worthy of their attention.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:Anyone who tells you "Just make your own group xD!" doesn't understand that you can't magically make 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere.Have you ever given thought to the possibility that people put KP requirements into their LFG descriptions precisely because they too can't magically make 9 other competent players appear out of nowhere?The solution is to make strike missions queueable only content with no premade function outside of duo/trio.So a group of 3 players queueing up would still face the problem that they can't magically make 7 other compentent players appear out of nowhere, yes? A lesser problem then what we started with, but claiming this is a "solution" is overselling it.However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.

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