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Li / Killproof for Strikes are a Problem


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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:Many experienced raiders do a lot to bring new players to raids. There are dedicated guilds for raid trainings and training discords.Other guilds (like Snow Crows) put a lot of work into creating the best builds (includinig guides how to play them).An EU raid training guild (RTI) made lots of raidinig PoV videos:
.

When I started raiding, there were no guides, no experienced leaders and hardly anyone had ascended equipment. It took us weeks to get Vale Guardian down. Nowadays in a wing 1 training VG should be dead and Gorseval as well. A wing 4 training often ends with bosses 1-3 killed.

What else do people want? You can get everything very fast. You just have to join a guild or discord server.

If that is still too much: open lfg, join a strike (Grothmar, Kodan, Fraenir) without requirements, ca. 5 min later you have your kill.

PS: Sorry if my text sounds a bit harsh. I'm just annoyed that some people call everyone who raids toxic in general, while many raiders put a lot of work into helping newbies to get started.

Those training guilds are literally why the raiding player base is so small and constantly shrinking, by the way. Stop bringing it up.

I'll take a hit. This is why raiding player base is so small on NA. Respectable raiders ran from NA servers to EU where players are not as "laid back" to put it lightly and can actually enjoy the content :)I've raided on both and I'm simply sorry for NA players who want to raid regularly.And literally spitting in the face of brigade of people who help create raid training communities and ignoring most prominent reasons on why raiding scene is how it is. Your Shiyo <3

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Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days. There was an external platform to form groups instead of using ingame LFG :sweat_smile:. There are some groups in LFG (on and off) thats about it. Most raids squads are formed within or among guilds and discord platform.

May be difficult to find PuG groups through LFG. But there are ways to start, as most of the players I know and in my friend list are able to join raids without any problem despite being new.

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@Ashantara.8731 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

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@"Eramonster.2718" said:Find it weird as well. It was the same back during dungeon days.Yes. The notable difference was that the groups without requirements (or with only basic ones, like "level 80 casual run") were as likely to succeed as those with high reqs. The only difference was in completion time. So, if someone didn't like the requirements, starting a "casual run" group was indeed a solution - and depending on the dungeon and path, quite often the time you lost running a past was balanced by the simple expedient of the no req groups filling way, way faster. So, while there were some complains about "elitism" in some dungeon groups, if someone didn't like that, it was extremely easy to completely ignore.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

I know of some individuals who prefer spending their KP (and LI) on guild decors and legendary armor - though ofc theres the website for killproofing, but not all players (or commanders) have the patience to check that.

For what it's worth, I do think people should respect each others' LFG posts. If someone asks for specific amount of kp, bring the kp or do not join.

Besides that, I can tell you that while some people are content and capable in raids and CM fractals and are able to get more KP, they might not have the time investment or static group or interest to stock up specific amount of KP. People play at a different pace and do different things. That does not mean one is less capable.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:However, due to the games player base, strike missions have COMPLETELY FAILED at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.Oh, that was obvious from the beginning, even before the first strikes appeared.Raids don't have big enough playerbase not because there are no stairs leading to them, but because they are a content that's either not interesting enough or too difficult (or both) for too many players. Adding some intermediate content is not going to change that. Strikes will not magically improve the skill of players running them. They will simply filter out the players according to their own difficulty level (which could be used to help Anet in deciding on where to put the difficulty level to get big enough participation for content).

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@Eramonster.2718 said:

May be difficult to find PuG groups through LFG. But there are ways to start, as most of the players I know and in my friend list are able to join raids without any problem despite being new.

The reason why people don't rely on LFG to gather members is because LFG has no way to gate badly geared or unprepared players for the content.

Such is a symptom of a game catered to a casual crowd :Gear progression stagnates, content is either too easy which causes people to grow bored due to a lack of challenge or the content provides a challenge but the public community is too unprepared to tackle it. (latter case being some raids)

This is why people come up with KPing so that people can prove that they are prepared for challenging content.

So if OP wants KPing, and the toxicity revolving KPing to go away, Anet themselves must introduce settings inside LFG with an internal skill filtering system which allows the party finder to straight up bar unprepared individuals from joining content.

This cuts out so much unnecessary frustration and arguing regarding a player which goes in totally unprepared and causes their group distress by simply not allowing to join in the first place.

Elitist? Maybe. But it is also necessary to ensure the party is up to stuff for clearing content.(And besides, what Elitist anymore? I see this term being thrown about so much to the point that I have seen individuals who have every right wanting someone to pull their weight is being called an Elitist.)

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@Cerioth.7062 said:For what it's worth, I do think people should respect each others' LFG posts. If someone asks for specific amount of kp, bring the kp or do not join.

or join and ask nicely if its ok that you have 13kp (or any other fictional number) less than required. most commanders won't make a fuss of it.just dont fake kp or join without pinging anything hoping nobody will notice...

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@Yasai.3549 said:(...) Anet themselves must introduce settings inside LFG with an internal skill filtering system which allows the party finder to straight up bar unprepared individuals from joining content. (...)

And its not even like ANet doesnt want such systems in the game at all or doesnt know how to do it. This is literally what the fractal lfg is built like.

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

Errr... excuse me?!

What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that every player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.Who would have thought that

So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

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@Yggranya.5201 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.Who would have thought that

So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

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@Ashantara.8731 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

Errr... excuse me?!

What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that
every
player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups fasterRemember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li reqEven wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

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@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

Errr... excuse me?!

What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that
every
player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups fasterRemember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li reqEven wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

False. Not all raiders go for the loot.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:However, due to the games player base, strike missions have
COMPLETELY FAILED
at their intended design of "introduction to raiding" and no amount of mental gymnastics by raiders can prove this wrong.This is poor logic.Are fractals a failure because they hard bake in an experience check via AR?

Just because Strikes are on farm and the farmers expect certain things from their groups does not say anything about the actual content or the way the majority of the population is using it.And from my experience (200+ strikes running Open Pugs) and looking at the numbers in Arc a very wide range of skill levels are represented by the players are joining my groups.

Your statement is no different than calling the most successful map in the game a failure because LFGs expect a player to be experienced enough know what RIBA means.

Fractals are exactly how raids and strike missions should function. You have easier difficulty lower tier versions of the exact same content you have to do before stepping into the higher. Needing ascended and 150 AR to even do T4's proves you are ready and people don't have to LI/KP lock T4', the game auto does it for you.

The fact you can literally buy the game, boost an 80, then join someone's raid is why there is so much gate keeping in raids. The game needs it's own gate keeping function like fractals to keep completely new players out. A brand new boosted 80 player should NOT be able to freely join any raid or strike mission.

Basically, raids and strike missions need a progressive tier system AND an in game hard gear check you need to first bypass in order to even be able to do the content. Also, add an inspect function so you can see peoples gear and builds or something.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Arcaniaxs.4519" said:Strikes have better loot and they are dailyThis is the problem, IMO. If strikes are to be the steps leading to raiding, then strikes shouldn't have better loot. What's the incentive to raid, then?

I thought it was the "challenge"? or has that always been a lie?

LIke maybe the raidcommunity isn't a monolith who have different reasons/motivations to raid.Who would have thought that

So, it's is the rewards again, right? That much is obvious, of course. When you see it once, you know it's true everywhere and i have seen the same in every game. Not every individual, of course but mostly, yes.

Honestly this post is so full of logical fallacies it made me chuckle. Congrats. :)

The reason why someone plays a piece of content is a mix of past enjoyment (experience the player had with the content), present enjoyement ( gameplay/community), future enjoyment (the rewards/ community/satisfaction of completion).

Which factor is most important at a specific moment is extremely variable, so any claim to boil down the reason why someone plays to 1 thing will be extremely misguided.

You can claim that but every time someone talks about raiding, every raider on one forum or another come to talk about the rewards and how they should get more and/or better. So, how could i know anything different? It's what you all have shown me, the only interest in raids is the stuff. Maybe next time talk about ANYTHING other than rewards, prove me wrong.

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@Cerioth.7062 said:

@Arcaniaxs.4519 said:You my dear friends who complain about these groups... are going to learn strikes so u can go play raids later if u want... soooooooo let the raiders loot peacefully and find a training group for LEARNING.

Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. There are people who have less LI/KP than those requirements and are just as good at it. They don't need to be "learning", they can already do it just fine. So why should those join a "learning group"?

Ppl have less kp? Ok so then they were able to do the content and earn the kp in the psst right? Then surly MOST of them can do it again and get more kps. Btw... as everyone says..."make your own squad"and set a 1kp req for it so u dont get training group and u also wont get ultimate hardcore raiders... u get ppl with 1kp+ dat are also decent or nearly decent :D

Errr... excuse me?!

What I was saying was that you don't have to be a hardcore raider to be a good player and to excel at strike missions. Ergo, saying that
every
player who does not meet the LI/KP requirements is a beginner and therefore should only join "learning groups" is utter, arrogant nonsense.

no no i didnt said ppl with less li should join training groups. I said raiders go for the loot. Non raiders go for learning them. If someone has less kp they can make their own groups with very low li or kp req so they can find groups fasterRemember most commanders have arcdps. U can join a 100-250LI and ask them if they can give u a chance to prove you are good as a dps (or tell them you will do your role decently if u are healer/booner) and most commanders are kind enough to give u a chance or if they didnt...well u can join another group and ask the same. If u are a decent player or u think you are just make your own groups and ask for low li or ask a commander if they can let u in their squad.Btw raiders themselves spend hours and weeks to gain those LIs they have rn.Btw there is alot of groups everywhere for joining. Both with li req and without li reqEven wen i didnt had LIs i could find group ezily. And if u want you can always go raiding and get LIs ezily. 16 bosses are there and they are very very ez

False. Not all raiders go for the loot.

What if i say "most"? Btw there is no actual challenge there why should u go there as a raider then?Maybe to help some non raider friends? Or maybe for achives or the skins of the runic set or the cape

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@Shiyo.3578 said:The fact you can literally buy the game, boost an 80, then join someone's raid is why there is so much gate keeping in raids. The game needs it's own gate keeping function like fractals to keep completely new players out. A brand new boosted 80 player should NOT be able to freely join any raid or strike mission.Why not?Those who want to take the time and effort to hard carry and educate less experienced players are free to do so. Those who wish to set a barrier for entry into the content are also free to do so.One of the biggest problems MMOs face is simply allowing people to play with each other. People get their friends into the game and they can't immediately get their buds in on what they are currently enjoying. Strike missions and a few of the raids are not so hard that players need to be forced to go through a leveling experience for weeks just to hang out with their pals.I decide I want to hard carry some pepegas through Shiverpeaks Pass, I can. You decide you only want people with experience, you can set a requirement on your LFG.If you are looking for a meritocracy you are playing the wrong game.Basically, raids and strike missions need a progressive tier system AND an in game hard gear check you need to first bypass in order to even be able to do the content.No, Strike missions do not.The first three strikes can be completed by the most scuffed group, running crap builds and terrible gear just like t1 fractals. WoJ and Cold War also require only a modicum of smart play (and acceptable damage in WoJ's case) to overcome. You can ego massage all you want about how gatekeeping is needed, but it flies in the face of objective observable reality.There's no gate to keep on Strikes.The only barriers are being set by individual squads in order to play with the people they want to.... nothing wrong with that.The only hard lock is a player's willingness to jump into the content...as it should be.Also, add an inspect function so you can see peoples gear and builds or something.This I agree would be a useful addition to the game. Every MMO on this game's level has a similar feature.

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"Why not"? because that's literally why everyone gate keeps everything? Because a fresh boosted char can apply to a group in their soldier power vit stam exotics and you'll never know? I don't know how else to explain it.

There's nothing stopping you from helping your friends go through the lesser tiers and gear up. You can still play with them, you're just choosing NOT to.

You can't just skip to the final boss in a game, you have to slowly work through the game and learn how to play it before you fight the final boss. Boosting then applying for raids is essentially entering a cheat code and trying to fight the final boss in a game naked with no idea how the game works.

There's such a thing as TOO accessible, and raids and strike missions 100% are. Notice how t4 fractals aren't heavily gate kept by the player base? The game does it for them, that's EXACTLY what raids and fractlals need.

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:"Why not"? because that's literally why everyone gate keeps everything? Because a fresh boosted char can apply to a group in their soldier power vit stam exotics and you'll never know? I don't know how else to explain it.

There's nothing stopping you from helping your friends go through the lesser tiers and gear up. You can still play with them, you're just choosing NOT to.

You can't just skip to the final boss in a game, you have to slowly work through the game and learn how to play it before you fight the final boss. Boosting then applying for raids is essentially entering a cheat code and trying to fight the final boss in a game naked with no idea how the game works.

There's such a thing as TOO accessible, and raids and strike missions 100% are. Notice how t4 fractals aren't heavily gate kept by the player base? The game does it for them, that's EXACTLY what raids and fractlals need.

I don't think fractals are as good an example as you think they are.

There's not a whole lot stopping people from getting to ascended and just buying the AR.

Secondly tiers don't really work. The idea is there but in practice it's not that great. When a fractal is too hard at T4 you're supposed to move down until you get it..but this doesn't happen. You get the same problems around grouping and complaints about difficulty when the answer is right there. People ignore it because they want the rewards and feel entitled to them. There is a reason pretty much all tiers besides T4 are pretty much dead.

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You cannot get 150 AR without infusing your rings which requires doing the fractals, unless you spend thousands of gold on insane infusions. Infusions also cost gold.

Also having ascended gear takes a while(lots of gold, dailies, farming, etc) so by then you at least have some basic understanding of the game, generally. Unlike literally installing the game, using your 80 boost, then pressing LFG and trying to join someone's raid in your soldier exotics with no idea what you're doing.

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