Sniff needs a buff: 20 second cooldown + works on stealthed players

[RangerThings.9810]

I like it.Reset Thieves are out of control since the damage patch -- you can't kill them before they get out of range and reset. At least let us know where they're running to.

[Doug.4930]

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:No.

Sniff is already a wall hack, you don't need to be able to spam it. Yes, high stealth, high evade etc etc thief builds are a problem, but that doesn't mean something else needs to be power creeped, that means these thief builds need to be looked at.

Fair points but the problem is those builds are not a problem outside of keeps. I don't really care if some DE or acro daredevil runs nomad gear in the field. Same reason I don't care about any build that can run away whenever it likes. Its free to run away to its hearts content. I don't think we should nerf class mechanics because of a single very specific issue. Use a scalpel not a bat.

As to those who don't think Sniff is useful, it's used for going into a keep or tower that is contested and Sniffing and seeing where the attackers are without even trying, this makes havoc even harder, which was just about killed with tactics and passives. It's also used by attackers to see if a zerg or scout is inside, it can also be used in zerg battles, like DBL or SMC where there is lots of room and hiding spots to see if a zerg is stacked behind a wall waiting to veil push or portal bomb. I mean "radar" hacking used to be complained about often, then anet went and added it into the game....Now we are wanting it buffed? GG man.

Fair points, I can't really comment on the zergling point of view as I only ever roam. But it would appear all those issues you brought up are already present with a 60 second cooldown. Reducing it to 20 seconds wouldn't really affect those aspects. One sniff is all thats needed to see a zerg stacked/hiding etc. Furthermore during a zerg fight both servers have that many mounted players that a reduced cooldown again wouldn't really be noticeable.

I do see where you're coming from and like I said my zerging experience is basically zero. The only solution to the problems you brought up would be to delete mounts. Which would be a dream come true, but it isn't going to happen I'm afraid.

[Tom.5914]

@Vornollo.5182 said:I'm still of a mind that Mounts shouldn't serve any purpose but Horizontal mobility.As soon as you get in Player Combat, get dismounted.Get rid of the damage on it and get rid of the instant-stomp.At the very, very, very least, make them vulnerable to CC effects.

Mount stomp is the best thing ever against these stupid rezzers or rallybots !

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

@Doug.4930 said:

@"TinkTinkPOOF.9201" said:No.

Sniff is already a wall hack, you don't need to be able to spam it. Yes, high stealth, high evade etc etc thief builds are a problem, but that doesn't mean something else needs to be power creeped, that means these thief builds need to be looked at.

Fair points but the problem is those builds are not a problem outside of keeps. I don't really care if some DE or acro daredevil runs nomad gear in the field. Same reason I don't care about any build that can run away whenever it likes. Its free to run away to its hearts content. I don't think we should nerf class mechanics because of a single very specific issue. Use a scalpel not a bat.

As to those who don't think Sniff is useful, it's used for going into a keep or tower that is contested and Sniffing and seeing where the attackers are without even trying, this makes havoc even harder, which was just about killed with tactics and passives. It's also used by attackers to see if a zerg or scout is inside, it can also be used in zerg battles, like DBL or SMC where there is lots of room and hiding spots to see if a zerg is stacked behind a wall waiting to veil push or portal bomb. I mean "radar" hacking used to be complained about often, then anet went and added it into the game....Now we are wanting it buffed? GG man.

Fair points, I can't really comment on the zergling point of view as I only ever roam. But it would appear all those issues you brought up are already present with a 60 second cooldown. Reducing it to 20 seconds wouldn't really affect those aspects. One sniff is all thats needed to see a zerg stacked/hiding etc. Furthermore during a zerg fight both servers have that many mounted players that a reduced cooldown again wouldn't really be noticeable.

I do see where you're coming from and like I said my zerging experience is basically zero. The only solution to the problems you brought up would be to delete mounts. Which would be a dream come true, but it isn't going to happen I'm afraid.

The builds are a problem outside of keeps as well, no build should have absolute ability to get away. They also don't run away in full, they reset the fight over and over until they catch you off guard or on CD, this is not ok. In a PvP matchup with point holding it's not an issue, but in open world it is. The builds ARE the problem, just because you find it annoying only in once instance does not justify the build existing, nor does it give reason to power creep something else, this is the mind set that got us to the insane power creep we had before, "oh, this is broken, so buff this! Well, now that is broken, so buff that, and this, and that". You yourself are admitting it's an issue, but want to use it as a reason to buff something rather than fix the cause.

Yes, it will impact those fights, as the Sniff only works for a short duration, dropping the CD means it can almost be spammed to keep high up time on monitoring the other side. Situational awareness is a thing that seems to be lost on people, people used to understand where to stand and what to push, but now they don't have to, now you just push a button to be able to see where people are who are not in LoS or even rendered.

[ASP.8093]

"I only ever roam"

"The skill is useless as it stands"

WHAT? You aren't popping it off every time you round a corner into a camp to make sure three people and a ballista aren't parked there desperate to gank you? You aren't hitting it before you Lance-engage to see whether your target has some allies running to their rescue?

[Doug.4930]

@"ASP.8093" said:"I only ever roam"

"The skill is useless as it stands"

WHAT? You aren't popping it off every time you round a corner into a camp to make sure three people and a ballista aren't parked there desperate to gank you? You aren't hitting it before you Lance-engage to see whether your target has some allies running to their rescue?

Perhaps I haven't been using it to its full effectiveness. But truthfully to you all your questions no, I've never really used it like that because I never felt I've needed too. With name tags being so visible and the game being 3rd person I can't say that any non stealthed player or players are ever really able to get the drop on me. Maybe its years playing arma for the past decade maybe had an effect? Regardless I can't say i've fallen for any trap like the one you described, nor do I think I ever would unless I'm watching something on my other monitor and auto running, which I'm sure has happened more than once.

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@Doug.4930 said:

@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:No.

Sniff is already a wall hack, you don't need to be able to spam it. Yes, high stealth, high evade etc etc thief builds are a problem, but that doesn't mean something else needs to be power creeped, that means these thief builds need to be looked at.

Fair points but the problem is those builds are not a problem outside of keeps. I don't really care if some DE or acro daredevil runs nomad gear in the field. Same reason I don't care about any build that can run away whenever it likes. Its free to run away to its hearts content. I don't think we should nerf class mechanics because of a single very specific issue. Use a scalpel not a bat.

As to those who don't think Sniff is useful, it's used for going into a keep or tower that is contested and Sniffing and seeing where the attackers are without even trying, this makes havoc even harder, which was just about killed with tactics and passives. It's also used by attackers to see if a zerg or scout is inside, it can also be used in zerg battles, like DBL or SMC where there is lots of room and hiding spots to see if a zerg is stacked behind a wall waiting to veil push or portal bomb. I mean "radar" hacking used to be complained about often, then anet went and added it into the game....Now we are wanting it buffed? GG man.

Fair points, I can't really comment on the zergling point of view as I only ever roam. But it would appear all those issues you brought up are already present with a 60 second cooldown. Reducing it to 20 seconds wouldn't really affect those aspects. One sniff is all thats needed to see a zerg stacked/hiding etc. Furthermore during a zerg fight both servers have that many mounted players that a reduced cooldown again wouldn't really be noticeable.

I do see where you're coming from and like I said my zerging experience is basically zero. The only solution to the problems you brought up would be to delete mounts. Which would be a dream come true, but it isn't going to happen I'm afraid.

The builds are a problem outside of keeps as well, no build should have absolute ability to get away. They also don't run away in full, they reset the fight over and over until they catch you off guard or on CD, this is not ok. In a PvP matchup with point holding it's not an issue, but in open world it is. The builds ARE the problem, just because you find it annoying only in once instance does not justify the build existing, nor does it give reason to power creep something else, this is the mind set that got us to the insane power creep we had before, "oh, this is broken, so buff this! Well, now that is broken, so buff that, and this, and that". You yourself are admitting it's an issue, but want to use it as a reason to buff something rather than fix the cause.

Yes, it will impact those fights, as the Sniff only works for a short duration, dropping the CD means it can almost be spammed to keep high up time on monitoring the other side. Situational awareness is a thing that seems to be lost on people, people used to understand where to stand and what to push, but now they don't have to, now you just push a button to be able to see where people are who are not in LoS or even rendered.

We can agree to disagree on runaway troll builds. Most classes can spec for disengage these days bar a spare few. I have no problem with them unless they can troll a keep (from the inside). I would prefer it if anet focused on certain condi builds that are mostly unbeatable when played with an ounce of competence.

But rather than debating if the cure is worse than the disease how about making one change that may make everybody happy. Sniff is reduced to 20 seconds like I suggested however It no longer pings enemies who are not stealthed. That is to say, sniffs only purpose is now to ping stealthed players on the mini map. It can't be used to detect zergs hiding around corners, or zergs besieging a tower or scouts or havoc squads lying in wait with bali's etc etc. The only thing It will ping on the map would be players who are currently in stealth.

Would that be an improvement?

[DemonSeed.3528]

What happens to players who play with short duration stealth? Will their dot disappear once they stop stealthing? As for it being used for pinging stealth exclusively, I don't think they will change it to that since the majority of players are not thieves or high stealth so they will probably keep its current functionality.

[Doug.4930]

@DemonSeed.3528 said:What happens to players who play with short duration stealth? Will their dot disappear once they stop stealthing?

The ping doesn't follow players like marked does. Its a single stationary flash ping. So all it would do is mark on the map where the stealthed player was at the moment sniffed was pressed.

As for it being used for pinging stealth exclusively, I don't think they will change it to that since the majority of players are not thieves or high stealth so they will probably keep its current functionality.

Thats the point though, if sniff is already unpopular amongst players because its a crutch mechanic used to show the enemy who are not within LOS, then change it so that it will no longer impact the majority of players and is only a tool in which to track down sneaky players.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Doug.4930 said:Thats the point though, if sniff is already unpopular amongst players because its a crutch mechanic used to show the enemy who are not within LOS, then change it so that it will no longer impact the majority of players and is only a tool in which to track down sneaky players.

I'm not going to defend GW2's iteration of stealth, but at the same, I won't support the notion that a mechanic many builds specifically trait into, can be negated by a player pushing their 2 key which has no cost, risk, or drawback.

If a Rev or Engy (running Goggles) wants to run around trying to detect a stealthed player and succeeds, there was some effort/sacrifice involved, so that's fine by me.

[Teratus.2859]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:If a Rev or Engy (running Goggles) wants to run around trying to detect a stealthed player and succeeds, there was some effort/sacrifice involved, so that's fine by me.

Problem is not all classes can do this.

To use Ranger as an example.. Sic Em is the only skill they have that can reveal an enemy.. and it cannot be used without a valid target, so to reveal a thief you have to first be able to see the thief.. aka not in stealth.

So Sic Em isn't actually a reveal skill at all, it's a stealth prevention skill which can be compeltely negated by Deadeyes since they can remove reveal and stealth themselves anyway giving most classes utterly no defense against these annoying stealth troll builds.This is why thiefs being able to run and reset encounters then re-engage instantly is a problem and extremely cheap behaviour that justifies so much thief hate as a result.

Sniff at least getting the ability to show stealthed players on the map wouldn't be a bad thing.But reducing the CD would be, I don't agree with that change, as I said in my last post I would rather have the marked map icons appear for longer instead.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:If a Rev or Engy (running Goggles) wants to run around trying to detect a stealthed player and succeeds, there was some effort/sacrifice involved, so that's fine by me.

Problem is not all classes can do this.

To use Ranger as an example.. Sic Em is the only skill they have that can reveal an enemy.. and it cannot be used without a valid target, so to reveal a thief you have to first be able to see the thief.. aka not in stealth.

So Sic Em isn't actually a reveal skill at all, it's a stealth prevention skill which can be compeltely negated by Deadeyes since they can remove reveal and stealth themselves anyway giving most classes utterly no defense against these annoying stealth troll builds.This is why thiefs being able to run and reset encounters then re-engage instantly is a problem and extremely cheap behaviour that justifies so much thief hate as a result.

Sniff at least getting the ability to show stealthed players on the map wouldn't be a bad thing.But reducing the CD would be, I don't agree with that change, as I said in my last post I would rather have the marked map icons appear for longer instead.

I'm not debating the efficacy of reveal skills, or if there are enough of them (hint: they suck, and there aren't) as it pertains to stealth in general. I'm simply saying that having a player, dismounted, running around and activating utilities is least giving up something to find and reveal a stealthed player - some efforts is involved. Same is true with dropping traps, etc.

Having 50 people on discord where, in sequence, they press their #2 key and call out a stealthed players position is not a positive move for the game.

I'm not defending stealth or the Teef class, and I'm onboard with removing perma-stealth from the game, but at the same time I'm saying that the Warclaw sniff ability is already useful, and giving players the ability to negate a profession mechanic, again with no cost, risk or drawback, is simply too much.

Someone correct me here, but I've been under the belief that sniff will still emit the 'ping' warning on a stealth player, but won't reveal their presence on the map. So sniff can still be used to detect the presence of a stealthed player within range, it just won't display their location on the map. For me, that's sufficient.

Oh, and nerf stealth. Kthxbye.

[Caedmon.6798]

Learn to lay down stealthtraps with your 10 people. You have the tools available and with a little bit of communication there can be traps allover that tower he's in. But no,with radars that reveal ,sentry's that reveal and 2 types of stealth denial traps + class specific reveals its Still not enough. What an absolute joke. And all of you run in your semi-blob with your guards sustaining your ass while that stealthed guy is alone outplaying you and youre mad you can't catch him because you dont use that big brain of yours,yet you still want him nerfed. How casual do you want this game mode to become ?

Let's put Npc's in towers that insta kill stealthed players,Yes!!!

[Aeolus.3615]

@ArchonWing.9480 said:There's way enough mount campers as it is, that it'd basically make stealth useless. And not just thieves use stealth.

I would just like it if sniff showed the enemy dots to all allies in the area. That would actually be useful.

Maybe could tell if there was some one stealthed with a diferent sound or something evry 120sec rather the 60sec, this couldbe added on a trait, but would just sound diferent(like a growl sound from the mount?) if there was a stealthed player in 1200-1500 range, still would not show off the dot .

A snif that can only sniff what eyes can see :) F* logic, at leat let make it work more like a sniff????