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The biggest barrier to raids


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Because, out of all the active players:
  • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
  • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
  • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
  • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of hardcore players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.Like i said, been there, done that.

PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Because, out of all the active players:
  • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
  • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
  • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
  • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of
hardcore
players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.Like i said, been there, done that.

PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

I have the exact opposite experience of close-knit guild communities that barely had many hardcore players that started raiding and found enjoyment in it. Including players that never even run Fractals and barely run Dungeons before starting to Raid as a group. But that requires actual feelings of community and friendship between guild members and not be total strangers that just happen to share a chat room. Because a true supporting community will both have players that help others get better, and those others try more to become better. If this community is full of selfish and arrogant players then it will simply fail.

And then when the game stopped offering content for said guilds to do together, they also turned into chat rooms because there was barely anything to do together anymore. Even worse when we found out about Discord, as now we simply talk on Discord instead of logging to chat in-game, why idle in LA or do some mindless farm while chatting in-game, when you can chat on Discord while you do something actually fun and engaging?

Been there done that.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Because, out of all the active players:
  • half or more would not be interested in the content at all
  • many of the remaining ones interested in the content would not be skilled enough to run it
  • of those, many would not be interested in putting a lot of effort into learning.
  • teaching the unskilled that are still interested in learning would take time

There are easy Raids and even Strike Missions to bridge the gap there is no need to start from the hardest Raids directly. Furthermore, since Strike Missions are new and more are added on a regular basis, veteran/experienced players would want to run them anyway. In some time the guild can get at least 10 players together to start their instanced content experience and eventually get into Raids.

It's not like a group of 10 players that have played together for months or even years can't go and start raiding by themselves and in that case all your listed drawbacks go away. But yes all those apply for the impatient and those in guilds that do not have tight communities that can try things together, as a guild.

All that happened even in guilds with very tight and old commmunities. In fact, it was even more likely to happen for those. More loose guilds are generally built around the content they play, so the issues like this just do not happen that often. It's the close-knit communities that are build not around the types of content but around personal relations between players, and feelings of community and friendship. And it's exactly those guilds that ended up in the worst situation. Unless, of course, they accidentally already had enough of
hardcore
players to help others out. But, suprise surprise, GW2 being what it is, hardcore players weren't all that common, and it was completely not surprising to see a guild of active 50-100 players to have only 2-3 hardcores. And more often than not, those 2-3 people simply were not enough to jumpstart a guild raid group fast enough.Like i said, been there, done that.

PS: any time where the game creates a case where game goals and community/friendship bonds conflict, it always ends ugly. It's practically a lose/lose situation. No matter what happens, it won't end well.

My guild is a tight-knit community of mostly casuals. Majority of them are not in t4 fractals and have just been learning strikes. We all do raid training and try to clear them together and have a huge blast. Some come there with less optimal builds and our comps arent meta, but we always manage to improve, and people have gotten into gearing up their characters and making new builds to help out more.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:It's amazing how hard people will argue that these good raiding communities don't exist in any reasonable level that they are accessible to the 'regular' player to push their agenda.Maybe the difference lies in the differences of what the term "reasonable level" means for you and for them.

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At the end of the day raid's in THIS game were a pointless endeavor. The proof is in the lack of resources, the disbanding of the raid dev team and our own internal analysis. They are hardcore about LW so they really should have doubled down and put more effort into framing that as the next evolution of MMO's. Its all about the sell. Each raid could have been a LW release (minus a few raid mechanics) and the entire community would be playing/experiencing that content continuously since then. Its beyond a missed opportunity. ARENANET really needs to work on the vision of their game.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:It's amazing how hard people will argue that these good raiding communities don't exist in any reasonable level that they are accessible to the 'regular' player to push their agenda.Maybe the difference lies in the differences of what the term "reasonable level" means for you and for them.

No doubt ... I'm of the opinion that if people can't find enough people to raid with, the expectations are too high, the criteria too restrictive, or the effort to find them too low. Exclusive behaviours in an MMO are a self-extinction mechanic after all.

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Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

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@HotDelirium.7984 said:At the end of the day raid's in THIS game were a pointless endeavor. The proof is in the lack of resources, the disbanding of the raid dev team and our own internal analysis. They are hardcore about LW so they really should have doubled down and put more effort into framing that as the next evolution of MMO's. Its all about the sell.

What indeed was a terrible idea was shifting so many resources into other game projects which all failed, not leaving enough resources to properly support all avenues of GW2, from LW to WvW to PvP to Fractals and Raids, and then after massive layoffs shifting all remaining resources into the lowest common denominator, that being LW, since when the game is doing fairly badly financially.

@HotDelirium.7984 said:Each raid could have been a LW release (minus a few raid mechanics) and the entire community would be playing/experiencing that content continuously since then. Its beyond a missed opportunity. ARENANET really needs to work on the vision of their game.

No, a large part of the community would have left since then, as it's doing since a year now with that being the case.

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@"A R W E N.6895" said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"A R W E N.6895" said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

You are missing my point. I'm not talking about accessibility in term of the skill level or the challenge (That is not the problem I am point since the beginning of my post). It's about getting the players. Sure, you can get on a discord for raids (Raid Academy, etc), but that does not change the fact that getting into a raid will be faster. Yes it does make it easier, but not faster.

This is a huge deterrent to every single people that had a discussion with me in game regarding the # of players. Seems like on the forum I get the complete opposite!

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@A R W E N.6895 said:

@A R W E N.6895 said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

That's why the common recommendation is to join a guild or training discord, where both the time issue is managed and the players interested are funneled for the desired content. Yes, the in-game LFG is not good for this by simple reason of declining players due to lack of new content in this area. There is no waiting for players to the extent you are mentioning when you have organized guild raid times.

Sorry but raids where never advertised as accessible for everyone at every point in time when ever they want. It was and is meant to be the most challenging content in this game for originally organized groups of players. The fact players have gotten good enough to PUG this content does not mean this is the best way to access it.

As far as what the definition of reasonable might be? It's actually as little as joining or finding a guild which does raids and raid trainings. I see raids and taking new players regularly mentioned in guild advertisements in game. The very sub-forum here has current and regular guilds looking for new players. All it takes is keeping your eyes open and joining such a guild. This might be a tad tougher on NA versus EU since the NA raiding scene has taken a far heavier hit than the EU one.

You are missing my point. I'm not talking about accessibility in term of the skill level or the challenge (That is not the problem I am point since the beginning of my post). It's about getting the players. Sure, you can get on a discord for raids (Raid Academy, etc), but that does not change the fact that getting into a raid will be faster. Yes it does make it easier, but not faster.

No, I am saying that joining a guild which does raids on a regular basis, or a discord will cut down the time it takes to organize 10 players. At worst you might have to fill up a few remaining spots as a guild IF not all members have time. Or the opposite worst case you have to MANY players and not everyone can join for a run.

This is NOT about difficulty. It literally is about organizing players. The fact that this is more efficient and productive as far as progressing and learning raids is just an added bonus.

@A R W E N.6895 said:This is a huge deterrent to every single people that had a discussion with me in game regarding the # of players. Seems like on the forum I get the complete opposite!

and who have you been talking to exactly? Players who raid regularly, or those who do not? Might want to consider who you are getting your info from. Yes, players who are not raiding and try to make a 10 people party from scratch WILL face issues, especially when they are clueless where to best recruit players (or how). Then again, there are guilds even now that start from scratch and progress through all the raids. I got to know one 3 months back and they were on their way to clear W1-4 and far behind the casual guild I am in (not counting my raid static guild which is very advanced).

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@"A R W E N.6895" said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"A R W E N.6895" said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.See my sig for what i think about how reasonable it is.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"A R W E N.6895" said:Tell me what would your definition of "reasonable" be with respect to the reason why I started this post. I'm simply curious since sometime I completely agree with what you are writing and sometime it's the total opposite. (FYI : I had a discussion with a friend of mine who literally told me that what is pushing him away from raids is that he can't afford waiting to get a 10 member party with the limited time he has to play during the week). And on the contrary, there is me, I do have plenty of time to actually wait and find a group and then starting a raid. However, it is not normal that the waiting for a group takes sometime 10x more time than it requires to kill the actual boss. Something somewhere regarding forming party is not right (IMO).

Reasonable ... willingness to find one of the many guilds dedicated to raiding filled with people who want to raid and organize raids.See my sig for what i think about how reasonable it is.

Cool ... I don't get your point. Are you trying to say that you are 'forced' into playing with people if you follow my definition of what is reasonable? That's a "you" issue then.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

I can.

When I played World of Warcraft our guild had a death knight who seemed to spend most of each encounter dead. She contributed pretty much nothing except scaling the fight hp higher.

In Final Fantasy 14 in some encounters people can not only contribute very little, but can instead wipe a group within the first couple of minutes.

The gap between the best and worst players in every MMO is pretty much completely unrelated to builds, but more to do with how much a single person can screw over everyone else on mechanics, the worst player would find a way to significantly underperform in a one button completely buildless game.

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@Eponet.4829 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:This is actually a big issue here. GW2s mechanics ans combat system, as unique and great it may be with lack of traditional trinity and build freedom and everything, leads to an insane performance gap between players.

I can't recall a single MMORPG I have played where player performance was this spread appart.

I can.

When I played World of Warcraft our guild had a death knight who seemed to spend most of each encounter dead. She contributed pretty much nothing except scaling the fight hp higher.

In Final Fantasy 14 in some encounters people can not only contribute very little, but can instead wipe a group within the first couple of minutes.

The gap between the best and worst players in every MMO is pretty much completely unrelated to builds, but more to do with how much a single person can screw over everyone else on mechanics, the worst player would find a way to significantly underperform in a one button completely buildless game.Performance gap and being clueless about fight mechanics are completely separate things. In most MMOs being clueless about encounter can lead to wipe. In GW2, you need to deal with that
in addition
to a performance gap that is much wider than in other games.

That final fantasy 14 example? That person that's contributing little, while being way below average player as far as FF XIV is concerned, is likely still doing a greater percentage of expected dps than an average casual in GW2. And an average casual in FFXIV will do a quarter to half of the damage of the more experienced players, not one-tenth like here.

It's not the gap between the best and the worst player that is a problem. It's the gap between the best and the average that is an issue.

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Just ignore the troll. If you do not engage, they will go back to their bridge. Again remember there are two groups of players, those who run meta builds and know their rotations, about 5% of the player base, which does 10 times the dps of the other 95%. I would estimate 50% of players think they are the 5%, which means they think their opinions matter and are good ideas.

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@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Just ignore the troll. If you do not engage, they will go back to their bridge. Again remember there are two groups of players, those who run meta builds and know their rotations, about 5% of the player base, which does 10 times the dps of the other 95%. I would estimate 50% of players think they are the 5%, which means they think their opinions matter and are good ideas.

Where do you get your numbers from?Not being offensive rn i just want to know if there is a way to know how many players actually do raids

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Performance gap and being clueless about fight mechanics are completely separate things. In most MMOs being clueless about encounter can lead to wipe. In GW2, you need to deal with that in addition to a performance gap that is much wider than in other games.

That final fantasy 14 example? That person that's contributing little, while being way below average player as far as FF XIV is concerned, is likely still doing a greater percentage of expected dps than an average casual in GW2. And an average casual in FFXIV will do a quarter to half of the damage of the more experienced players, not one-tenth like here.

It's not the gap between the best and the worst player that is a problem. It's the gap between the best and the average that is an issue.

Since I've never played FFXIV do you have any kind of data to back that up? Not disputing that there is such a difference between the two games, just interested in where the comparison is coming from. Second, given how the damage difference between good dps (not top, but still more than enough to beat any content) and someone just using auto-attack is very small it must be that those bringing such low damage numbers are doing something wrong. It's not about following rotations either, because simply auto-attacking doesn't require rotations, this leads me to believe that the reason the gap is large in GW2 is due to extreme laziness and has very little (if anything at all) to do with skill.

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It's the whole package. Rotations is only the last step.FF XIV does not let you select your build. Traits unlock automatically as you level up. Most skills unlock automatically as you level up, and the rest you obtain progressing through the class storyline.FF XIV does not let you selest your gear statset. Each class gets their own stat sets, and, while there's sometimes some choice between picking the same ilevel stat set with different secondary stat set choices, the end difference between those choices is relatively minimal, within1-2 % or something. You can finish customizing the set with materia (which most casual players don't do, or do it in non-optimal way), but that's also maybe around 1% difference. In the end it's not surprising to see a difference between optimized and non-optimized gear within the same ilevel to be in total, when counting both those things still below 1%Even getting the savage raid gear (which at the moment the raid releases is an upgrade over what casuals can get) still offers only very minimal advantage over the more common gear everyone else uses.So in the end the difference is limited only to rotation and doing mechanics. Your autoattack example above? That's exactly this - a difference of only rotation and doing mechanics (because you already assume there the person has a proper gear and build).Notice, that even with rotation FF XIV is a bit easier than gw2, by the way. That's due to two things: first, there's no "hidden" skills whose cooldown you need to track in your mind. Second, most skills are under a global cooldown mechanic. A lot of gw2 rotations suffer from being very dependant on how fast and precise you can be with skill activation. Global cooldown in FF XIV removes a lot of that issue. Also, attack chains are done differently, and it's way easier to see when you're about to cancel the last (and most damaging) skill in the chain than it is in GW2.I'd also say that FF XIV is better when it comes to clearly marking mechanics (and to teaching those mechanics to people that go through the story), but that may just be me.Oh, and also, while people do use to stack usually as well, it's mostly for heals, and some classes especilly are widely known (and memed) for staying away from it. That's because the buffs are not as important part of dps as in GW2 (they are also not so limited in range).

Edit: there's an example:https://imgur.com/fZ6FKUwThat's a log from level 80 raid i managed to find that illustrates the situation. Notice, that's the "normal" raid, meaning it's the one meant for casuals, it's not the "savage" version. It's also from previous patch, meaning at this point it's several months old (and it's also the first encounter of the last set of four). Which means that practically anyone that managed to get to level 80 would be doing it. That also means that, yes, you can use the logs to see how it works for the whole population, because, unlike with gw2Raidar for example, there's only very small selection bias here. The pre-selection bias here being that logs are made of only succesful attempts. But then, on this encounter most attempts are succesful by now.

From top you have: Ninja, Dancer, Red Mage, Gunbreaker (tank), Scholar (healer), Machinist, Paladin (tank), White Mage (healer). The percentage numbers on the left are the percentage ratings of your dps within your class (the higher the better). So, the top dps is at 92% of all Ninjas (so, very high, with the dps differences at the top being relatively small, the smaller the higher you get). The third dps is only at 27% of all Red Mages (this is low, as you can guess - additionally Red Mages are, in general, one of the lower dps classes). The fourth dps (the sixth person in the table, below one tank and one healer), is at only 7% within his class (which dps wise is also somewhere near the bottom of the classes). I think i don't need to tell you that 7% is very, very bad.The top dps in gw2 would be definitely solid raid tier. The Red Mage and Machinist would not qualify (with the Machinist being at the very bottom of the barrel even in the casual crowd). And yet, as you can see, the Red Mage does as much as half as the top player's dps, while the Machinist does a third of it.

Notice that if you added players that don't qualify for the encounter, the results would not be much different. Or rather, would be, but only because the worse players would spend most of their time during encounter dead. The machinist dps you can see in this logs is literally something you can achieve by using skills at random, it's really hard to get any lower as long as you do press something.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:So in the end the difference is limited only to rotation and doing mechanics. Your autoattack example above? That's exactly this - a difference of only rotation and doing mechanics (because you already assume there the person has a proper gear and build).

I guess that's the first step, the game telling players if they have "proper gear and build", FFXIV does this, GW2 doesn't. The simplest way to do this (without changing how gear acquisition works which would be a massive undertaking) is to add something that can "show" how good your gear is, as a tiny first step showing (instead of AP while in an instance) your Power, since Power is the stat that affects DPS the most.

Notice, that even with rotation FF XIV is a bit easier than gw2, by the way. That's due to two things: first, there's no "hidden" skills whose cooldown you need to track in your mind. Second, most skills are under a global cooldown mechanic.

The first problem can be solved, somewhat. Like this: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/81506/suggestion-showing-cooldowns-of-skills-not-currently-availableThe second one is very hard to "solve" as it's at the very core of the game, although adding a tiny global cooldown so 99% of the players don't even notice it exists, wouldn't really hurt the game.

The top dps in gw2 would be definitely solid raid tier.

Given how groups in GW2 succeed in Raids with their players being at around 50%, or even lower, from the global top, then it's not important at all to use players that are in any way close to the top 90%.

The Red Mage and Machinist would not qualify (with the Machinist being at the very bottom of the barrel even in the casual crowd). And yet, as you can see, the Red Mage does as much as half as the top player's dps, while the Machinist does a third of it.

Well since gw2raidar is now dead I had to search a bit harder to find any relevant information. However judging by my group's logs (all those that succeeded) we were above 30% and below 50% of the global total on gw2raidar. This means high percentages aren't really required to succeed in Raids, depending on your average, we had players reaching as high as 70% or 80% so you can understand that since the group's total was under 50% and above 30% (gw2raidar didn't track 40%) that we had a great variety in DPS in the group and probably had someone at 7% of the global a lot of the time.

This is from Twin Largos about a year ago (May 2019):according to gw2raidar 15,886 is the lowest tier (30%) average dps and 26,144 is the 99% percentile, meaning the difference between top and bottom (success) is very similar to the difference between the Ninja and the Red Mage. 19373 is at 70%

GW2: 26144 = 99%, 15886 = 30%FFXIV: 6.68m = 92%, 3.92m = 27%

At least when comparing the boss you posted with Twin Largos. Btw, it's probably the Mirage stats

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I did specifically mention Raidar when i was talking about selection bias. The difference is that Raidar is for raid content, and so generally only a small part of the game population ever gets logged (and, obviously, it's heavily skewed towards the top). On the other hand the encounter i brought up, while it's called a "raid", is a casual content meant for everyone and being done by everyone (the "normal" difficulty is the easy mode. The "savage" version would be the normal raid tier). It's comparable to doing logs in gw2 not off Twin Largos, but off a world boss.

The "30%" in Raidar is still several times higher than gw2 average. (the "average", the real 50%, is the level the devs said is 10x lower than the top). But 7% on fflogs is indeed very close to bottom 7% among the whole level 80 players of that class. You need to understand that difference.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:The "30%" in Raidar is still several times higher than gw2 average. (the "average", the real 50%, is the level the devs said is 10x lower than the top). But 7% on fflogs is indeed very close to bottom 7% among the whole level 80 players of that class. You need to understand that difference.

I already talked about that, the "gw2 average" and how a player using only auto-attacks in a Raid encounter will out-dps this so called "gw2 average". The gw2 average is obviously very low but that's thanks to laziness. I mean come on it's not like you need to bring your 30% when fighting the Shadow Behemoth, just stand back and auto-attack it or watch something on your second monitor or whatever. This is why that developer comment about the average being 10x lower than the top is a rather useless bit of information, it doesn't take into account skill, or even gear, since neither of those is responsible for such a massive reduction in damage numbers. Laziness and boredom are

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