The biggest barrier to raids

[Astralporing.1957]

laziness and boredom are not unique to gw2. If they were the main reason for low dps numbers, you would see the same level of discrepancies in other games as well. And yet somehow you don't.

The 7% player in my example is the equivalent of someone at the bottom of a world boss dps list.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:laziness and boredom are not unique to gw2. If they were the main reason for low dps numbers, you would see the same level of discrepancies in other games as well. And yet somehow you don't.

The 7% player in my example is the equivalent of someone at the bottom of a world boss dps list.

I thought your FFXIV example was from an instance? It's much harder to fall asleep while participating in content when inside an instance with a limited number of players, compared to an open world where you can do your DPS in the first few minutes and go afk till the next burn phase. And if you die, no problem use a waypoint and go back, meanwhile if you die in an instance you either wait for a revive (if the game allows it) or you simply stay there dead, contributing nothing to the encounter. And if the group isn't good enough to low-man the content they will fail, in the open world that's rarely the case.

As for the rest of laziness and boredom, take a look at Auric Basin during the Octovine. Count how many players are on each side, you will notice that East gets the vast majority of players, while West gets very few, in the past West even had TOO few players, while East was overcrowded with entire squads waiting there. This type of design that allows players that do nothing to get the same reward as players that do all the difficult parts of a fight is what creates this type of player in GW2 that doesn't really care about performance. Look at Chakk Gerent and count how many are on each side. Or something much simpler, how many players MOVE to destroy the portals that heal the Shadow Behemoth...

As I said I haven't played FFXIV, but your example was from an instance where such behavior is much harder to perform. Now if the above "GW2 open world" behavior exists in FFXIV instances then I guess you have a point there and FFXIV is a weird designed game.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:laziness and boredom are not unique to gw2. If they were the main reason for low dps numbers, you would see the same level of discrepancies in other games as well. And yet somehow you don't.

The 7% player in my example

is

the equivalent of someone at the bottom of a world boss dps list.

I thought your FFXIV example was from an instance?Instances are something very different in FF XIV than in GW2. FF XIV is mostly about instanced content, open world exists, but ist practically irrelevant. It's the instances where players go and spend their time in this game. In GW2 it's very different - instances are something a large part of the game population does not even participate in.But, if you want a better comparison, use GW2 dungeons. With "everyone invited" LFG. Noticing, that even gw2 dungeons (the easy ones). are far more biased as far as participants are concerned than FF XIV normal mode raids

But if you want a true world boss comparison, i will try to find a log from a 24-man instance. That would be very much the same type of behaviour.

Anyway, the core of the issue with you bringing up raidar is that raidar covers maybe top 20% of the gw2 population, while fflogs cover top 90-95% of FF XIV one.

Edit: here you are. a log from the last boss of Copied Factory, the last 24-man instance:https://imgur.com/GDYHHUCNotice, that you have a ton of gray parses here, but also one of the very, very rare pink 99% ones. As such, it is a very good comparison.(the 98% orange player is a healer, btw)

Notice that 8 bottom spots are occupied by 6 healers, one tank, and a Limit Break mechanic that is listed separately from the players. The lowest dps is 9th position from the bottom, the dancer listed at 9% within class, with a dps sligtly lower than a third of the dps of the top spot, 99% tier red mage player.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Anyway, the core of the issue with you bringing up raidar is that raidar covers maybe top 20% of the gw2 population, while fflogs cover top 90-95% of FF XIV one.

And the core issue with not including only raidar is that in the open world there are many external factors, outside skill or gear, that can affect performance. Other than what I said above about the design of encounters in the open world not promoting performance at all, you need to also keep in mind that in the open world, even in world bosses, you won't have access to all buffs. You won't have spirits, banners, might, quickness and alacrity, something you will most definitely have if you are in an instanced group. And buffs in GW2 do triple the damage output, or at least the old Chrono+Druid+Warrior buffs did. So again, the whole argument of top players doing 10x more damage than the average is very weak, same with comparing instanced and open world damage in general.

[Astralporing.1957]

The 24-man instance example i mentioned above is very, very much like OW bosses of gw2 in terms of how many players tend to play there. You are still free to ignore is at well if it does not fit your preconceptions (although you are one of the very few posters i would not have expected to act that way).

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:The 24-man instance example i mentioned above is very, very much like OW bosses of gw2 in terms of how many players tend to play there. You are still free to ignore is at well if it does not fit your preconceptions (although you are one of the very few posters i would not have expected to act that way).

The lowest is 290k, the top is 8.4m that's quite a difference. Yes you said those at the bottom are healers, but in that way you are assuming everyone in an open world GW2 event is a "DPS"

[Astralporing.1957]

There's a very big separation of the roles in FF XIV. All healers are expected to be on the bottom, then tanks, then dps. That person at the bottom is at 3% among his class, by the way. So, it's at the very bottom in dps in a class that's at the very bottom (notice that even among healer class there's a distinction - scholars and astrologers do significantly less dps than white mages. rank 1 ["100%"] scholar in that encounter logged around 7400 dps - around 1k less than the 98% white mage in this log). That player has also been dead or afk for over half of the encounter (see the "active" column, with the caveat that the top active here is around 75%, not 100%, due to invuln phases of the boss)

If you want to compare like that, you might as well start comparing top tier gw2 dps with magi tempest auramancer. that's dead half of the time.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If you want to compare like that, you might as well start comparing top tier gw2 dps with magi tempest auramancer. that's dead half of the time.

This is true and another reason why I don't like the whole argument (especially coming from a developer) of "top players are doing 10x more damage than the average", that average does include magi tempest auramancers that are dead half of the time

[Cyndercat.7615]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If you want to compare like that, you might as well start comparing top tier gw2 dps with magi tempest auramancer. that's dead half of the time.

This is true and another reason why I don't like the whole argument (especially coming from a developer) of "top players are doing 10x more damage than the average", that average does include magi tempest auramancers that are dead half of the time

Average DPS in open world does about 3k though. Run a DPS meter for a day and you can see it clearly. In general you will have 4-5 people in a squad of 50 doing 25k, 10-15 doing 10-20k and the rest hovering between 3-6k max dps.

[Astralporing.1957]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:Average DPS in open world does about 3k though. Run a DPS meter for a day and you can see it clearly. In general you will have 4-5 people in a squad of 50 doing 25k, 10-15 doing 10-20k and the rest hovering between 3-6k max dps.From my observations it's more like 1-2 with above 20k, 2-3 inbetween 10-20, another 5 with above 6k, and the rest below (i guess i run in more casual squads). But yeah, that.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If you want to compare like that, you might as well start comparing top tier gw2 dps with magi tempest auramancer. that's dead half of the time.

This is true and another reason why I don't like the whole argument (especially coming from a developer) of "top players are doing 10x more damage than the average", that average does include magi tempest auramancers that are dead half of the timeNo, it does not. Sure, when considering average, the builds like that are obviously included, but they do not end up among the average, but near the bottom. The average player hovers around the 3k-4k range. In fact, most GW2 players seem to sit safely in this range.

[maddoctor.2738]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If you want to compare like that, you might as well start comparing top tier gw2 dps with magi tempest auramancer. that's dead half of the time.

This is true and another reason why I don't like the whole argument (especially coming from a developer) of "top players are doing 10x more damage than the average", that average does include magi tempest auramancers that are dead half of the time

Average DPS in open world does about 3k though. Run a DPS meter for a day and you can see it clearly. In general you will have 4-5 people in a squad of 50 doing 25k, 10-15 doing 10-20k and the rest hovering between 3-6k max dps.

Which doesn't say if it's because of their build, their skill level or their choice of gear, or the load of other external reasons that leads to such a low dps. The argument isn't that player dps in GW2 is so varied, it's the reason for it to be so varied (as a barrier for Raids)

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, it does not. Sure, when considering average, the builds like that are obviously included, but they do not end up among the average, but near the bottom. The average player hovers around the 3k-4k range. In fact, most GW2 players seem to sit safely in this range.

That really depends on how many of the total number of players runs those kinds of builds, that's how averaging works.If the majority of the players is running "support-like" builds or are spending most of their time in the encounter dead or play while semi-afk, then the average will be negatively affected by them. If the average player hovers around 3k-4k, which is rather easily achievable by simply auto-attacking, then there must be something else going on with that "average player" other than blaming their build, gear or skill level.

[Astralporing.1957]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:No, it does not. Sure, when considering average, the builds like that are obviously included, but they do not end up among the average, but near the bottom. The average player hovers around the 3k-4k range. In fact, most GW2 players seem to sit safely in this range.

That really depends on how many of the total number of players runs those kinds of builds, that's how averaging works.If the majority of the players is running "support-like" builds or are spending most of their time in the encounter dead or play while semi-afk, then the average will be negatively affected by them. If the average player hovers around 3k-4k,

which is rather easily achievable by simply auto-attacking

, then there must be something else going on with that "average player" other than blaming their build, gear or skill level.You are already making some assumptions about their build and gear here.

[A R W E N.6895]

I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the damn raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" bullshit. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

[Cerioth.7062]

@"A R W E N.6895" said:I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the kitten raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" kitten. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

...Why is joining a guild not an option? What is the part that is so bad or difficult about joining a raiding community? It would solve all your problems.

[pninak.1069]

it's the mind. I don't like playing the game as much anymore and I am too lazy to force myself to play with players who don't want me around. I believe there should be players teaching. It is a big part of gw1. in gw2 it seems to be lost however. I know I'd have to learn the bosses patterns and mechanics. I also believe you should be able to do it without priority of faster cleartime taking over. If you explain everything well enough and know how to evade attacks and patterns the time isn't an issue. tbh the cleartime you expect gives me reason to doubt the difficulty of raids, because look at dungeons. you can clear paths in a half hour and there you still had people asking for requirements that shouldn't eb the norm. like ascalon catacombs with 80s only thus preventing lvl 40s to even play it.

[Cyninja.2954]

@"A R W E N.6895" said:I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the kitten raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" kitten. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard. Why? Because all the people who are seriously interested in this content ARE IN A GUILD. You willfully ignoring THE best solution to your perceived problem is on you. Feel free to not follow said advice. We look forward to hearing from you again in years to come about how the main issue is finding 10 players. You'll be one of those "I know about raids and their problems without ever having actually played the content" people who liter these forums.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.And yet that's one of the main issues behind low raid popularity. Most people simply do not want to organize their life to that degree around a mere game activity.

[A R W E N.6895]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"A R W E N.6895" said:I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the kitten raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" kitten. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard. Why? Because all the people who are seriously interested in this content ARE IN A GUILD. You willfully ignoring THE best solution to your perceived problem is on you. Feel free to not follow said advice. We look forward to hearing from you again in years to come about how the main issue is finding 10 players. You'll be one of those "I know about raids and their problems without ever having actually played the content" people who liter these forums.

Here is the first post : "Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid."

Is this my reality? Maybe. However, your proposed solution does not solve the issue I'm pointing with this post. It almost feels like no one is willing to actually get deeper into that statement of mine. Sure, let's find a raiding guild, and then find a static group and bla bla bla, but how much time does that really take? Where is your guarantee that you will have the 10 required players for said raid.

I will keep repeating that same statement because it seems like some people are completely blind to the real issue I'm trying to point."Hint #1 : What makes raid difficult is getting 10 players""Hint #2 : The solution is not the current guild system"

[Cyninja.2954]

@A R W E N.6895 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@A R W E N.6895 said:I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the kitten raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" kitten. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard. Why? Because all the people who are seriously interested in this content ARE IN A GUILD. You willfully ignoring THE best solution to your perceived problem is on you. Feel free to not follow said advice. We look forward to hearing from you again in years to come about how the main issue is finding 10 players. You'll be one of those "I know about raids and their problems without ever having actually played the content" people who liter these forums.

Here is the first post : "Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid."

Is this my reality? Maybe. However, your proposed solution does not solve the issue I'm pointing with this post. It almost feels like no one is willing to actually get deeper into that statement of mine. Sure, let's find a raiding guild, and then find a static group and bla bla bla, but how much time does that really take? Where is your guarantee that you will have the 10 required players for said raid.

Given how I raid between 2 and 4 times per week with different people, and we have not had to cancel any set raid in months, chance are pretty high that success will occur. That's a subjective example.

My proposed solution is LITERALLY the solution to your issue.

@A R W E N.6895 said:I will keep repeating that same statement because it seems like some people are completely blind to the real issue I'm trying to point."Hint #1 : What makes raid difficult is getting 10 players""Hint #2 : The solution is not the current guild system"

No, what you are repeating on a loop is the same nonsense without realizing that the solution to organizing 10 players is just that: organization. Which in this case comes in funneling and gathering like minded individuals. Which in turn happens in guilds and discords. That's literally the solution which you have in no way disproved that it does not work, since you have no experience in actually organizing raid content.

The reason why players have an issue here is because they are like you:Unwilling to approach this issue with the correct solution in place. Investing resources and effort into the incorrect approach and running into the LFG head first over and over, then coming here and complaining that getting into raids is hard. It's not IF you join a guild or training discord.

Now as to WHY some players decide not to join either, there are a multitude of reasons for that, many of which are also absolutely unrelated to difficulty.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.And yet that's one of the main issues behind low raid popularity. Most people simply do not want to organize their life to that degree around a mere game activity.

Willingness to organize or lack there of is NOT a criteria for difficulty. Only if the proposed organization is vastly exaggerated or complex, that's simply not the case here. Joining a guild where often others do all the organizing for you is hardly difficult or requires an ungodly amount of effort.

It might not be what some want to invest in effort, due to what ever reason, some which are absolutely unrelated to difficulty, but it's not difficult.

Now one can argue that many do not WANT to organize, socialize or w/e reason for a game, but that does not make something difficult, it merely makes something difficult for that individual. That's like saying a person with a phobia of flying is representative of every person and getting into a plane is hard on a general basis.

Even IF we assumed that the biggest issue here is players not willing to join a guild or discord or put in the effort to find a similar minded group of players, then the issue would not be the barrier to raids, but the unwillingness of players to cooperate in a MMORPG which in turn leads to certain content being harder for them, especially as others use these methods to organize themselves.

[Cerioth.7062]

@A R W E N.6895 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@A R W E N.6895 said:I'm just gonna get back to the point of my post. It's not about gear (you can raid in exotic), it's not about skills (you can practice a rotation quite easily on the golem), its about getting 10 players and start the kitten raid. (Oh and please don't tell me the "Join a guild" kitten. GW1 did that properly. Not this game. )

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard. Why? Because all the people who are seriously interested in this content ARE IN A GUILD. You willfully ignoring THE best solution to your perceived problem is on you. Feel free to not follow said advice. We look forward to hearing from you again in years to come about how the main issue is finding 10 players. You'll be one of those "I know about raids and their problems without ever having actually played the content" people who liter these forums.

Here is the first post : "Its not about skills or difficulty, its about getting 10 people together. That's the biggest challenge and the biggest barrier to raid."

Is this my reality? Maybe. However, your proposed solution does not solve the issue I'm pointing with this post. It almost feels like no one is willing to actually get deeper into that statement of mine. Sure, let's find a raiding guild, and then find a static group and bla bla bla, but how much time does that really take? Where is your guarantee that you will have the 10 required players for said raid.

I will keep repeating that same statement because it seems like some people are completely blind to the real issue I'm trying to point."Hint #1 : What makes raid difficult is getting 10 players""Hint #2 : The solution is not the current guild system"

Even my casual non-raid focused guild can scrape up 10 players at least twice a week for raiding. Would do it more often if we had the mindset for that, but that is enough for us for now.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:And yet that's one of the main issues behind low raid popularity. Most people simply do not want to organize their life to that degree around a mere game activity.

Willingness to organize or lack there of is NOT a criteria for difficulty. Only if the proposed organization is vastly exaggerated or complex, that's simply not the case here. Joining a guild where often others do all the organizing for you is hardly difficult or requires an ungodly amount of effort.

It might not be what some want to invest in effort, due to what ever reason, some which are absolutely unrelated to difficulty, but it's not difficult.

You may be right that it's not technically difficult per se. This doesn't mean that it is

easy

either.It's the idea of joining a social construct like guild for reasons that are not tied to social purposes, merely for the sake of doing a specific content, that doesn't appeal to many.

Now one can argue that many do not WANT to organize, socialize or w/e reason for a gameThe people that are given this advice would not be joining those guilds for socializing, though, as it is quite clear that their social circles generally lie mostly outside raiding community.

but that does not make something difficult, it merely makes something difficult for that individual.Difficulty is always

for an individual

seeing as it is a very relative concept. Something you consider difficult may be mindnumbingly easy for someone else. And something you find to be easy someone else might consider to be prohibitively difficult. It's never objective.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:And yet that's one of the main issues behind low raid popularity. Most people simply do not want to organize their life to that degree around a mere game activity.

Willingness to organize or lack there of is NOT a criteria for difficulty. Only if the proposed organization is vastly exaggerated or complex, that's simply not the case here. Joining a guild where often others do all the organizing for you is hardly difficult or requires an ungodly amount of effort.

It might not be what some want to invest in effort, due to what ever reason, some which are absolutely unrelated to difficulty, but it's not difficult.

You may be right that it's not technically difficult per se. This doesn't mean that it is

easy

either.It's the idea of joining a social construct like guild for reasons that are not tied to social purposes, merely for the sake of doing a specific content, that doesn't appeal to many.

I never said it is easy. I contradict this threads main theme that this is the main barrier to raids. Also there are enough players who are unwilling to socialize at all, that is not due to not wanting to join for a specific type of content, and yes, that is in part to how this game is designed and how players are able to progress up to 80.

If a player wants to start raiding, that's very easy. I'd even go as far as making the claim that joining a guild and getting taken along for a raid, if going through the correct channels like a discord or in-game guild advertisement is more enjoyable than joining random strike groups without knowledge of the LFG terminology.

The problem is this widespread misconception that raids are hard, all raiders are toxic, and one must be a god at his class to succeed and enjoy the content. That is not true, all it takes is literally just asking and joining the correct players.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one can argue that many do not WANT to organize, socialize or w/e reason for a gameThe people that are given this advice would not be joining those guilds for socializing, though, as it is quite clear that their social circles generally lie mostly outside raiding community.but that does not make something difficult, it merely makes something difficult for that individual.Difficulty is always

for an individual

seeing as it is a very relative concept. Something you consider difficult may be mindnumbingly easy for someone else. And something you find to be easy someone else might consider to be prohibitively difficult. It's never objective.

There is subjective difficulty and relative difficulty. The mere act of joining and a guild is NOT difficult unless a player has a mental precondition, which one could argue some players have (aka very strong social phobias) which lead these people to play video games in the first place. I in this case would disagree that this is widespread enough to engulf the entire player base, but would argue that rather time constraints, unwillingness to put in this minimum amount of effort or simple lack of knowledge that this is helpful are far more reasonable explanations for people not joining a guild.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Cyninja.2954" said:I never said it is easy. I contradict this threads main theme that this is the main barrier to raids.You didn't. This not being a mechanical difficulty does not mean this is not a barrier. Barrier does not need to be mechanical.

If a player wants to start raiding, that's very easy. I'd even go as far as making the claim that joining a guild and getting taken along for a raid, if going through the correct channels like a discord or in-game guild advertisement is more enjoyable than joining random strike groups without knowledge of the LFG terminology.

The problem is this widespread misconception that raids are hard, all raiders are toxic, and one must be a god at his class to succeed and enjoy the content. That is not true, all it takes is literally just asking and joining the correct players.It's not that raiders are toxic. It's that they create a separate social circle. And your suggestion amounts to someone joining that different social circle. You might as well be telling an US Democrat to join Republican party (or vice versa). Yes, it's as easy as making a choice to do so. No, it's not that easy as just "making a choice".

And as for that claim, been there, done that. It all depends on the specific people you end up with, and (for me at least) there's still way, way too big a chance of happening on people i'd rather avoid (and i need only one such person in a group to sour the whole experience). Most raiders simply are players with attitide towards the game that's very incompatible with mine. I wouldn't be comfortable in such an environment, and it would make the whole affair not enjoyable (again, I am speaking from past experience, not an expected future one).

Hint: the way you completely seem to not understand what i am talking about clearly underscores that difference in mindset.

As i said in my sig - the whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with. The advice to find a guild, for me, is asking me to ignore that rule, and starting to play with people that are decided not by my social requirements, but by the content. You may consider this to be natural, but for me that's a way of thinking i just don't understand. It's something i might be doing when looking for work, but doing that in a game i play for fun is something that's complelety alien to me.

There is subjective difficulty and relative difficulty. The mere act of joining and a guild is NOT difficult unless a player has a mental precondition, which one could argue some players have (aka very strong social phobias) which lead these people to play video games in the first place. I in this case would disagree that this is widespread enough to engulf the entire player base, but would argue that rather time constraints, unwillingness to put in this minimum amount of effort or simple lack of knowledge that this is helpful are far more reasonable explanations for people not joining a guild.See above. It's not about "joining a guild". It's about joining a raiding guild.

[Cerioth.7062]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:See above. It's not about "joining a guild". It's about joining a

raiding

guild.

Actually there are many guilds out there that are not raiding focused or raid guilds - mine included. We got many people in the guild who do not raid, and many who are eager to learn, but we all are a big, active, happy community of players doing things we enjoy together.