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So ANet will fix downstate next?


Melian.5368

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Like other have surely already said:
Downstate is fine
(it improves complexity of gameplay, provides fun roles/tactics and can help a smaller group just as well as a larger one).
Rally can go,
it tends to favour the wrong people in the wrong situation.

Actually every time this thread comes up in either a poll or a discussion the consensus among most players is that it certainly isn't fine. In most polls only around 30% ish think its fine, with the remaining 70% being in agreement to the contrary, usually a mix of "remove it" and "nerf it".

It most certainly doesn't favor the smaller group equally to the large one. The most obvious example of this is the simplest: Two players against one. If the one goes down its gg. If one of the two goes down they are more than likely going to get back up due to how warped the scales are tilted towards the revivers over the stompers/finishers. People have been articulating this point for years with numerous examples on how the larger force, whether thats 1v2 or 5v3 etc is given an even greater edge via downstate on top of the already considerable advantage that having more players in any given fight provides. Its past the point of being a debate its simply a fact.

Threads like this will continue until something is done about downstate. As they should.You got that completely kitten backwards.

Most polls have shown that around 70% are in favor of
keeping it or nerfing it

No I had it right, the majority of people are not happy with the current balance of downstate as it stands most recently. Only 30% were in favour of keeping it unchanged. The remaining 70% were a mix of people who all wanted it to be nerfed in some way. From people wanting it deleted, to people who just wanted rallying removed, more no downstate weeks, no double downed rezing etc etc.

But only 30% were happy with it as it is now. Which is what my reply stated.

I'm afraid you're the one who has it kitten backwards. Unless you can show me a more recent collection of data that contradicts this one? In which case I'd be delighted to change my views.Yeah and thats one of the stupid polls. A tiny amount voted because it was that stupid with far too many options. Even then 70% want to keep and/or see it nerfed (easy math there).

This poll:

Is somewhat better layed out, but still not many voters.

I would still go with the most recent poll.Your poll is over a year old now, and keep in mind people voted in it with the currect OHK meta being a reality. As you also said it lacks a greater variety. Since the rightful damage Nerf downstate is even more oppressive, and I still hold the opinion that the majority of players believe it should be nerfed/re balanced in some way.

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Downstate is a core mechanic of the game, like a unique thing.I agree with that, but it is also a lazy mechanic that rewards big numbers and carry bad players more than skilled ones.

Some fixing I personally would do to downstate.-In sPvP downstate is fine as it is, being 5vs5 and using bleeding tactic at your advantage is okay.-In WvW:Remove Rally completely, I don't care if you damaged the enemy and he died, you are downed too you don't deserve to be autoress.Ress speed should be capped at 1 person. Doesn't matter how many people are trying to ress you, only the 1 person count for the ress.If you use autoattack or skill2 during downed state your health is consumed at 100% more speed (This will need a rework for certain professions, necro ranger autoress etc.)If you have a nearby Downed ally at 600-900 range you receive a -50% debuff to ALL stats, so you decide if try ress him or let him die like it should be.Poison has effect doubled on Downed players.

I didn't removed downed state, but I killed it probably? But I think will be way more healthy gameplay in WvW, let me know.

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@Doug.4930 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Like other have surely already said:
Downstate is fine
(it improves complexity of gameplay, provides fun roles/tactics and can help a smaller group just as well as a larger one).
Rally can go,
it tends to favour the wrong people in the wrong situation.

Actually every time this thread comes up in either a poll or a discussion the consensus among most players is that it certainly isn't fine. In most polls only around 30% ish think its fine, with the remaining 70% being in agreement to the contrary, usually a mix of "remove it" and "nerf it".

It most certainly doesn't favor the smaller group equally to the large one. The most obvious example of this is the simplest: Two players against one. If the one goes down its gg. If one of the two goes down they are more than likely going to get back up due to how warped the scales are tilted towards the revivers over the stompers/finishers. People have been articulating this point for years with numerous examples on how the larger force, whether thats 1v2 or 5v3 etc is given an even greater edge via downstate on top of the already considerable advantage that having more players in any given fight provides. Its past the point of being a debate its simply a fact.

Threads like this will continue until something is done about downstate. As they should.You got that completely kitten backwards.

Most polls have shown that around 70% are in favor of
keeping it or nerfing it

No I had it right, the majority of people are not happy with the current balance of downstate as it stands most recently. Only 30% were in favour of keeping it unchanged. The remaining 70% were a mix of people who all wanted it to be nerfed in some way. From people wanting it deleted, to people who just wanted rallying removed, more no downstate weeks, no double downed rezing etc etc.

But only 30% were happy with it as it is now. Which is what my reply stated.

I'm afraid you're the one who has it kitten backwards. Unless you can show me a more recent collection of data that contradicts this one? In which case I'd be delighted to change my views.Yeah and thats one of the stupid polls. A tiny amount voted because it was that stupid with far too many options. Even then 70% want to keep and/or see it nerfed (easy math there).

This poll:

Is somewhat better layed out, but still not many voters.

I would still go with the most recent poll.Your poll is over a year old now, and keep in mind people voted in it with the currect OHK meta being a reality. As you also said it lacks a greater variety. Since the rightful damage Nerf downstate is even more oppressive, and I still hold the opinion that the majority of players believe it should be nerfed/re balanced in some way.Doesnt change the fact the example you use is a bad poll.

If you made a new poll which just consisted of the two basic options - remove downstate completely or keep downstate and/or nerf (hp, skills, rally, etc) - it will still most probably be a rough 30/70 distribution. Saying "only 30% think downstate it's fine" is twisting it as it implies a minority is in favor of having downstate period, when it's the exact opposite. As you say, you believe a majority of players believe it should nerfed rebalance. Accurate and still keeping downstate. Yet on the type of poll you posted, that option is like... 6 different choices. Of course the percentages will be low while other much simpler options - such as delete it - will look bigger. That is a bad poll.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:

Like other have surely already said:
Downstate is fine
(it improves complexity of gameplay, provides fun roles/tactics and can help a smaller group just as well as a larger one).
Rally can go,
it tends to favour the wrong people in the wrong situation.

Actually every time this thread comes up in either a poll or a discussion the consensus among most players is that it certainly isn't fine. In most polls only around 30% ish think its fine, with the remaining 70% being in agreement to the contrary, usually a mix of "remove it" and "nerf it".

It most certainly doesn't favor the smaller group equally to the large one. The most obvious example of this is the simplest: Two players against one. If the one goes down its gg. If one of the two goes down they are more than likely going to get back up due to how warped the scales are tilted towards the revivers over the stompers/finishers. People have been articulating this point for years with numerous examples on how the larger force, whether thats 1v2 or 5v3 etc is given an even greater edge via downstate on top of the already considerable advantage that having more players in any given fight provides. Its past the point of being a debate its simply a fact.

Threads like this will continue until something is done about downstate. As they should.You got that completely kitten backwards.

Most polls have shown that around 70% are in favor of
keeping it or nerfing it

No I had it right, the majority of people are not happy with the current balance of downstate as it stands most recently. Only 30% were in favour of keeping it unchanged. The remaining 70% were a mix of people who all wanted it to be nerfed in some way. From people wanting it deleted, to people who just wanted rallying removed, more no downstate weeks, no double downed rezing etc etc.

But only 30% were happy with it as it is now. Which is what my reply stated.

I'm afraid you're the one who has it kitten backwards. Unless you can show me a more recent collection of data that contradicts this one? In which case I'd be delighted to change my views.Yeah and thats one of the stupid polls. A tiny amount voted because it was that stupid with far too many options. Even then 70% want to keep and/or see it nerfed (easy math there).

This poll:

Is somewhat better layed out, but still not many voters.

I would still go with the most recent poll.Your poll is over a year old now, and keep in mind people voted in it with the currect OHK meta being a reality. As you also said it lacks a greater variety. Since the rightful damage Nerf downstate is even more oppressive, and I still hold the opinion that the majority of players believe it should be nerfed/re balanced in some way.Doesnt change the fact the example you use is a bad poll.

If you made a new poll which just consisted of the two basic options -
remove downstate completely
or
keep downstate and/or nerf (hp, skills, rally, etc)
- it will still most probably be a rough 30/70 distribution. when it's the exact opposite. As you say, you believe a majority of players believe it should nerfed rebalance. Accurate and still keeping downstate. Yet on the type of poll you posted, that option is like... 6 different choices.
Of course
the percentages will be low while other much simpler options - such as delete it - will
look
bigger.
That is a bad poll
.

You're building a straw man either intentionally or through a misunderstanding. I don't care that the much simpler options "look" bigger. I don't believe that the majority of people want downstate removed. I am of the opinion that 70% of players want downstate to stay in the game. 30% want it deleted, 30% want it completely unchanged and the remaining 40% (the majority) are spread in between.

My entire point, is that according to that pole, 70% of players are not happy with how downstate is balanced presently. The poll is fine, its not misleading if you take 2 seconds to read it. Nobody who examines it is going to conclude more people want downstate deleted. Just as they would also conclude that the majority in fact want downstate changed. The poll expressed that nugget of truth.

If you want to refute me please debate me on this point: 70% of players who voted in that pole are not happy with how downstate is balanced.This is the basis of my entire argument. I don't care which options "look" bigger because they are more simple. I don't care that 70% of players want downstate to not to be deleted. Irrelevant. The most important fact in my opinion is that 70% of players think downstate needs to be re balanced in some way.

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Just as a matter of interest: Doug, what sort of WvW player would you describe yourself as?

I think perspective is important in this and it is also important in terms of getting subjectivity into at least attempts of objectivity. I don't care too much about polls because there is a difference between what is popular and what is good. What most people want in this game is actually often quite irrelevant as most people are not experienced or insightful enough to make an informed decision, they're rarely experienced or insightful enough to even contribute to a constructive discussion.

See, my experience with this mode has taught me that alot of things people want out of balance works in the inverse and these things suggests to me that alot of the players who want downstate to disappear are either people who often play long-range damage builds in larger groups and want more kills while overlooking that the player who has tagged up and enable their entire playstyle may not want it. If that 1 player does not tag those other 49 players often end up doing nothing. They are a majority, but the minority's oppinion on the matter is important.

It could be argued that the 1 player's oppinion on the matter is even more important than those 49 all together or what those 49 players want on a surface level may not be what they want once they do more than scratch surface. They may like to get more bags but if their tag quits over it they may regret it.

Something similar can be seen going on at smaller scales. The point here that relates to the inverse state of things is that if players on classes who excels in for example the hit-and-run gameplay get to dictate what support can do to a degree that causes balance issues then more experienced players on those other classes will begin to play hit-and-run as well and then things tend to no longer be as fun for the majority of rather casual hit-and-run players who now finds themselves in an environment that is all about ganks. Then their perspective on the downstate matter tend to shift as there are many other and better players outmirroring them.

So if you are a commander rather than someone who follows a commander or if you play smaller scale but not on a class that is built around hit-and-run, then fine your oppinion on the matter can be discussed objectively. However, if you are not, perhaps take what I just said into account for future discussion.

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subversiontwo.7501 did put the issue in much better words than i am able to do,but i would like to explain why, from my personal view, the downstate itself have to stay (and it somehow reflects what he is saying, at least partly):

just two days ago, i was with my guild group, whe were 9 people, and i was on my support (aurashare) tempest. Even though i was surrounded by 8 guildies, including reaper, mesmer, revenant (...and more), it wasnt possible to defend me against a single thief that wanted to down me. Some peoble may now want to tell me to learn how to play, but anyway... (initiative system + very high mobility versus attunement-swap cd, skills cd and way to long cast times, and in the best case some swiftness IF the tempest run arcane and way to low damadge to apply any actual pressure .. pleeease).As you may have guessed: he downed me, getting out of 8 people trying to defend me, with "ease" and unharmed.

Without the downstate, this had been just a "free kill" situation. But i really wonder if players like that thief, for example, could live with the consequences that do have to follow, if the downstate will be removed entirely (like removing the initiative system).

I try to make it short about downstate skills over all classes (i want them to be more eqaulized), and why i think the rally-mechanic has to go:

its because Scourge.

There is no doubt, that necro has the by far strongest downstate skills, while with scourge, they also do have the highest possibility to "rally" in large scale.

Even if now, after the latest balance patch, the scourge may see a decline in numbers for large scale: the single most meta defining class since at least pof does have the strongest downstate skills AND the highest chance to rally.

I will happily give up my eles vapor form, for a little bit more ...well, i´m lacking better words - fairness.

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They will never do such changes to downstate, the reason is very simple in anets mind.They will lose casual players/noobs, and for them its all about making that player group feel strong.I mean, we all know downstate was OP for many many years..They don’t care that much for the veteran wvw players, cuz we don’t bring in da money.They will balance this game for casual players, till the end of it’s life cycle.Better look for new games, because anet will always dissappoint you with every “balance” patch they do.

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Same people who QQ about downstate are same people who didn't even participate in fights, just camped their mounts to finish downstates.

Just deal with the downstates. Get a few weavers and chronos to win every rallywar. It just happens you might play a class with bad downed control and that is why you're triggered about them.

I do agree that 1st downstate should maybe be 65% max health instead of 75%. Not because Downstate itself is inherently broken but for sake of different feel within game. This would also indirectly buff Mercy runes and Illusion of life, which would be kinda welcome, as you would have to sacrifice one slot in your comp or runeset to get downstates up. Also Concentration stat could be tuned down a bit in WvW, minstrel is little bit busted when combined with boon duration foods and runes. Basically you have a point that there are too many minstrel players per party within guilds.

Your issues aren't from downstate, it is from teamcomp and metagame. There was never a state of balancethat was more punishing towards having a bad party member. If you don't have a decent firebrand, you're dead. First we moved from 2 guardian parties to 1 FB party, then we moved from ranged meta to melee meta. Both of which punishes having bad party more. Also Launch the downstates, you can run offhand dagger on tempests, use rev elite, run stomp on strength warriors. There are many ways to have downed control. Another way to kill guild groups is playing reaper, removing boons and then pulling the enemies off their tag with GS5 before killing them.

In the end it is a teamgame, if all you do is cloud and gank guilds solo, yea downstate is triggering. Join a team, make a nice comp, make a plan for enemy downstates, make a plan for allied downstates. And at this point, you will be playing WvW. Downstates are hard to deal with and is part of the skillcap within the game.

Downstate isn't OP, it isn't uninteractive, it doesn't carry bad players. It just shuts down "Hit and run" playstyles that are uninteractive.

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Yes, please. Remove downstate so when my WvW guild group rolls over an enemy public twice our size, we don't have to worry about the other side getting a chance to resurrect their members. All fights would basically begin and end with: us engaging, producing 10 kills, disengaging until cooldowns are ready again, then proceed to surgically disassemble the enemy bigger blob until there is nothing left.

Unless the enemy blob is other organized guilds of bigger size.

I think any player here who is not in an organized guild group should think long and hard about removal of downstate. Maybe think about some of the fights you had on border and why they turned out the way they did, and not just remember that 1 time where you didn't get to finish off that one downed target. I can tell you right now, more casual players who rely on numbers will not enjoy downstate getting removed. Which in turn would make this game mode even less populated.

There are certainly some interesting ideas how to approach downstate by for example expanding up how to deal with the mechanic, both offensive as well as defensively. If you strait up remove it, well some players will not be member of this game mode for long.

Final note, there is a huge difference between NA and EU WvW too. Just like most other content in this game, WvW, Spvp, fractals, NA is far less populated compared to the EU counterpart.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:Yes, please. Remove downstate so when my WvW guild group rolls over an enemy public twice our size, we don't have to worry about the other side getting a chance to resurrect their members. All fights would basically begin and end with: us engaging, producing 10 kills, disengaging until cooldowns are ready again, then proceed to surgically disassemble the enemy bigger blob until there is nothing left.

Unless the enemy blob is other organized guilds of bigger size.

I think any player here who is not in an organized guild group should think long and hard about removal of downstate. Maybe think about some of the fights you had on border and why they turned out the way they did, and not just remember that 1 time where you didn't get to finish off that one downed target. I can tell you right now, more casual players who rely on numbers will not enjoy downstate getting removed. Which in turn would make this game mode even less populated.

There are certainly some interesting ideas how to approach downstate by for example expanding up how to deal with the mechanic, both offensive as well as defensively. If you strait up remove it, well some players will not be member of this game mode for long.

That is an extremely important point. Also ppl will probably just do the pew pew range from a far game play and focus commander to kill the pugs. And commanders will be full nomads/melandru runes energy cleansing

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I can tell you right now, more casual players who don't play in guilds will not enjoy guilds and outnumbering opponents taking away tools that gave them a fighting a chance. Which in turn would make this game mode even less populated.And we all know there is so many guilds left that are always on the move and fighting that this gamemode will defenitly have to be balanced around them to keep it alive.

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Downstate favors the larger group even vs skilled smaller group. The larger zerg can simply 5 man res, while the smaller team will struggle to apply enough pressure to actually finish the enemy downed without getting themselves blown up. It's an easy fix though just nerf downstate hp 50% across the board and make it take 20% longer to revive. Anet stays happy because stomp mechanics stay in WvW and players special finishers wont be useless in an entire mode. Also it's another chink in the armor of larger zergs, which would be a healthy thing for WvW. More things that shift the outcome of fights towards skill rather than "which group is larger" are needed.

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The game is already death-centric, people spend more time running back from waypoints than fighting. Various changes like the improved rezz skills, and the higher TTK have made this better, but its still pretty bad. For some reason people think if you run across an entire map and then have a five second fight the game mode is in good shape, and that no more adjustments are needed.

Then there's some who see this fight that lasted five seconds and think "this lasted too long, I didn't get to instantly explode all my enemies" and that's what people in favor of downstate removal want. They want every kill to be quick and permanent, not for the health of the game but for personal enjoyment and reduced frustration on their end. Yes, war is frustrating, but it has to go back ways.

You can't expect to be alive and always have all your enemies dead, It doesn't work that way, you have to die too.

Removal of Warclaw stomp was a mistake, but nerfing or removing downstate won't fix anything. This isn't Quake. People need to have tools that lengthen fight and give their class and build time to shine and that can take a while to happen.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:what is there to fix?

The rally maybe, IMO downstate shoulkd be tweaked to give time for players to get rezed back into actuion by skills, not rubbing nor rally :\, we already have skills that do that.

Dunno, man. You are forced to lock your self on an animation at melee range. That's kinda a death sentence a lot of the time. Sure sometime res is easy but not so in most fights

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Okay.

Fix one shot perma stealth thieves then. Otherwise this is pointless and is going to cause -everyone- to bail en masse because they'll be one shotted have zero chance of knowing what happened and where it came from. Or they'll be thieves. Until only perma stealth thieves remain. Now wouldn't that be interesting. Invisible wars.

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