Should Shaded be Summoned creatures?

[Lily.1935]

This is a curious question as it was something I was surprised by when PoF was released. The shades were unkillable objects as opposed to killable creatures. I found this odd since they seemed extremely powerful for being so uninteractive.

So I'm going to ask. Should the shades be Killable creatures? They would function the same, be immune to CC and blind but now take damage and can be pushed through.

I have other suggestions for how this could be made to work but overall I want the scourge to be powerful and balancing them if the shades are interactive seems like it would make scourge more fair to fight when they're good.

[Lily.1935]

There was supposed to be a I don't know option but just posted anyway. I guess it doesn't matter.

[Lily.1935]

I have a lot of suggestions on how to make this work and work well, but I also need to know the conflict of why this would be a bad idea. In scourge's current balance, yes it would be a major nerf. But adjusting for a few things it gives us a change to really buff the scourge while it still being countered.

Try not to dismiss an idea outright. I want a dialog on this since my perspective is scourge has been a balance nightmare for ages.

I think most have the Turret bias in this where they think they'll have bad AI and be as fragile as turrets. This wouldn't happen. First off the Shades pulse on your command and being a destructible object wouldn't change that. Second, shades have a much shorter cooldown and would have more health for sure.

But that's my guess seeing as when we talk about summons they come up all the time.

[Dadnir.5038]

Personally I wouldn't be against shades being summoned creature (especially if they proc the numerous minions traits). As for whether they should or should not, there is no answer to that.

[LucianDK.8615]

Op, I think you meant path of fire.Yes, I think they shouldve been killable for their power. Then the scourge might not have needed to eat so many nerfs, because of WvWers stacking them in huge amounts. Theres no counterplay at all when a shade is placed, save avoiding the area. But they are increasingly becomming jokes with their low target caps.

[Lily.1935]

@"LucianDK.8615" said:Op, I think you meant path of fire.Yes, I think they shouldve been killable for their power. Then the scourge might not have needed to eat so many nerfs, because of WvWers stacking them in huge amounts. Theres no counterplay at all when a shade is placed, save avoiding the area. But they are increasingly becomming jokes with their low target caps.

Thanks for the catch. That's kinda how I feel. But back then I didn't say anything cuz I was like "gotta keep this a secret. Mustn't mention it." But now with how much damage the scourge has taken I'm more inclined to go with it if we could get some of our viability back.

[Lily.1935]

@Dadnir.5038 said:Personally I wouldn't be against shades being summoned creature (especially if they proc the numerous minions traits). As for whether they should or should not, there is no answer to that.

Yes but also no. The only trait I think would be okay to synergize with shades should be Death Nova. A 25% damage boost, condi transfer on strike and extra 50% health seems overkill when I feel their health should be related to your life force.

[Anchoku.8142]

Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

Come on, they created Blood Bank and Flame expulsion, there is room for efforts if they got the time to do things like these.

[Lily.1935]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

Of course. Like how ranger pets have toughness and health. That's more my comparison than turrets. Since that's a profession mechanic which the ranger relies on. Although there is differences of course, since the Shades would not and will not ever have an AI problem since they wouldn't be turned into ai. So Conditions like Chill, Crippling, Blind, weakness wouldn't influence them at all.

[Teratus.2859]

I'd be all for it so long as they were killable.Gotta be a trade off and I wouldn't mind this one, it would give shades more of a Gw1 spirit kinda feeling which I believe was in part one of the things used for inspiration for these shade skills.

[Lily.1935]

@Teratus.2859 said:I'd be all for it so long as they were killable.Gotta be a trade off and I wouldn't mind this one, it would give shades more of a Gw1 spirit kinda feeling which I believe was in part one of the things used for inspiration for these shade skills.

Ritualist or Shaman, yeah. Ritualist spirits, at least the defensive ones, were more like totems in other games. Scourge is very much a shaman with a different name.

[LucianDK.8615]

dont forget the renegade spirits.

[jpsssss.7530]

Shades and by extension scourge are now potatoes in WvW. Giving shades a health bar will see Scourge disappear entirely.

[Lily.1935]

@"jpsssss.7530" said:Shades and by extension scourge are now potatoes in WvW. Giving shades a health bar will see Scourge disappear entirely.

You're missing the context of the post. If shades are balanced properly they would have a fail safe for fighting the scourge as opposed to either being useless or extremely overpowered with no middle ground. Shades offer a lot of area coverage with no real counterplay to that. This isn't a post of "Just nerf the scourge more", on the contrary its a post to buff them quite a bit, to be closer in power to their prime with a far more exploitable weakness.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Shades and banners should have life bars and be killable. I would rather have stronger shades, that can be killed.

[jpsssss.7530]

@"Lily.1935"

You're missing the context of the post. If shades are balanced properly they would have a fail safe for fighting the scourge as opposed to either being useless or extremely overpowered with no middle ground. Shades offer a lot of area coverage with no real counterplay to that. This isn't a post of "Just nerf the scourge more", on the contrary its a post to buff them quite a bit, to be closer in power to their prime with a far more exploitable weakness.

They were already fairly decently balanced (cooldowns, resource bar, and required a trait to have a decent AOE size) and were a check to heavy boonshare meta. The second you give any skill a health bar it is immediately removed from the pool of usable skills in WvW as it will melt before shroud ends. In addition, the shades and shade skills feel weaker than reaper shroud and WAY weaker than core death shroud because A) you lose a ton of survivability in exchange for circles, B ) their staionary nature makes it so traits like transfusion and even the shroud could miss a substantial number of ticks during a fight C) the shades are really bad in smaller scale fights because people will be less clumpy.

[Kulvar.1239]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

Of course. Like how ranger pets have toughness and health. That's more my comparison than turrets. Since that's a profession mechanic which the ranger relies on. Although there is differences of course, since the Shades would not and will not ever have an AI problem since they wouldn't be turned into ai. So Conditions like Chill, Crippling, Blind, weakness wouldn't influence them at all.

Wouldn't that make Shades closer to Renegade summons ? Static thing with a limited lasting duration that can be killed/CC

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

Of course. Like how ranger pets have toughness and health. That's more my comparison than turrets. Since that's a profession mechanic which the ranger relies on. Although there is differences of course, since the Shades would not and will not ever have an AI problem since they wouldn't be turned into ai. So Conditions like Chill, Crippling, Blind, weakness wouldn't influence them at all.

Yes, but like Ranger pets, if the shades are killable, you may as well just delete them from the game because the same thing will happen. They will die in seconds and be useless.

[anduriell.6280]

@Lily.1935 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Personally I wouldn't be against shades being summoned creature (especially if they proc the numerous minions traits). As for whether they should or should not, there is no answer to that.

Yes but also no. The only trait I think would be okay to synergize with shades should be Death Nova. A 25% damage boost, condi transfer on strike and extra 50% health seems overkill when I feel their health should be related to your life force.So you want somehow the failure of a design from the ranger's spirits to come to necromancer?No thank you.

[Anchoku.8142]

Would killable shades then go into cool-down if destroyed like minions and turrets?

[Lily.1935]

@Kulvar.1239 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:Kind of a "should shades be more like turrets than banners" question but I think it can become balanced if they were killable, non-mobile AoE. They would need toughness, health and reduced vulnerability to mob AoE like minions. It may be a bunch of work for the dev's, though, and I am not sure the result would be worth their effort.

Of course. Like how ranger pets have toughness and health. That's more my comparison than turrets. Since that's a profession mechanic which the ranger relies on. Although there is differences of course, since the Shades would not and will not ever have an AI problem since they wouldn't be turned into ai. So Conditions like Chill, Crippling, Blind, weakness wouldn't influence them at all.

Wouldn't that make Shades closer to Renegade summons ? Static thing with a limited lasting duration that can be killed/CC

NO, mentioned multiple times they wouldn't be able to be CCed.

[Lily.1935]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Would killable shades then go into cool-down if destroyed like minions and turrets?

no.

[Lily.1935]

@anduriell.6280 said:

@Lily.1935 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Personally I wouldn't be against shades being summoned creature (especially if they proc the numerous minions traits). As for whether they should or should not, there is no answer to that.

Yes but also no. The only trait I think would be okay to synergize with shades should be Death Nova. A 25% damage boost, condi transfer on strike and extra 50% health seems overkill when I feel their health should be related to your life force.So you want somehow the failure of a design from the ranger's spirits to come to necromancer?No thank you.

No.