Build diversity should be the main focus of the Dev team..no meta balancing

[Supreme.3164]

I believe that the majority of players paid to play a MMO and not a watered down MOBA , coming from GW1 and see the sorry status of the build diversity is simply...heartbreaking . So much focus on meta balancing that little time get invested into what should be improved, balance is not all about "nerfing" as a small vocal minority would want us to believe, making the gameplay exciting is what draw people to the gamemode , build experimentation is what keeps player in.

Been forced to play a single build for a profession is not what someone would come to expect when used to the gameplay found in GW1, expecting people to play a single role for each class....it's completely unacceptable, this is a MMO= online role playing videogame and it's not a MOBA= multiplayer battle arena

I am expecting to play any given role to certain degree with every class , nowhere in the selection screen it says that your class can only be played as support or DPS and nothing else, ofc there are design preferences for each class and that would be expected from any basic design and what we should see there after is profession being able to cover other roles in minor/major version in the accordance to their original design

Just comparing GW1 PvP meta buld selection to GW2 one....

GW1 https://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Category:Meta_working_PvP_builds VS GW2 https://www.godsofpvp.net/

Too much focus spent trying to please a very vocal minority and not enough time spent trying to improve what does not work and the truth is that the very vocal minority will never be able to support the gamemode , when you try to please the elites too much...your game dies in the end

You devs have examples of MMOs failing trying to follow that example ...heck Anet parent company owned Wild Star , you can't have better example of that : failure when trying to please a small minority

An example of this failing strategy:-Birds did too much dmg so nerf them...well though change, necessary for the betterment of the game and now...what about improving the AI pathing of other pets?....nothing get done-Warrior have too much passive sustain so we reduce it...again necessary change but then...we need more balanced ways for warrior to achieve that sustain....again nothing get done

I can make several examples for each class but no point in doing that, the idea here is to explain how too much focus on meta balancing will inevitably lead to the "death" of the game, players simply become tired of playing the same way, the same build over and over again...and they're forced to do so because the rest doesn't work.This is the PvP segment of a MMO and it's not a MOBA and it's time for the GW2 community to fully accept it and if you don't..just go

[Spellhunter.9675]

If you look at history of most MMORPG with successful PvP scene, it is not about perfect balance or build diversity, it is all about regular meta shifts.

[Exedore.6320]

@Spellhunter.9675 said:MMORPG with successful PvP sceneAll zero of them?

[KrHome.1920]

@Spellhunter.9675 said:If you look at history of most MMORPG with successful PvP scene, it is not about perfect balance or build diversity, it is all about regular meta shifts.Yes, that's the lazy/cheap way of keeping the game experience fresh as people have to change builds every few months.

They don't even try to achieve build diversity, which would have the same effect but is more complex/expensive.

[Shiyo.3578]

I completely disagree 100%. I do not want to play a game where druid is top tier, or burn guardian is top tier, mirage is top tier, or turret eng is top tier, deadeye is top tier, minion necro, etc. These are completely unfun trash things to fight that no one wants to play against.

There are too many fundamentally flawed classes and builds in this game that do not belong in PvP.

[Supreme.3164]

@Shiyo.3578 said:I completely disagree 100%. I do not want to play a game where druid is top tier, or burn guardian is top tier, mirage is top tier, or scrapper is top tier, deadeye is top tier, etc. These are completely unfun trash things to fight that no one wants to play against.

There are too many fundamentally flawed classes and builds in this game that do not belong in PvP.

Purpose of build diversity is to give a multitude of choices to the player...not to create a perfect scenario, again this is a MMO and not a MOBA, the first is about creating enjoyable gameplay experience..the latter is about creating a competitive environment online with a rigid structure of rules.

The major difference anyway is that with MMO : players spend thousand of hours/money to enjoy a specific class however they see fit based on the original design concept, ofc balance is necessary to make sure everybody keeps having fun, we cannot have mechanics/build that ruin it all for everybody.

With that said..the idea that each class should only have access to builds you like to face ( I imagine builds you can win against) does not belong in a MMO...that's more MOBA kind of gameplay

[otto.5684]

@Shiyo.3578 said:I completely disagree 100%. I do not want to play a game where druid is top tier, or burn guardian is top tier, mirage is top tier, or scrapper is top tier, deadeye is top tier, etc. These are completely unfun trash things to fight that no one wants to play against.

There are too many fundamentally flawed classes and builds in this game that do not belong in PvP.

I could say the same about the builds you play. And you may not like to fight mirage, I do. And why should not mesmer mains have their class, or a portion of it, no sPvP viable?

The only thing that unquestionably not fun to play against, is CC spam. Everything else is fair game.

And I agree with OP. People do not play MMOs cuz they are well balanced (that does not mean they should not be). Without diversity, the game struggles with stagnation. Which is big part of the PvP issues now.

[Shiyo.3578]

I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

The OPs mentality is actually the #1 reason this games pvp has always been in a bad state and why anet has constantly DELETED entire amulets sigils runes etc. Rules need to exist, too much creativity and options in builds is BAD.

[melody.2601]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

The OPs mentality is actually the #1 reason this games pvp has always been in a bad state and why anet has constantly DELETED entire amulets sigils runes etc. Rules need to exist, too much creativity in builds is BAD.

Since when are you deciding what belongs in the Game or Meta and what not?

[Supreme.3164]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

I am talking about build diversity not balance. As I have stated already there is always need for balance but killing build diversity got nothing to do with balance. Yes I agree with you that something like turret engi doesn't make much for a fun build to play against but we need something for core engi to play with at least, that's build diversity and the devs are killing it. They're nerfing to balance ok...but they leave stuff untouched for years which is not right, they promised bigger build diversity than GW1 given the reduced the number of skills...but right now we have exactly the opposite

[Shiyo.3578]

@Supreme.3164 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

I am talking about build diversity not balance. As I have stated already there is always need for balance but killing build diversity got nothing to do with balance. Yes I agree with you that something like turret engi doesn't make much for a fun build to play against but we need something for core engi to play with at least, that's build diversity and the devs are killing it. They're nerfing to balance ok...but they leave stuff untouched for years which is not right,

they promised bigger build diversity than GW1 given the reduced the number of skills

...but right now we have exactly the opposite

I didn't play GW1 but bad balance is why build diversity is so low. As someone said in another thread, if your build can't instantly remove 3+ condis it's unviable as condi thief will instantly kill you and remove you from the match making it 4vs5.

If your build is condi but can't remove resistance, it's unviable due to condi rev, is another example.

Balance matters for diversity. It matters a lot, actually.

[KrHome.1920]

"Fun to play against" is one of the most important rules for a competitive game.

It does not mean "being favored against the encounter".

It means that the encounter should not be able to deny/bypass/ignore the class mechanics of the player, so that actual control of the outcome of a fight is possible. It is pointless to even try, if the winner is determined by its superior mechanic. That's not competitive, that's rock paper scissors and the latter has nothing to do with skill.

[Supreme.3164]

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Supreme.3164 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

I am talking about build diversity not balance. As I have stated already there is always need for balance but killing build diversity got nothing to do with balance. Yes I agree with you that something like turret engi doesn't make much for a fun build to play against but we need something for core engi to play with at least, that's build diversity and the devs are killing it. They're nerfing to balance ok...but they leave stuff untouched for years which is not right,

they promised bigger build diversity than GW1 given the reduced the number of skills

...but right now we have exactly the opposite

I didn't play GW1 but bad balance is why build diversity is so low. As someone said in another thread, if your build can't instantly remove 3+ condis it's unviable as condi thief will instantly kill you and remove you from the match making it 4vs5.

If your build is condi but can't remove resistance, it's unviable due to condi rev, is another example.

Balance matters for diversity. It matters a lot, actually.

You are correct! But look here if you just nerf the condi thief...the player who accustomed himself with playing that build will possibly leave the game and pop will suffer, the condi thief build may become unfun to use...what if instead you bring an unused weapon/utility and make so now it can instantly clear 3+ condis and counter the condi thief?

You may bring onboard a player who enjoy play that weapon set but never tried PvP up to that moment because his favorite weapon was unusable and now it's good for something and the condi thief player while he may lose now to the new build...he will keep winning against other build : you create build diversity and increased population.

Mine was a convoluted example but I hope you get the general idea

[Shiyo.3578]

I agree with your 2nd thing, it's why I have a huge thread about my thief changes suggestions and there are numerous changes to adding condi removal/transfer to multiple weapon sets because I feel that condi cleanse is too important and you're hard locked into certain weapon/util choices to have them.

An example is: Shadowstep is condi removal(3), stun break, AND a teleport. This ability is so bloated, so I removed the stun break off it and put it on caltrops, a skill that's useless in every game mode, while adding condi removal or additional condi removal to a some weapon sets (D/D and Sword) to open up options.

Things are the way they are because you need x amount of stun breaks and x amount of condi removal or you're a sitting duck, but all that happens is you're hard locked into those weapons and utils just to survive and it destroys build diversity.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

The OPs mentality is actually the #1 reason this games pvp has always been in a bad state and why anet has constantly DELETED entire amulets sigils runes etc. Rules need to exist, too much creativity and options in builds is BAD.

Sure it can exist, why couldnt it? It's just up to a competant design and balance team to create a fun, effective non spammy playstyle that doesnt carry the players but unfortunately that seems to not be the team in question lol.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

I am a huge proponent of the build diversity over balance issue.

Back many months ago I made a similar thread in the WvW section, where I had stumbled across the idea. I was walking on my way home from work when I saw some birds flocking around in the sky, and it hit me that the way these birds moved seemed nearly identical to how zergs move around in WvW

Ever since I had done lots and lots of research to try and bridge the gap between complex systems and guild wars 2 to try and find out why similar behavior that is exhibited in bird flocks appear in the game, and eventually the conclusion I drew led me to build diversity.

This is the original thread for those interestedhttps://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91924/the-importance-of-build-diversity-and-why-its-more-important-than-balance/p1

At the time, I had trouble trying to articulate the idea because I was still trying to understand how everything was seemingly connected to each other. But after extensive analysis, I figured out all the nuances and have a firm grasp on how it applies to gw2 and it’s balance problems

The first thing to note is that balance in the traditional game sense is fundamentally flawed. That in order to achieve balance via buffs and nerfs is an inherently impossible task. In order for two choices that are different to be perfectly balanced, to the point where no one would ever make a complaint, would require for the two choices to be exactly the same. Once they are the same, they are no longer different choices.

Following this conclusion, you would look at how balance is achieved in systems that exist in the real world. It is achieved by looking at Complex Systems. Complex systems is the basis for how evolution and natural systems create balance via diversity, with one of its fundamental tenants being what’s called Anthropics; or “Selection Principle”

In essence highly diverse systems tend toward balance by the fact that large numbers of them create competition and higher orders of organization to further compete. Because of Anthropics, autonomous agents that can not achieve their autonomous goals will not be selected for and thus they fall out of favor, or become extinct.

So when looking at a game like gw2, and comparing it with gw1, we can make the analysis that builds are the selection parameters for autonomous agents. If these autonomous agents have builds that can’t achieve an autonomous goal (like killing another player) than the build will go “extinct”

If there are a small number of builds that actually can achieve their goals, then they become meta. If there are only a few of these build out there that exist, then there are, because of lack of diverse options, no builds that can compete with them and we get what appears to be imbalance, because of lack of diversity.

So the solution that exists in the real world is that there are many many many highly diverse autonomous agents that can achieve autonomous goals and those agents compete with each other, and because of the sheer amount of diversity causes the system to always self balance.

A good example I like to use is the wolves the rabbits and the grass. The rabbits eat grass, the rabbits become plentiful, the grass starts to run out. The wolves eat the rabbits and the wolves become plentiful, forcing rabbits to depopulate. Rabbits depopulating gives the grass a chance to grow back and forces the wolves to starve and the rabbits have a chance to repopulate again, and the cycle continues forever, always aiming for an equilibrium between the three.

This is balance we see in the game, where condo builds become meta...condo clear conversely becomes meta making condo builds fall out of meta, which consequently forces condo clear out of the meta and the cycle loops continuously.

If there were thousands of available build options all competing with each other than there will exist counters to other builds which counter other builds which counter other builds etc...and because of these anthropics, no one build is ever actually OP because there should exist builds that can compete with that OP build, thus making it not OP.

This is just scratching the surface, explaining in general what the issues are, but there are many more things I could talk about, including proposed solutions to all the problems that come with the philosophy of “game balance.”

@Op I’m glad that you have reached the same conclusion as I, because for a long time I was pretty alone in this sentiment, because it does sound pretty out there...I was at first much like everyone else with this primitive outlook on game balance...thinking nerf this buff that would solve this games problems...but after the research all the problems began to make perfect sense when looking at the issue from diversity perspective rather than a balance prespective.

[pah.4931]

They should have always focused on casual fun over hardcore competitiveness. And part of that fun would be build diversity. Also, map/mode diversity.

[otto.5684]

@"Shiyo.3578" said:I don't care if little Jimmy wants to play an interactive movie turret engineer build and is mad he can't win as it, that doesn't belong in the game for the sake of "Diversity!".

The OPs mentality is actually the #1 reason this games pvp has always been in a bad state and why anet has constantly DELETED entire amulets sigils runes etc. Rules need to exist, too much creativity and options in builds is BAD.

Without getting into specific builds, which builds to play and to play against is highly subjective. If we put broad lines (and even this is subjective), passive game play is bad, too much CC is bad, too much stealth is bad and too much unblockable is bad.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

A company of professional game devs should be able to provide at least sufficient balance AND build diversity, there's no excuse to only provide one or the other.Of course 100% balance is unattainable but no one expects that.

[Aktium.9506]

@Supreme.3164 said:Just comparing GW1 PvP meta buld selection to GW2 one....The GW1 page you posted contains all meta builds for 7 different PvP game modes.

At that point you might as well post meta builds for WvW zerging, WvW smallscale, solo roaming, 2v2, 3v3, Stronghold and GvG for GW2

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Aktium.9506 said:

@Supreme.3164 said:Just comparing GW1 PvP meta buld selection to GW2 one....The GW1 page you posted contains all meta builds for 7 different PvP game modes.

At that point you might as well post meta builds for WvW zerging, WvW smallscale, solo roaming, 2v2, 3v3, Stronghold and GvG for GW2

Actually, that page housed only a small portion of the working meta builds from gw1. There was at the time, a more popular website that housed nearly every single build and comp for all game modes...which was in the thousands, but it had been shutdown, and from what i remember many builds were lost because of lack of backups of the site...or something like that.

I could name off the top of my head, at least 10 popular working builds for warrior from sheer memory alone:BB Hammer War (An Assassin/Warrior build that used Backbreaker to knock you down for 4 seconds to perform a chain of assassin skills to eliminate an enemy.)Earth Shaker War (A somewhat popular GvG based build that utilized AOE knockdowns)Dwarven Battle Stance Int War (A build that used DBS to interrupt an enemy constantly)Shove spike War (An A/W build that used Shove.)Primal Axe Wars (A build mainly used in Iway, but it saw it's uses as a standalone in build in RA)MageHunters (An option for EarthShaker or Dev Hammer wars to use that ensured KD's on monks)Shock Axe (The meta axe build for most of the time period of the game...just an all around fun axe build to play. It had a number of varients that they list their on the wiki, like coward axe, and starburst axe. Much less common than shock axe but ya there was a bunch of variations on the build)Dev Hammer (The other more common meta build for Hammer Warrior.)

Then there's less common but still quiet popular builds like Hundred Blade Spikers, Defy Pain Tank Wars, One shot Decapitate Wars...and can't forget the Headbutt Sword and axe builds.

Basically almost every elite on the class had a useable to meta viable build, and there are builds that use other class attributes that used warrior skills but are considered as builds of the other class. So everything i named is just the tip of the iceberg for just warrior.

Really wish that website was still around because they had every single build man. Really it was a shame when it vanished.

[Kuma.1503]

I would love it if the constant nerfs could take a back seat for a bit so Anet could focus on fixing things that don't work.

Scrapper - What is it supposed to be? A support? A tank? if it is a tank, why is Vitality its trade-off? If it's a support, why was the heal transfer trait nerfed, and why does it have so few supportive traits? If it's a bruiser, why was hammer damage gutted to the point where it cannot reasonably generate barrier? This class fails in all game modes but one, and it's arguably one of the most dead.

Druid - First things first. Rework the unique buffs of spirits into boons. Perhaps then, the stranglehold it has over the raid scene can finally be lessened. After that, perhaps we can start giving Druid some of its damage back and buff it's other support abilities. Trevor had some interesting suggestions on what could be done to this class, and I agree with 90% of what he said.

Mirage - This class needs a rework. The trade-off is a band-aid fix at best on a class that is in desperate need of significant changes. Most would agree that the crux of the issue with Mirage is IH and damage tied to dodge. There have been numerous suggestions on how you can make it more healthy, including causing ambush to trigger on shatter.

Chronomancer - What are its traits attempting to accomplish? This class has had its trait synergies nerfed countless times, to the point where the class is now a clunky, unfun mess to play. Why is it so reliant on slow when its access to slow is so limited? Slow is the rarest condition in the game due to how allegedly powerful it is. If Chrono is going to be a buffer/debuffer class built around Alacrity, Quickness, and Slow then it needs to have the tools and trait synergies to facilitate that.

Core Ele - It needs to be given the Revenant treatment. Give it something that makes you want to pick it over tempest or weaver.

Core Engi - Arguably the second worst core class in the game. Engi has suffered repeated nerfs, all with the intention of bringing down its over performing elite spec. One way that you could give some love to engi is to give it improved Kits. And perhaps Giving them the option to equip a kit in place of their weapon swap. Have the kit use the stats and sigils of whatever weapon is equipped in that slot and let them toggle between the kit and the weapon with a button in the equipment menu.

Perhaps also consider taking their utilities out of the stone age?

Revenant - This class is a menace in PvP, but Herald is actually pretty bad in PvE. It's outclassed by Renegade in every way. Renegade is a superior Boon Support, Power DPS, Condi DPS, and healer. However, since this is the PvP subforum, I will suggest PvP centric changes:

Fix their weapons. Shortbow fixes were a step in the right direction. SB 2 still misses moving targets. Sb 4 still can't be cased behind you. Staff 5 is still a clunky mess that needs to have the self root removed. Sword 3 is still buggy, and frequently fails to latch onto targets for a number of reasons (make it instant like smoke assault). Nerf them if you must, but there's no excuse for their weapons not to function for as long as they have.

And that is the extent of the classes that I am remotely knowledgable about. I'm sure others can give more examples. This game needs a tune-up

[Shiyo.3578]

Herald should lose boons entirely and it should be a renegade thing. Not sure why a pure DPS spec has infinite boons via herald, it's really dumb and why the class is so overpowered in PvP and trash in PvE.

[Shao.7236]

Build diversity is not something people want in MMO's, what people want is to win and get results right away. If you actually care to see build diversity, contact me personally and I'll show you how much there is on the table for my favorite class that nobody cares of in any aspect but one, I do off side stuff but never seriously enough since I prefer focusing in one place.

@Shiyo.3578 You must be joking, Herald makes it hardly DPS when half the efficient is cut down into boons investment.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

Diversity is a false god.

The idea that having thousands of different options would make something better is the same fallacy as assuming that quantity = quality, which is objectively false as it can be demonstrated to be untrue with simple math:

X = 20 x1000Y = 5x10000Y>X50000>20000

To put this in perspective of GW2: Would you rather have 5 viable builds per class that are fun, well designed, interactive to play both as and against, and fairly skill-based? Or would you want 20 viable builds per class that are completely based on luck, are drop dead boring to play, have zero counterplay/are completely rock-paper-scissors, and make little to no difference when played by a veteran vs being played by a trained monkey that is just 12345-ing his skillbar?

The prime focus of balance should IMO just be making sure every class has at least 1 meta build to play. Everything else should be going into making sure that meta is well designed around quality gameplay.