Jump to content
  • Sign Up

I want to raid but I hate meta


Recommended Posts

Hi,

In GW2 I enjoy a bit of everything to be honest. I'd like to give raiding a try but I do hate the whole "meta" scene, I like to create my own builds and once I feel like I have something that really works very well for me I just want to play it. I don't like changing character, equipment and build all the time.I was wondering are you able to join raids if you don't follow the meta ? :astonished:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be honest, yes you can successfuly raid clear on off meta builds. For example if you are not a good power boon Chrono you can try a full diviners boon generator. Will the damage be trash. Yes , but then again most groups don't depend on the boon Chrono to dps. If you want to build your own thing and push through raids all the more power to you.

However!!! There is the one issue that although you don't like the meta , the meta still exists and is generally applied to most people. If a group requests a druid pusher for w5 you are expected to heal the group and push ads at a very minimum. You can't go into the raiding community and expect people to be ok with a dps druid on soldiers gear. Your build should compliment and add value to the team.

My recommendation is to build your own dps class since most people don't really care about the dps rolls anyways. I've cleared dhuum on 6 power Holo for example. Support classes might be more difficult since each support class has tons of utility and responsibilities during a run.

Side note: off meta weird stuff will likely get you booted from experienced pugs or groups .

Good question and some really hard answers.

Wish you the best,

Alac and boon man

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Meta is about synergy and efficiency. Compositions are desired because they work effectively. Maybe you discover a new meta build, maybe you don't. Maybe your build is good, maybe its not. However many people like to stick to the tried and true so that they succeed in a quick manner. You most certainly can create whatever build you want and play it. However, if you are going to do group content then that has to be acceptable to the group you are with. I think that will be your biggest hurdle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the deal:Most players who say they want to run non meta builds don't actually mean that.

What they mean is:I want to run my custom build, which I have no clue how good or bad it is, while not understanding class synergy, and which I have just thrown together because I like the stuff I use.

So to answer your question:No, you absolutely do not need to run meta builds. Many experienced raiders even make adjustments to their builds or customize them. What you need to fullfill is the ROLE for which you are in the group. Chances are very low you'll have the experience and knowledge to do this as new player on a custom build, but not impossible. Easiest to check is probably a dps build since you can simply take that build to the golem and see how it stacks up against other builds both in design as well as your execution of the build.

To make it simple, imagine yourself in the rest of the groups position and ask yourself:Why should they take you along? What value do you and your build bring to the group? How are you a benefit for them to take you along?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People generally don't mind much if your build is meta or off-meta as long as it does its job adequately enough as whatever usual role it's doing in the squad. So even as off-meta, you're still expected to do proper dps as dps and heal+boon to as a support. Considering that people run heal scourge now, 2nd healer isn't necessarily requires to bring much boons if primary healer covers for that slack, but even then Kitty recommends going high BD and try to bring at least fury as healer.And the general mathematic rule is: if your build does lower benchmark dps than meta, you gotta compensate by playing it better than meta players play theirs. If you play a build that benches 25k to 90% of its benchmark dps in real situation, you still out-dps someone who plays 37k build to 60% in real situation. In other words: you need to outskill rest of the squad to do equally well. And of course the most important thing is to understand your build and what it needs to do completely if you go onto unguided paths. Generally doing 25-28k on golem with whatever dps build you're playing is enough for most raid situations.Kitty's personally doing exactly that and that's why people generally let her play even super-memes like power rifle spellbreaker that she benches to 21k. She simply knows what she's doing well enough to cover for that massive difference. You can check Kitty's videos to see how off-meta works as she's played most of imaginable builds. (search "Lady Kitty gw2" on youtube)But even then, memes have their time and place. Like you shouldn't bring a sword to a gunfight, you shouldn't bring a low-performance build to high-end squad or very dps-heavy bosses or condi to power boss/viceversa or you're very likely to get kicked for not carrying your weight. Bringing off-meta power to Largos or condi to KC are extremely easy ways to get defenestrated from squad.And don't ever bring soldier's gears to raids. Never. Dps's job is to dps and healers keep the dpsers alive. Condis with small power component (85% condi/power) can get away with trailblazer's at bosses without toughness tank since power+prec don't affect their dps much. But if you don't know which bosses and draw aggro even once, prepare for boot. Condi should always have viper's main set or equivalent 0 toughness set with high condi duration for those situations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The META is nothing more than strategies and builds which were thought of, tested and proven to work. The ill feeling usually take one of two sides, or more like one of two extremes. Both of them are pretty annoying.

There are indeed those who insist on the exact SC website recommendations for specfic bosses no matter what. They neither understand about build details, about the bosses in question and why stuff is used against them or anything about the synergies at work. They often fail to acknowledge that certain builds are harder to perform well on than others and other limiting factors. People who would bet their life on nobody ever being able to finish a raid unless they run the current META. But that is just one side.

There are non-meta builds and there are non-meta builds. They range from stuff that is almost as good as the current META down to something that is worse than having an empty slot in your squad. Which brings us to the other extreme and why many players tend to be worried whenever they see someone intending to play a non-meta build. I have seen my fair share of these builds people tend to think of themselves. Some of them were so bad, that I would have to try really hard to come up with something lacking synergies to that degree. These players are equally clueless about anything I mentioned above but instead of blindly following the META, they end up completely disregarding it which is just as bad, if not worse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Here is the deal:Most players who say they want to run non meta builds don't actually mean that.

What they mean is:I want to run my custom build, which I have no clue how good or bad it is, while not understanding class synergy, and which I have just thrown together because I like the stuff I use.

No, so far away from the truth, the reason why I don't like meta is because I feel like I am more than capable of building my own builds that I truly understand and know what they do.I hate to copy-paste something and then have to learn another playstyle. I can do it, have done it before I just don't enjoy it.Another reason why I am against meta is because I can't afford swapping stats every so often on my ascended gear, + runes, +sigils etc, I don't have any legendary gear.

So that was the whole reasoning behind this post , I want to be able to play what I have build instead of playing the "crafting" game and focus on making new pieces or changing pieces etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Skugga.5298 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Here is the deal:Most players who say they want to run non meta builds don't actually mean that.

What they mean is:I want to run my custom build, which I have no clue how good or bad it is, while not understanding class synergy, and which I have just thrown together because I like the stuff I use.

No, so far away from the truth, the reason why I don't like meta is because I feel like I am more than capable of building my own builds that I truly understand and know what they do.

Perfectly fine. Chances are high though that unless you have extensive previous experience with raid or fractal content, and/or have done extensive testing and optimization, your personal builds will not cut it.

@Skugga.5298 said:I hate to copy-paste something and then have to learn another playstyle. I can do it, have done it before I just don't enjoy it.

You will have to learn and practice either way. If you assume you can just transition from open world or easier content into raids or high end fractals, you are mistaken.

@Skugga.5298 said:Another reason why I am against meta is because I can't afford swapping stats every so often on my ascended gear, + runes, +sigils etc, I don't have any legendary gear.

The damage meta for 90% of all classes has not changed at all in the last 5 years. It's berserker and viper gear. Healers are on harrier predominantly.

Running your own build will not prevent you from having to use as close as possible to ideal stats. On the contrary, if we assume that your personal build will be inferior to meta builds, and it will be, you are even more reliant on using the correct stats.

@Skugga.5298 said:So that was the whole reasoning behind this post , I want to be able to play what I have build instead of playing the "crafting" game and focus on making new pieces or changing pieces etc.

No one is judging. I merely explained where the disconnect between what most people mean and what actually happens is. Again, as pretty much everyone has pointed out: running non meta builds is perfectly fine as long as you can fulfill the role you are set out to do in the squad.

EDIT: I feel I have to explain this again or at least mention it, since players seem not to understand or know:Meta builds aren't just lumped together by mere accident or by "oh this kinda works". The players who create them usually have extensive knowledge of the game and this games mechanics, do extensive testing, we are talking hours upon hours, and have other experienced players test the builds too. They are made and shared by player passionate about the game after putting tons of work in, and excluding all the builds that did not make the cut.

How much work? Well let me link you to this recent reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/hp0fup/the_chronophantasma_bug_an_indepth_look/ Where 2 players spent a ton of time to track down and explain a bug which has existed for ages with Chronophantasma (great job btw).

That's the level of dedication that some experienced players put into understanding, maximizing and playing this game. While this certainly does not apply to each and every single meta build, it demonstrates how passionate some players are. That's also why I always cringe the moment someone comes asking about running "off" meta builds while likely not being very experienced with the game. If you want to effectively not run meta builds, you first actually have to understand and have mastered the meta, to know how and what you can change. Not the other way around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately this has a negative side effect.. had someone in my raid bring their "custom" build even though we requested that all people take the month to gear up in advance with their class of choice and to watch a video of how to do the raid before we attempt it.

One person decided to show up with a longbow max range ranger wearing full condition gear and running brown bear. None of us kicked him or anything but I personally found it quite rude to the other 9 players who spent time, gold, and effort to make this event happen. It was our first time raiding and we kept wiping with the boss at or less than 5% health - with that one member contributing little to nothing for the group (my druids pet alone was vastly out dpsing them).

The past few days in high tier fractals the same crap has been happening where these max range rangers are joining groups - getting no buffs/heals and dying in nearly every encounter. I main ranger so I guess this infuriates me even more to see people being so selfish. I can see why "elitists" end up posting for experience + specific meta builds, because some people just don't care at all about the others they play with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Strider.7849" said:Unfortunately this has a negative side effect.. had someone in my raid bring their "custom" build even though we requested that all people take the month to gear up in advance with their class of choice and to watch a video of how to do the raid before we attempt it.

One person decided to show up with a longbow max range ranger wearing full condition gear and running brown bear. None of us kicked him or anything but I personally found it quite rude to the other 9 players who spent time, gold, and effort to make this event happen. It was our first time raiding and we kept wiping with the boss at or less than 5% health - with that one member contributing little to nothing for the group (my druids pet alone was vastly out dpsing them).

The past few days in high tier fractals the same kitten has been happening where these max range rangers are joining groups - getting no buffs/heals and dying in nearly every encounter. I main ranger so I guess this infuriates me even more to see people being so selfish. I can see why "elitists" end up posting for experience + specific meta builds, because some people just don't care at all about the others they play with.

Whilst frustrating, that Longbow Ranger is still going to fail to contribute no matter what build he is bringing. There is a point where poeple are just so bad that it doesnt matter what they run and I can guarantee 90% of longbear players are exactly this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@TrOtskY.5927 said:Whilst frustrating, that Longbow Ranger is still going to fail to contribute no matter what build he is bringing. There is a point where poeple are just so bad that it doesnt matter what they run and I can guarantee 90% of longbear players are exactly this.

Actually longbow soulbeast is extremely strong and meta on a few raid encounters and fractal bosses. It does a lot of damage but only with soulbeast and only when used together with x / axe in the 2nd set.Meta builds are nothing special. If the OP would understand how the raids work he would come up with a build thats extremely close to meta. But this reads more like the OP wants to bring his celestial staff core ele into raids or something like a trailblazer staff mirage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

META means: Most Effective Tactic Available. Periodically you see Snowcrows posting new METAs after balance patches. And each bossfight has a different META. However in reality people don't go with the "most effective" classes but rather "mostly effective" teamcomps. While certain classes/roles for many encounters are kinda mandatory, dps roles however are not. For example if you want to go with a dps engineer while the META suggests to play dragonhunter that will not be a huge problem.However that being said there are not many "creative" options while you are making a dps class. You gotta try get that critcap with your build.For example if you play warrior, you can run full zerk with one piece of assassin's and run Thief runes as the *meta suggests or go with more assassin's pieces and get scholar runes with a minor dps loss. Will not be most effective, but will be very close to it. Or you could change 1 trait or two depending on a situation on your class. But more than that can seriously harm the potential of the class you are playing. Let's say if you can change the build of your warrior and do 90% of the benchmark, you are good. Chances are your gameplay will not be much different from the "meta build" and the authenticity of your build won't interest anyone and is more RP than anything else, so you will be handicaping yourself and your team by gaining nothing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you don't like Meta gaming find another game. GW2 has been this way for years and unfortunately it doesn't seem like it is going to change anytime soon. GW2 straight up lied about there being:a)no dedicated support / tankb)skillful playc)balanced)play however you wante)no grindf) actions against cheaters and botsand then censor anyone who calls them out for it. Apart from that and the very poor PR skills the game is actually very good though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you're gonna play DPS, feel free to make any build you want. Take into consideration, however, that Raid Bosses has a time limit before enrage, enrage makes most of the bosses twice as difficult to deal with and its something no one wants to deal with. To avoid this, you need good squad DPS to kill the boss before it hits enrage.Another thing is, having decent squad DPS allows your group to skip mechanics that are bothersome or hard to deal with.

Just do yourself a favor, you don't want to "copy paste" a meta build and thats ok, but before you decide to go raiding, go to the Raid Trainign Golem, apply 10 condis on a 4m hp golem, and put yourself all the boons and warrior/ranger boons, if you kill the golem for more than 3 consecutive times with an ending dps of 25k or above with your own build, you're fine to start training/raiding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont think its too bad if playing something not-meta.

For example ,i main herald as a dps class. Is it meta? Not even close. But im still able to compete damage-wise with meta classes/builds.... at least sometimes.

i think if ur stuff would work too, unless its like "Dps with Celestial-Stats only" or smth close

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Leo.5829 said:If you don't like Meta gaming find another game. GW2 has been this way for years and unfortunately it doesn't seem like it is going to change anytime soon. GW2 straight up lied about there being:a)no dedicated support / tankb)skillful playc)balanced)play however you wante)no grindf) actions against cheaters and botsand then censor anyone who calls them out for it. Apart from that and the very poor PR skills the game is actually very good though.

A competitive game where meta doesn't matter doesn't exist. Computer game or any game. I can't think of a game completely devoid of tactics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Skugga.5298" said:

No, so far away from the truth, the reason why I don't like meta is because I feel like I am more than capable of building my own builds that I truly understand and know what they do.I hate to copy-paste something and then have to learn another playstyle. I can do it, have done it before I just don't enjoy it.Another reason why I am against meta is because I can't afford swapping stats every so often on my ascended gear, + runes, +sigils etc, I don't have any legendary gear.

So that was the whole reasoning behind this post , I want to be able to play what I have build instead of playing the "crafting" game and focus on making new pieces or changing pieces etc.

I honestly think you're exactly the kind of player Cy was talking about. I'm deeply suspicious of the fact that you didn't once mention arcdps. How do you know your build is actually any good? If you are able to solo some content on your build, great... you still would have no way of knowing if your build took 5x longer to complete that encounter than other (even non-meta) builds. The problem is even worse in group content. Sure, you might be able to clear some instances/fractals/whatever... but without direct measurement, how do you know you're not just getting carried?

I ran arcdps well, well, well before I ran a single fractal or raid. Also, the vast majority of my use for arcdps is to test all my non-meta builds. It's the only way I can say, with confidence, that I can be reasonably contributing to a group's success in content where failure is more of a risk. Again, this is not about being a meta slave. In fact, testing and using the same tools all the meta people use for measurement is how you can escape meta slavery, much like @LadyKitty.6120 is sorta famous for.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People with experience might be able to run off meta builds and make it useful in raids. However if you have no experience in the first place and also refuse to run a meta build im aifraid all you'd do is leech. And I think it's obvious why people don't want that. Gather a squad of 10 inexperienced people running offmeta builds and try to kill a boss. You will see how it goes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Making your own group would be the best. Find some like-minded people, explain to them what you would like to do. Start training together and work your way up. Find a nice guild you'd like to join or create your own. This way you ensure that you will be playing with ppl on the same page as you are. Its what I did in another game, and it was super fun. No pug nightmares, no stress beforehand because you don't know if the ppl you're playing with are gonna go off when things go south. Then you start getting better together and fights that took long and had many wipes suddenly become easy as you progress.

Also the whole META stuff comes with its own preconceived notions that aren't always correct. Such as ''dps meters = toxicity'', which is simply not true but can feel like that if you are unfamiliar/uninitiated into raids. DPS meters are a tool that can help you figure out where you can still improve. Meta builds are recommended and used because they work. That doesn't mean that they are the end-all when it comes to building for a raid. But they definitely can help serve as a stepping stone towards a better understanding of your class/spec because they are specifically tailored for doing this sort of content. Once you understand why a build is setup like it is, and what makes it work, you can start looking outside of the meta, make your own configurations and test these for yourself. But you will most likely always have to compromise. A build that you absolutely love to play might just not be good enough for raid content. That's not a negative thing. It just means you need to adapt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was like you. I had my trailblazer, mad kings runes renegade build that i really liked and i thought i can run this in fractals or raids, because i was stomping open world content. Boy i was i wrong, got my first reality check in fractals, when i did less dps than boon chrono.

its fine if you dont want to play meta build, but dont be surprised if you get kicked out of groups for not pulling your own weight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Skugga.5298" said:No, so far away from the truth, the reason why I don't like meta is because I feel like I am more than capable of building my own builds that I truly understand and know what they do.I hate to copy-paste something and then have to learn another playstyle. I can do it, have done it before I just don't enjoy it.Another reason why I am against meta is because I can't afford swapping stats every so often on my ascended gear, + runes, +sigils etc, I don't have any legendary gear.

So that was the whole reasoning behind this post , I want to be able to play what I have build instead of playing the "crafting" game and focus on making new pieces or changing pieces etc.

nice that you understand your own builds, but do you understand teamcompositions and how teamoptimization works?

as example: all power builds try to cap on 100% critchance...so each class uses berserker and / or assassins gear to get there. depending on the traits of a class, you can either go with full zerk or need to slot in different runes / sigils / assassins gear. or craft your build in a way that you reach 100% critchance with spotter, while being able to simply use +100 precision food incase you do not get spotter, but still critcap.now, thats for a build on a power dps slot. options are limited...but meta for soulbeast for example would be to take skirmishing + scholar runes and fullzerk, while offmeta would be using marksmanship and using thief runes to be able to critcap. second build is offmeta, but still performs nearly as good as the meta variant and is therefore playable in a power dps slot.same with all kinds of power holosmith variantions where you either play with sword and 150% heat while never overheating....or only 100% heat and rifle while always overheating.

another example would be playing the meta quickness firebrand vs the nonmeta quickness firebrand version which uses firebrand runes. both do nearly the same kind of damage, both can provide permanent quickness. one is meta and one is not a meta build. the non meta build is objectivly even better then the meta build in scenarios without perfect gameplay, as you overcap boon duration by enough to have room of error. or room to breath in case you need to move a lot and group members are not always in range so you can hold back without loosing permanent quickness uptime on the group.

...now, if you say "you know what your build does". well what does it in a group scenario? what are you going to play? dps? lets say hypothetical you have a open world build crafted arround staying alive and getting might. what does your build accomplish in a group setting? your druid is getting your heals and 25 might forever. whats the point of playing your build then in a group?

from what you said i do not believe in the slightest that you have any idea how group content works and why meta builds are played. but you said it yourself already in terms of meta:

So that was the whole reasoning behind this post , I want to be able to play what I have build instead of playing the "crafting" game and focus on making new pieces or changing pieces etc.

thats also one of the reasons why people play the meta. they know that they do not have to get more assassins pieces in because they get spotter from the druid and banners from the warrior. they know they do not need to take strengh runes because someone in the group is already dedicated to that and generates enough might. the chrono knows he can drop the alacrity well because they have a 10 man alacrity renegade in the group. that the beauty of snowcrows for example. all builds are made in such a way that you just have to check: do i have banners? do i have spotter. check check. i know i have 100% critchance. i miss spotter? oh gotta grab the precision food and i have 100% critchance to the point without overcapping anything.

...if you say, okay my build can get 25x might up on a group and thats my job now and find a group which takes you in...fine, you are doing your job. if you say you have a off meta healer build which does the job...fine. we have many off meta healers which can used alongside a druid. rev healer, necro healer, tempest healer, engi healer are just a few examples. i bet my ass you could do a meme shoutheal warrior and be good enough with that. as long as you do your job.

what needs to be covered by the group: 100% boonuptime of at least 25x might, fury, quickness and alacrity. preferably regeneration and protection, swiftness is just always there.what needs to be covered on self on a dps build: 100% critchance on a power build and 100% condition duration of the main condition(s) you put out.on a dps builds there is no way on: "hmm, i gotta build defense because i get damage." that does simply not exist in group content...basically no way arround the main damage stats of berserker / assassins or vipers with a bit of grieving / sinister.

so whatever you do, keep in mind you are playing group content and you are performing a single role, not multiple. also get arcdps and on the training golem in the aerodrome.chances are whatever you are doing right now and think its right: its bullshit in organized content and does not work. why are those chances high? because you posted this topic. if you would understand the topic at hand, you wouldn't post it but already do your own (somewhat good) builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"skarpak.8594" said:on a dps builds there is no way on: "hmm, i gotta build defense because i get damage." that does simply not exist in group content...basically no way arround the main damage stats of berserker / assassins or vipers with a bit of grieving / sinister.Actually condi is often quite lenient about that. Condi weapons generally have low power damage co-efficient and condi and power traits are usually mutually exclusive. On top of that, condi builds have pretty much 0 ferocity boosts so even their already low power damage doesn't get boosted much even if you capped crit rate. Condibuilds generally do 80-85% condi and 15-20% power damage and due to aforementioned reasons, using carrion's instead of viper's isn't much dps loss on classes that specialize in 1-2 condis, condi FB as easiest example as it doesn't have icd-less "condi on crit" - trait either.Also, power reaper can take Decimate Defenses instead of Soul Eater for very minimal dps loss while making it possible to run almost full Valkyrie stuff for 30k+ health pool. DH also overcaps crit rate a bit so it can take some valkyrie pieces in some situations. Same with power rene.

so whatever you do, keep in mind you are playing group content and you are performing a single role, not multiple.Actually, sometimes you can run alternative specialized multirole builds in off-meta comps.For ex. Kitty personally likes tanking on 10-target mightbot power banner warrior (by using stuff to get to 1151 toughness if there's spiritbeast present) and carrying squads with Blood Magic barrierbot condi (epi) scourge.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...