I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Methuselah.4376]

@Kolsyrad.2807 said:How is Scourge in PvE nowadays tho?I am thinking about jumping back into GW2 again and I really wanna play Necro but don't like the melee Reaper :(.I normally prefer to play casters in games and I remember when I played core condi necro was what scratched that itch for me while Ele didn't.

More I look into Necro the more depressed I get about it, damage seems so low with Scourge being even lower?

Scourge is a s h i t show unfortunately. Does alright for general pve, and even has some niche spots in raids, but damage is very low.

[Nimon.7840]

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger:

Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be.

So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was

obliterated

.

I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet

is

aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it

could

mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will

never

admit that!

About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's

early

testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

Grinding all day long, and minmaxing shroud. I tried that rotation, and was slightly below the benchmark, but you'll be out of lifeforce at the end oof the golem fight.So if there's no adds in a real fight, to refill lifeforce the rotation isnt doable

[Nimon.7840]

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger:

Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be.

So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was

obliterated

.

I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet

is

aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it

could

mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will

never

admit that!

About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's

early

testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

Yea, and now it's definitely impossible to take

any

damage in shroud anymore, if you want to max out your DPS! But still: almost 10% increase ... like I said before, not yet enough, but definitely not insignificant either!

We are definitely in a better spot in Fractal, thanks to higher bursts with shorter cooldowns, and better Chill uptime. Also, we don’t have critical chance problems in Fractal.

In most Fractal encounters we can take Signets of Suffering (which in combination with Signets of Vampirism will also provide the best sustain, both passive and active if needed) instead of Awaken the Pain, with no DPS loss (probably even a small DPS increase in most encounters).

Wait. You get 25% critchance in fractals?That's how much you need to critcap right now (assuming banners and fury, if you get spotter as well you still missing 20%). As far as I understood and tested.Also signets offer a lot less power than awaken the pain does.So signets will only be better, if your support is bad and can't give 9 might from the start of fights.Signets only gives an additional 90 power while in shroud.Awaken the pain gives up to 250 extra power in and outside of shroud

No DPS loss because fights are mostly a lot shorter and Shroud bursts (often performed when the enemy has the Exposed debuff) are more important. Often Shroud bursts will also be available after “invulnerability phases” (almost every boss require to rapidly burst, “pause” and burst again). There is not much out of Shroud fight in Fractal.

Gaining Life Force in Fractal is also much less of a problem.

[Black Storm.6974]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger:

Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be.

So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was

obliterated

.

I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet

is

aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it

could

mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will

never

admit that!

About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's

early

testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

Yea, and now it's definitely impossible to take

any

damage in shroud anymore, if you want to max out your DPS! But still: almost 10% increase ... like I said before, not yet enough, but definitely not insignificant either!

We are definitely in a better spot in Fractal, thanks to higher bursts with shorter cooldowns, and better Chill uptime. Also, we don’t have critical chance problems in Fractal.

In most Fractal encounters we can take Signets of Suffering (which in combination with Signets of Vampirism will also provide the best sustain, both passive and active if needed) instead of Awaken the Pain, with no DPS loss (probably even a small DPS increase in most encounters).

Wait. You get 25% critchance in fractals?That's how much you need to critcap right now (assuming banners and fury, if you get spotter as well you still missing 20%). As far as I understood and tested.Also signets offer a lot less power than awaken the pain does.So signets will only be better, if your support is bad and can't give 9 might from the start of fights.Signets only gives an additional 90 power while in shroud.Awaken the pain gives up to 250 extra power in and outside of shroud

No DPS loss because fights are mostly a lot shorter and Shroud bursts (often performed when the enemy has the Exposed debuff) are more important. Often Shroud bursts will also be available after “invulnerability phases” (almost every boss require to rapidly burst, “pause” and burst again). There is not much out of Shroud fight in Fractal.

Gaining Life Force in Fractal is also much less of a problem.

Signets of Suffering provides 270 power (20 more than the maximum provided by Awaken the Pain) while in Shroud if you use Signet of Spite, not 90. Signets don’t work while in Shroud if you don’t have Signets of Suffering.

I have already told you why Signets of Suffering won’t be a DPS loss in Fractal, even taking into account the power loss outside of Shroud.

You have to fight in Shroud much more than out of Shroud there, and the vast majority of the damage is performed while in Shroud. Most things die in seconds, most bosses have “invulnerability phases” that let your Shroud recharge while you can’t damage them. Fighting in Fractal is mostly “bursting while in Shroud”.

Signet of Vampirism is also, compared to any alternative, a far better heal in Fractal when combined with Signets of Suffering. It can constantly heal you (while doing a small amount of damage), also while in Shroud, and that is useful.

About the critical chance, you are right, it is not capped outside of Shroud, so it would be more correct to say that we have far less problems of critical chance there, mainly for two reasons:1- We get extra critical chance based on how much Agony Resistance we have, when using the offensive Fractal potion.2- As I said before the vast majority of the damage comes from bursting while in Shroud (usually with 100% critical chance), in fact Discretize (an international high end EU Fractal guild) don’t recommend to use the Accuracy sigil on the Greatsword. Impact is significantly more effective there.

[KrHome.1920]

If you test it at the golem, even at optimal conditions, the difference between awaken the pain and signets of suffering somewhat around 500 dps. It's basically the same.

I would always use the signet trait over awaken the pain, because its effect is consistent no matter what your group does, while maintaining 25 might stacks requires some effort and competence in your group. If your average might stack is only 20 or so, then awaken the pain is outperformed by the signet trait.

In pretty much every pug scenario the signet trait should grant more dps (and more survivability too).

This does not mean, that the signet trait is too strong. Awaken the pain is too weak. In zerk gear - without any further buffs - it's a 10% damage increase at a 25 might stack (additional 250 power @ 2557 power in ascended zerk gear + scholar rune). And it has even a tradeoff (lesss condition damage). This trait should be buffed to +15% damage @ 25 might in zerk gear + power rune. This means it should grant 45 power per might stack.

[Nimon.7840]

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Black Storm.6974 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Methuselah.4376 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

ADDENDUM: I found this interesting in todays patch notes for Ranger:

Damage-build soulbeasts have been unleashing numbers that are higher than they should be.

So ... what does this tell you about Reaper's DPS? I tells ME that Anet is more than aware and monitoring DPS output from classes and acting accordingly ... so again, it's not that Anet can't change Necro DPS ... it's that they don't want to.

I get what your driving at but you do realize they only lost 50 power/condi yes? That's a roughly 1% loss. Not that I am complaining mind you; I recently got into power soulbeast and am really enjoying it both in raids and in fractals so naturally I was terrified that it would be nerfed to the ground (but so far it doesn't seem so). This happened to me with staff weaver as well: the moment I got comfy with the rotation, it was

obliterated

.

I think the relevant thing for me about that is when people continuously imply that Anet 'isn't aware' of the benchmarks and the DPS levels as the reason why they keep making DPS QQ threads ... but clearly Anet

is

aware and even showing us here they WILL act on it. Your experience is indicative of what I believe to be the truth about balance in this game ... it's not about performance equivalence in DPS. It's a dead end.

So now you're saying Anet consider performance and benchmarks in their balancing?

What do you mean NOW? I've always said that Anet has some process that they monitor and evaluate Classes for changes ... I'm NOT saying it's related to the DPS measurements that players worship to push meta. Good try though.

I really wish I had the time sift through your posts because you are contradicting things you've said and defended so adamantly in the past.

This person is full with contradictions. Anyway, it might actually be a good thing: it

could

mean he/she is slightly changing opinions. Human after all? :) Although he/she will

never

admit that!

About admitting you're wrong every now and then: it might look like I made a mistake in one of my previous posts. Early testing with Snowcrows point towards a 2k to 3k DPS increase on the Power Reaper, which could bring us up to 33k or 34k DPS. At best that's near 10% DPS increase. Still not enough imo, but definitely not insignificant either! One more patch like this, and we're up with the big boys :).

BIG DISCLAIMER though, it's

early

testing and from hearsay ... nothing set in stone yet!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZ-HZXBYDUU&start=4s

33.4-5k is as high as they could reach. They were trying hard to push for 34k but sadly that couldn't be reached.

They managed to reach 34k! But ye it's very RNG dependent so would say average is 32k, which is 2.4k more than the previously expected average of 29.6k

Do you know how they managed to reach 34k? I should be sleeping but I think I’ll go back to test power Reaper :)

As you said before, it is dependent on rng for out of Shroud attacks critting. They are hoping to pull higher numbers now if they managed to get good rng. Oh and on the 34k one they started off with horrible rng.

This is not the same guy, they just used this person's rotation with some minor tweaks (trying to avoid using GS3 >50%). Mind you, even in this video I linked, they got to 33.7k in the end.

Here we go, they posted it on Youtube. Do note that they ended up with very little LF as they were going for max damage. In a real raid scenario you would want to add in more LF generations in you rotation >50% as ticking damage would otherwise knock you out of shroud.

Yea, and now it's definitely impossible to take

any

damage in shroud anymore, if you want to max out your DPS! But still: almost 10% increase ... like I said before, not yet enough, but definitely not insignificant either!

We are definitely in a better spot in Fractal, thanks to higher bursts with shorter cooldowns, and better Chill uptime. Also, we don’t have critical chance problems in Fractal.

In most Fractal encounters we can take Signets of Suffering (which in combination with Signets of Vampirism will also provide the best sustain, both passive and active if needed) instead of Awaken the Pain, with no DPS loss (probably even a small DPS increase in most encounters).

Wait. You get 25% critchance in fractals?That's how much you need to critcap right now (assuming banners and fury, if you get spotter as well you still missing 20%). As far as I understood and tested.Also signets offer a lot less power than awaken the pain does.So signets will only be better, if your support is bad and can't give 9 might from the start of fights.Signets only gives an additional 90 power while in shroud.Awaken the pain gives up to 250 extra power in and outside of shroud

No DPS loss because fights are mostly a lot shorter and Shroud bursts (often performed when the enemy has the Exposed debuff) are more important. Often Shroud bursts will also be available after “invulnerability phases” (almost every boss require to rapidly burst, “pause” and burst again). There is not much out of Shroud fight in Fractal.

Gaining Life Force in Fractal is also much less of a problem.

Signets of Suffering provides 270 power (20 more than the maximum provided by Awaken the Pain) while in Shroud if you use Signet of Spite, not 90. Signets don’t work while in Shroud if you don’t have Signets of Suffering.

I have already told you why Signets of Suffering won’t be a DPS loss in Fractal, even taking into account the power loss outside of Shroud.

You have to fight in Shroud much more than out of Shroud there, and the vast majority of the damage is performed while in Shroud. Most things die in seconds, most bosses have “invulnerability phases” that let your Shroud recharge while you can’t damage them. Fighting in Fractal is mostly “bursting while in Shroud”.

Signet of Vampirism is also, compared to any alternative, a far better heal in Fractal when combined with Signets of Suffering. It can constantly heal you (while doing a small amount of damage), also while in Shroud, and that is useful.

About the critical chance, you are right, it is not capped outside of Shroud, so it would be more correct to say that we have far less problems of critical chance there, mainly for two reasons:1- We get extra critical chance based on how much Agony Resistance we have, when using the offensive Fractal potion.2- As I said before the vast majority of the damage comes from bursting while in Shroud (usually with 100% critical chance), in fact Discretize (an international high end EU Fractal guild) don’t recommend to use the Accuracy sigil on the Greatsword. Impact is significantly more effective there.

Ok to end this signets trait discussion:

With signets traited: in shroud 270 power from signet, out of shroud 90 power.

With awaken the pain: extra power 200 in shroudOut of shroud 290 (assuming 20 stacks might, which should be achievable)

With the optimal golem rotation you have 56% shroud uptime and are 44% of the time out of shroud.

So for both examples: assuming 20stacks might:

Signets trait:power in shroud: 20x30+270= 870Power out of shroud: 20x30+180= 780Average extra power: 870x0,56+780x0,44= 830,4 extra power.

Awaken the pain:in shroud: 20x40= 800Out of shroud: 20x40+180= 980Average extra power: 800x0,56+980x0,44= 879,2

So overall, awaken the pain will give you more extra power than signets of suffering.

But I guess now it really comes down to how long a fight is. If it's a really short fight, signets will be better, because you have higher power in shroud and hence a better burst. Shorter fights = higher shroud uptime.in longer fights, or if you can't achieve such a high shroud uptime, or if you have more might, awaken the pain is better for more sustained dps.

[KrHome.1920]

@Nimon.7840 said:Ok to end this signets trait discussion:

With signets traited: in shroud 270 power from signet, out of shroud 90 power.

With awaken the pain: extra power 200 in shroudOut of shroud 290 (assuming 20 stacks might, which should be achievable)

With the optimal golem rotation you have 56% shroud uptime and are 44% of the time out of shroud.

So for both examples: assuming 20stacks might:

Signets trait:power in shroud: 20x30+270= 870Power out of shroud: 20x30+90= 690Average extra power: 870x0,56+690x0,44= 790,8 extra power.

Awaken the pain:in shroud: 20x40= 800Out of shroud: 20x40+90= 890Average extra power: 800x0,56+890x0,44= 839,6

So overall, awaken the pain will give you more extra power than signets of suffering.

But I guess now it really comes down to how long a fight is. If it's a really short fight, signets will be better, because you have higher power in shroud and hence a better burst. Shorter fights = higher shroud uptime.in longer fights, or if you can't achieve such a high shroud uptime, or if you have more might, awaken the pain is better for more sustained dps.Why so complicated?

You pick Awaken the Pain:

• Awaken the Pain does grant you +250 power all the time (if you can keep up 25 might!)
• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of shroud and +0 power in shroud.

You pick Signets of Suffering:

• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of Shroud and +270 power in shroud
• Signet of Vampirism deals ~200 dps in shroud (2x if two targets)

Result:

• Awaken the Pain: 250 more power out of shroud
• Signets of Suffering: 20 more power + 200 more dps in shroud

You deal a significant amount of your overal damage in shroud as you have +600 ferocity there and 100% crit chance. This relativizes the +250 power of AtP out of shroud. At the end of the day the damage difference is less than 1K. Considering the fact that Signets of Suffering is more consistent and improves survivability, this trait is often the better choice.

[Nimon.7840]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:Ok to end this signets trait discussion:

With signets traited: in shroud 270 power from signet, out of shroud 90 power.

With awaken the pain: extra power 200 in shroudOut of shroud 290 (assuming 20 stacks might, which should be achievable)

With the optimal golem rotation you have 56% shroud uptime and are 44% of the time out of shroud.

So for both examples: assuming 20stacks might:

Signets trait:power in shroud: 20x30+270= 870Power out of shroud: 20x30+90= 690Average extra power: 870x0,56+690x0,44= 790,8 extra power.

Awaken the pain:in shroud: 20x40= 800Out of shroud: 20x40+90= 890Average extra power: 800x0,56+890x0,44= 839,6

So overall, awaken the pain will give you more extra power than signets of suffering.

But I guess now it really comes down to how long a fight is. If it's a really short fight, signets will be better, because you have higher power in shroud and hence a better burst. Shorter fights = higher shroud uptime.in longer fights, or if you can't achieve such a high shroud uptime, or if you have more might, awaken the pain is better for more sustained dps.Why so complicated?

You pick Awaken the Pain:

• Awaken the Pain does grant you +250 power all the time (if you can keep up 25 might!)
• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of shroud and +0 power in shroud.

You pick Signets of Suffering:

• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of Shroud and +270 power in shroud
• Signet of Vampirism deals ~200 dps in shroud (2x if two targets)

Result:

• Awaken the Pain: 250 more power out of shroud
• Signets of Suffering: 20 more power + 200 more dps in shroud

You deal a significant amount of your overal damage in shroud as you have +600 ferocity there and 100% crit chance. This relativizes the +250 power of AtP out of shroud. At the end of the day the damage difference is less than 1K. Considering the fact that Signets of Suffering is more consistent and improves survivability, this trait is often the better choice.

Only in short fights where you have a considerably higher shroud uptime than out of shroud time.

As you pointed out 20 more power and 200 dps. Extra 600 ferocity is 40% critdamage.

250 more power out of shroud is important if fights are dragged out.Sure if you can shroud burst > out of shroud rotation > shroud burst and the boss is dead then, yes signets trait is definetly better.I'm a hundred percent with you.

But for longer fights, awaken the pain is better as I already showed.It takes almost 2 minutes to kill the 4m health golem.And it's already a shroud uptime maximized build. Leaving you out of lifeforce as soon as the golem dies.In normal raid encounters I believe, that you cannot get to this amount of shroud uptime.In a normal pug group (raids), most bosses also take longer than 2 minutes to kill + there's incoming damage which will lower your shroud uptime (and not all bosses do have adds to refill lifeforce).So: in raids it's definetly awaken the pain that's better.

I'm not sure if this is true for fractals as well, I wasn't in there with good groups for a long time, so I don't have a feeling about the average time you need to kill bosses in fractals.

[Black Storm.6974]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:Ok to end this signets trait discussion:

With signets traited: in shroud 270 power from signet, out of shroud 90 power.

With awaken the pain: extra power 200 in shroudOut of shroud 290 (assuming 20 stacks might, which should be achievable)

With the optimal golem rotation you have 56% shroud uptime and are 44% of the time out of shroud.

So for both examples: assuming 20stacks might:

Signets trait:power in shroud: 20x30+270= 870Power out of shroud: 20x30+90= 690Average extra power: 870x0,56+690x0,44= 790,8 extra power.

Awaken the pain:in shroud: 20x40= 800Out of shroud: 20x40+90= 890Average extra power: 800x0,56+890x0,44= 839,6

So overall, awaken the pain will give you more extra power than signets of suffering.

But I guess now it really comes down to how long a fight is. If it's a really short fight, signets will be better, because you have higher power in shroud and hence a better burst. Shorter fights = higher shroud uptime.in longer fights, or if you can't achieve such a high shroud uptime, or if you have more might, awaken the pain is better for more sustained dps.Why so complicated?

You pick Awaken the Pain:

• Awaken the Pain does grant you +250 power all the time (if you can keep up 25 might!)
• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of shroud and +0 power in shroud.

You pick Signets of Suffering:

• Signet of Spite grants you +180 power out of Shroud and +270 power in shroud
• Signet of Vampirism deals ~200 dps in shroud (2x if two targets)

Result:

• Awaken the Pain: 250 more power out of shroud
• Signets of Suffering: 20 more power + 200 more dps in shroud

You deal a significant amount of your overal damage in shroud as you have +600 ferocity there and 100% crit chance. This relativizes the +250 power of AtP out of shroud. At the end of the day the damage difference is less than 1K. Considering the fact that Signets of Suffering is more consistent and improves survivability, this trait is often the better choice.

Only in short fights where you have a considerably higher shroud uptime than out of shroud time.

As you pointed out 20 more power and 200 dps. Extra 600 ferocity is 40% critdamage.

250 more power out of shroud is important if fights are dragged out.Sure if you can shroud burst > out of shroud rotation > shroud burst and the boss is dead then, yes signets trait is definetly better.I'm a hundred percent with you.

But for longer fights, awaken the pain is better as I already showed.It takes almost 2 minutes to kill the 4m health golem.And it's already a shroud uptime maximized build. Leaving you out of lifeforce as soon as the golem dies.In normal raid encounters I believe, that you cannot get to this amount of shroud uptime.In a normal pug group (raids), most bosses also take longer than 2 minutes to kill + there's incoming damage which will lower your shroud uptime (and not all bosses do have adds to refill lifeforce).So: in raids it's definetly awaken the pain that's better.

I'm not sure if this is true for fractals as well, I wasn't in there with good groups for a long time, so I don't have a feeling about the average time you need to kill bosses in fractals.

Most Fractal bosses have few transition phases where you can’t damage the boss (the others are generally very fast to defeat), often there are also few adds to kill in the meantime. So you often want to leave Shroud after the burst and repeat your Shroud burst as soon as the boss becomes vulnerable again.There is not a single long fight without those phases. Most things in Fractal (champions, groups of mobs) are also defeatable in 2-15 seconds. So, if playing properly the vast majority of the damage (and sometimes even “all” the damage, excluding the first second) is performed while in Shroud. That alone already makes Signets of Suffering generally superior compared to Awaken the Pain (in Fractal).

Anyway with Signets of Suffering is generally even more important to avoid taking damage while in Shroud (especially in long fights), when you know you won’t be able to do that Signet of Undeath can solve the problem.