Trait Ancient Seeds needs to be deleted from the game ASAP [ perma immob ranger]

[anduriell.6280]

It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one. A passive trait which triggers from any random daze and lock you down for 5 seconds.After the nerf to power damage the damn roots are tanky as hell. And meanwhile you soaking condi damage.

That trait has to go, a passive 10s immob every 10s in WVW is actually a perma immobilization. It is a extremely bad design and has no place in any passive trait. It's even worse than CI mirage.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ancient_Seeds

Players are complaining about entangle and other ranger skills, those aren't the issues. The issue is this trait. Even in sPvP can be problematic when you can be immob up to 7s every 20s. Passively. Add any skill with immob.

Delete Ancient seeds.

[Abyssisis.3971]

If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides. Edit: and CA skill 3.

[LughLongArm.5460]

@Abyssisis.3971 said:If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides.

I agree. It should work like that. They can even make it on daze only. It will be so much easier to apply the roots to several targets with CA 3+ CA 5. +1

[anduriell.6280]

@LughLongArm.5460 said:

@Abyssisis.3971 said:If I’m understanding the skill right, it triggers on any stun, daze, knock down and launches regardless of the source, all the Druid has to do is hit them? If that is the case, wouldn’t it be better to just change the skill to only trigger on stuns, dazes, knock downs and launches that the Druid inflicts, which would mean it would trigger on lb4, gs 5/4, spike trap, shortbow 5, oh axe 4, staff swap if traited, glyph of equality and tides.

I agree. It should work like that. They can even make it on daze only. It will be so much easier to apply the roots to several targets with CA 3+ CA 5. +1

Anything done to nerf the trait it would make it too niche to have any use. At that point just remove it and put a new one in its place.The roots effect can be given to Staff#4 (Vine surge) so the Druid can keep the CC potential. Active and clearly visible skill.

[Tanbin.2436]

do people actually use druid in wvw? delete a trait from all game modes because it overperforms in one? if it even overperforms? is it 20s icd in wvw like in pvp? if not make it like that in wvw?

that fixes it pretty much because it's literally useless in pvp and like you said if it's useless why bother with it. it would involve more dev time to add a GM to a class that is represented by almost nobody in pvp and only used in the PvE raid/fractal community. in their mind, druid is fine and balanced where it should be (PvE) and used a rare niche in pvp. almost ever meta class can cleanse immob consistently, even warrior can cleanse immob through movement skills and it's probably considered one of the worst classes in the game ATM. holo leap, dash thief, ws ranger, movement skills warrior, crev near perma resistance, any condi clear (esp if we're talking small scale and 1v1 where immob can be cleansed easily), etc etc... immob is annoying but it's not broken but like i said in pvp its a 20s icd so it may be different in WvW.

they won't just remove it, they'll just make it so bad that it's not even worth taking, which in anything outside of WvW (i dont play wvw so i cant even comment on this but given the average IQ of the wvw player it's most likely not good there either and people are just bad) isn't currently so i dont see why there needs to be a change. this most likely is not run in wvw zergs , probably roaming and gw2 doesn't balance around wvw roaming or 1v1 scenario.

and when i say useless pvp , i know some people will come in here and say "hey guys it works for me in pvp not my fault you're just not using it right!" ... no, against silvers/golds and low plat it CAN be done if your team is carrying. however, running it in inners with top players who actually have brains and pretty much focus druid immediately will destroy you.

have thoroughly tested multiple side node druid builds and support TF druid builds in top tier inners and tempest outperforms druid by miles with or without ancient seeds. side node will always have core ranger favor because of trait selection and like i said with TF druid , tempest always better.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

[Kolisch.4691]

Reduce duration stats you can just walk away before the next pulse. Vines just need to be sneezed at to kill and no more pulses unless they run some full condi junk. Teleport, movement skills that negate impaired movement conditions, skills that give you evade frames at the end of the pulse to make the pulse miss, I can go on and on but why bother if all the low quality posts never seem to demonstrate knowing all the counters to this and discuss why they're not enough.

[kiwituatara.6053]

Only if they improved Druid as a whole. Ancient Seed is an OP trait that’s carrying a bad elite spec.

[Lazze.9870]

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

I have been saying this for a while. It's a crutch. And while I think CC should be a part of Druid (as it is with the daze access), Ancient Seed was never a fun trait to use in any scenario (even if there is something to be said about ranger roots and that they don't really do much unless combined with other things like SpB bubbles). The problem is that Anet doesn't seem interested to make those real changes.

When I brought this up in the profession balance thread after the last balance, there were actual a few people claiming ranger would still have "plenty of utility" to do well in a zerg even if they removed/reduced the immob. Sure, both SB and Druid can do well and bring a few useful things, but compared to the meta professions they're not even close. There is no reason to bring a SB over a Herald if not for immob, and there is no reason to bring a druid over tempest/scrapper if not for immob. Played well enough, druid can get close on cleanses and do good healing, but it lacks all the other utilities scrapper and tempest brings (tempest auras, while scrapper is stacked with condi-to-boon conversion, reliable superspeed, reliable smoke blast for stealth etc).

In an alternative world, if they went back and did something as simple as giving ranger a Purity of Purpose-like trait (perhaps even instead of engie which is already stacked and in no need of that trait to still stay relevant) as a Nature Magic GM trait, replacing Invigorating Bond, while making Evasive Purity in the master tier apply cleanses to nearby allies as well, similar to Stop, Dodge and Roll for Eles*, Druid would have already been in a much better place without even touching the elite spec itself. I doubt Anet EVER even thought about it like that to begin with it. To me it comes of as if they are either purposefully excluding or just willfully ignoring druid in the wvw zerg conversation.

*The current version of Evasive Purity illustrates perfectly how Anet is reluctant to give ranger ally support with skills and traits that are similar to those we find on other professions. Making Druid more viable would be a lot easier if core ranger had a tad bit more utility to back up the support role. Ignoring Ancient Seeds, core ranger is what brings the strongest immobs. Without that, you have a mediocre support elite spec with pretty much nothing from the core class to back it up except from the odd skills out like Healing Spring and such. I don' think there is any way they're gonna buff druid to a level where it can excell in a support role independently of core ranger. That's not me asking for them to change the core ranger identity by giving it loads of support, but for Anet too look at the support traits/potential support traits in Nature Magic that are already there. Invigorating Bond is trash, needs to go, and be replaced by something good that doesn't rely on the pet.

[Lazze.9870]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

[Kodama.6453]

@Lazze.9870 said:

Engi and not in need of purity of purpose to stay relevant?That trait is almost entirely the reason why scrappers have a place in any game mode at all.

Scrappers are not performing well in PvP as far as I know and in PvE you see them literally never (except for the very niche case of giving perma superspeed to the tank in Forging Steel).

WvW is the only place scrapper is really relevant and that is because of it's strong condition to boon conversion. Take that away and scrappers will most likely go extinct in that game mode, too.

Druids have a place in the game as the best meta healers in PvE end game, every group that knows what they are doing will take a druid in their squad for raids or strikes.Let scrappers have their own niche in the game, please.

[Tanbin.2436]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Solo roaming, small squad , so probably... 1-2% of the wvw population now since they killed off roaming years ago? They don't balance around solo roaming, small squad - to be honest I'm not sure even what they balance around anymore at this point.

You condi cleanse immob - you don't just dodge. This is the ironic answer to your meme question.

If you're in solo and small scale that's consistent to cleanse because there's not a massive amount of cover happening but in large zergs I can see your point because there's a lot of cover condis from a bunch of other classes so immob might not get cleansed consistently , but on the flipside you have a massive amount of more condi clears as well.

I just really don't think with all the guardians and necro theres a lot of immob since both convert condi / transfer condi / cleanse consistently not to mention the stab share (ancient seeds triggered from being cc'd and it's not unblockable so aegis also counters it). Ancient seeds has many counters, not just after you get immob'd but before with stability prior to cc and aegis - again this is more controllable in small scale/solo roaming.

I mean I think it's a pointless conversation to have anyway since ranger is clearly not wvw zerg meta at ALL and hasn't been for a long time if ever in the history of zerg meta/large scale. There's not a meta option for ranger literally at all since they nerfed druid support into the ground. It was always a better roamer.

It's nothing in PvP and in PvE it does it's job.

I think to clarify my original post, if Ancient seeds isn't 20sec icd in WvW then it should be, that should make it useless and nobody will bother taking it and of course druid wouldn't get anything in return but be just a slightly worse roamer even though most just run soulbeast because it's a far better roamer just from talking with top rangers on wvw. This is how it is in PvP, 20sec icd and it's absolutely useless but again , this is small scale where ancient seeds is controlled much easier.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

We have, since before Druid even existed.

[ZipTaw.9841]

For those of you new to Arenanet mechanics, it will just be disabled in PvP, anybody that calls for a complete removal have got problems. This is the only Developer who seperates PvP and PvE. Any other developer puts PvE in the back seat because of the PvP whiners, it also sounds like you don't play said Ranger, so a removal wouldn't bother you like it would to those who actually use it in PvE. You could ask that it be disabled in PvP, but not in a WvW environment.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Ive been on may servers in WvW and do PvP and out of 100 encounters, maybe 4 are druid and 3.9/4 times its a condi druid (saw my 1st DPS druid in WvW the other day. Camped staff the whole fight. Didnt proc ancient seed and did good. Nearly crapped myself when I saw another DPS druid aside myself). It takes more skill to play DPS druid successively in WvW than condi, that I will admit. If you see Druids in large squads, id like to see it as its pretty rare to see druids in general, even rarer to see ones that are any good.

[Alexander.7694]

@anduriell.6280 said:It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one.

Stopped reading right there. Thief perma-stealth is not simply more unfun, it's totally broken, whenever I meet one I just don't bother anymore because they will just stealth and run anytime they want, that's how bad it is. They can even do finisher from stealth without chance to interrupt, its ridiculously OP.

When that's fixed, we can talk. Thanks for coming to our part of the forum

[DeceiverX.8361]

@Alexander.7694 said:

@anduriell.6280 said:It's difficult to find a more unfun trait to play against than that one.

Stopped reading right there. Thief perma-stealth is not simply more unfun, it's totally broken, whenever I meet one I just don't bother anymore because they will just stealth and run anytime they want, that's how bad it is. They can even do finisher from stealth without chance to interrupt, its ridiculously OP.

When that's fixed, we can talk. Thanks for coming to our part of the forum

Wolf f2 will interrupt.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

Wait, did I go back in time five years or did everyone that knew how to play WvW leave? Druid in WvW?! Ancient Seeds...OP....they haven't updated the skill since it came out in 2015 so it can't be that.

Can't every class besides other rangers not equipped with a stun break (i.e. lighting reflexes) easily break out of that? Otherwise you must think Entangle is the most OP Elite in the game, besides being able to literally walk out of it. Combine the two and you should win WvW (except you won't).

I haven't been around in a few years so I dunno if they nerfed boon ranger to the ground so bad that people reverted to using Druid, or if the OP maybe has never seen a Druid before and thought it was somehow OP...but let me tell you they're really not, in fact they're pretty terrible in WvW outside of groups. If you spec right you can survive and kite pretty good, but forget killing anything without a lot of knowledge about how it works, and that isn't your general WvWer.

[Substance E.4852]

Druid is actually good at something outside of heal botting raids and strikes

"Remove this immediately!"

This game is hopeless...

[Lazze.9870]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

Engi and not in need of purity of purpose to stay relevant?That trait is almost entirely the reason why scrappers have a place in any game mode at all.

Scrappers are not performing well in PvP as far as I know and in PvE you see them literally never (except for the

very

niche case of giving perma superspeed to the tank in Forging Steel).

WvW is the only place scrapper is really relevant and that is because of it's strong condition to boon conversion. Take that away and scrappers will most likely go extinct inDruids have a place in the game as the best meta healers in PvE end game, every group that knows what they are doing will take a druid in their squad for raids or strikes.Let scrappers have their own niche in the game, please.

First of all, that's is completely wrong. Scrappers would still be viable in blob fights because of the cleansing numberes, regardless if they convert those condis to boons, their access to group superspeed and their stealth gyro for stealthing. Their healing is also very strong. You won't necessarily want one in nearly every subparty, but you still want a fair amount of them.

Second of all, I'm not advocating taking Purity of Purpose away from engies, I'm saying that by doing that and nothing else, the playing field would be a lot more equal than what it currently is. Just playing with the idea. It's not like it's going to happen anyways.

Druid being good for ONE part of ONE game mode is not a good excuse for anything. Scrapper has performed better in PvP recently than what Druid has.

[Lazze.9870]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

Makes no sense?

The point is that the MORE YOU TURN THE DIAL DOWN ON THE DAMAGE, THE GREATER ADVANTAGE YOU GIVE LARGER NUMBERS. That's a fact.

Your survival is tied to your positioning and your team supports. And your callouts.

You have to be mobile all the time, fish out for bombs, kite bubbles, counter bomb. You're making that whole ordeal even more tedious if your dial down the damage even further. The smaller groups have to endure longer without making mistakes, while the larger group can afford making mistakes. They don't care about losing a couple of guys, but for a smaller group that might be detrimental.

You think lower damage is gonna make you survive better? To an extent, but even more so it's gonna make it easier for larger groups to peel of the small group's damage.

And no, I'm not saying dragon banners are good for the game. They shouldn't exist at all. Not because they do damage, but because of the WAY they do damage.I'm saying you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game mode and the current meta compared to the last one if you think mass lowering damage across the board is gonna make it easier for smaller organized groups to take out larger zergs. You're gonna make it a slugfest.

The fact that I even have to argue about this just reminds me that I'm wasting my time. I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I play in an organized wvw guild in the higher wvw tiers on EU and the consensus from all the top commanders and guilds are that the current meta favor larger numbers compared to the meta before the huge damage nerfs. "Splashing your aoes's randomly around" is something I'd bet you're struggling with a bit more than what I am. Get real.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Lazze.9870 said:

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"iKagura.1903" said:do people actually use druid in wvw?

Yes. Solo roaming, small squad, large squad. Yes.

What is the meme reply to any complaint of a skill doing too much damage? jUsT dOdGe!

Well, what if you can't....

Ranger immob didn't get more powerful or anything, it's just that before it wasn't necessary because damage was so high - you didn't need to lock a person in place to burn them down when all you need to do was press about 3-4 buttons in quick succession.

CC's are part of the game, but immobs are just obnoxious, and Druid immob is the worst of the lot by far. Does that make Druid in any way OP - of course not. Just the most obnoxious CC in the game.

I get that players are happy for a reason to play Druid in WvW, but you don't want this crutch to be that reason. Demand real changes/reworks.

Not moving for two seconds shouldn't be a death sentence. Nerf damage.

The more you nerf damage, the stronger you make group numbers. Before, and still now to a lesser extent, you could outplay larger groups. If you nerf damage too much, you end up with larger groups being able to hold W with little thought and win a fight solely because they're larger.

That makes no sense. If you are up against greater numbers, the greater chance you have of surviving if they cannot kill you if you make a single mistake or get caught by an immob. As it is now, you can just be deleted from the game instantly if you catch a halfway decent bomb. Sometimes I don't even get a downstate because they just dropped literally 200,000 DPS on me.

You still have your ability to outplay with lower damage, you just need to focus your attacks better, not just splash AoE over as great an area as possible and rely on their blob size to run over it all. Having lower damage requires you to outplay them.

What you're saying is like "Dragon Banners are good for the game because a small group can use one or two against a zerg to defend". But what about when the attacking zerg brings 4 with them? It doesn't matter how well you outplay because with 4 banners, 15 Scourges, 15 Burn guards and lots of support, they are going to make the floor lava.

Makes no sense?

The point is that the MORE YOU TURN THE DIAL DOWN ON THE DAMAGE, THE GREATER ADVANTAGE YOU GIVE LARGER NUMBERS. That's a fact.

Your survival is tied to your positioning and your team supports. And your callouts.

You have to be mobile all the time, fish out for bombs, kite bubbles, counter bomb. You're making that whole ordeal even more tedious if your dial down the damage even further. The smaller groups have to endure longer without making mistakes, while the larger group can afford making mistakes. They don't care about losing a couple of guys, but for a smaller group that might be detrimental.

You think lower damage is gonna make you survive better? To an extent, but even more so it's gonna make it easier for larger groups to peel of the small group's damage.

And no, I'm not saying dragon banners are good for the game. They shouldn't exist at all. Not because they do damage, but because of the WAY they do damage.I'm saying you have a fundamental lack of understanding of the game mode and the current meta compared to the last one if you think mass lowering damage across the board is gonna make it easier for smaller organized groups to take out larger zergs. You're gonna make it a slugfest.

The fact that I even have to argue about this just reminds me that I'm wasting my time. I don't want to sound like "that guy", but I play in an organized wvw guild in the higher wvw tiers on EU and the consensus from all the top commanders and guilds are that the current meta favor larger numbers compared to the meta before the huge damage nerfs. "Splashing your aoes's randomly around" is something I'd bet you're struggling with a bit more than what I am. Get real.

That cannot be true, because the opposite is also not true. If you turn the damage all the way up, until 5 AAs will kill someone, it still favors higher numbers because of attrition and the amount of force they can bring to bear on any particular area.

You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

[Lazze.9870]

@"Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582" said:You're right about one thing though, you are wasting your time.

Don't even try it. You're humerous enough with your "logical conclusions".

Let me dumb this down for you. Higher damage gives the smaller group a better opportunity to punish larger groups harder, yet still survive when played well. Lower damage on the other hand, makes it easier for said large group to sustain the smaller group's bomb. The smaller group shouldn't try and sustain any of it to begin with, even when it becomes eaiser with overall less damage. If someone in the smaller group has bad positioning, that person should be punished by the larger group if focused properly. Not because of damage levels, but because of the share amount of people targeting him/her.

Congrats on figuring out that damage dialed way up equals more concentrated damage on the spot when you drop a bomb. First of all; there is a little bit more to WvW than that, and second of all; I'm not advocating more damage, I am arguing your suggestion to lower it even further.