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Thief Rifle SPvP Issue


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@Bazsi.2734 said:

You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.
  • de can do somthing in 1v1, but it depends on where, what cooldowns will u have, etc. U will never kill a mirage, ranger and some dp thief - all of these guys can be ur same skill lvl with u or a bit lower, that doesnt matter-. U can also be kited by weaver pretty long and be killed too.

Doing something is hardly ever worth it unless you get a kill out of that "something" within seconds. Reliance on stealth means you cannot hold points, even contesting them is pretty hard over a longer period of time.
  • de has no damage potential in pvp, cuz we talking about pvp.It does, I even listed the main components and modifiers you can cram into a build currently, did you even read it?It has better sustain than dp, but burst damage lower than pd condi. To provide damage u need need hit with 2 skills (crit gives doublemalice) and 3 if u have m7 what is played more oftenly, cuz it gives much more sustain compared to bqobk(+ malicious intent that gives u 1 malice when u used mark). And this trait is completely useless, cuz u have to pick one in chamber to have more stealth access, i hope nooneneeded here to explain why stealth is so important to thieves. SO, this is all that i have said is to land 1 dj, that will hit for 10k (with full m7 and if u not dead yet to enemies that have no tooughness modifier or protection). all u can do during 2.5 secs using bqobk is to hit some 3rb but ofc u wont hit with it. Cuz in current state everyone do at least dodgeroll or pressing block after u land a mark, and u ll stay kneeled down with all ur burst stuff and w8 until block ends, or just miss with all skills and waste all of ur initiative. U wont kill anyone with these 2.5 secs or do some worthy impact. Other ur burst if u have assasin signet with stacked modifiers wont be able to land, cuz u have to play defensively and dat necro fore example (who is easiest target) will spam u fear/condies/chills or put shroud. And im not telling anything about magnetic auras, scourge barriers and fb's sphere that does reflect to u. Using bers+scholar = instakill for enemy thief, that will just fear u throught landing backstab + heartseeker, allmost instakill for enemy mirage, oneshot from enemy pew pew soulbeast, guaranteed kill for enemy rev. As u can see, at all variants ur combat will be long, and bqobk was taken to land fast burst earlier, before patch to land some heavy damage and then finish that guy. Now all what u can do is just waste ur initiative and land some random 2.3k bullet, or 3.5k dj cuz u wont have all 5/7 malice for good dj.

Ah yes, DE is really hard to play when you pick the wrong traits and do subpar combos.

De's main problem is slowness.Look up what Meld with Shadows does. Shadow Arts is mandatory.He gains secondary resourse too ling to land some worthy strike at the moment u need, and also de has no unblokable strikes/interrupts to deal with some rangers, interrupt guardians hea;, it has only stealth and shadowstep as save skill, and some ok sustain, not good not bad, just ok. De is good for cutting noobs, on higher mmr u will be hardly punished for every time u left stealth.

Well I guess I just imagine being top 100 with it. I must be quite delusional. After all you cannot pewpew once a reflecting dome or swirling winds goes up on mid, so that match is pretty much over I guess.
  • And yes, de is useless, u just need one of: tempest, rev, hfb, or healscg (metasupps) and u wont be able to kill someone earlier than ur mates die. If de had potential someone would play it, but none of p2+ does,

Again, guess I don't exist.

de just a meme and taken for fun, what is rare at g3+. U could carry a game with this build before feb patch, but not now. Sadly, but i love playing sniper, and take it sometimes when we lack of sustain in team, but it easily countered, espesially if enemies can rotate. U can play prorely and just got smashed by some mirage + dp thief that has far more mobility than u for +1.

For some reason, this is not just your opinion, almost everyone thinks this way. Either they are too lazy to properly learn DE, or I'm a uniquely gifted PvP god. As much as I want to think it's the latter, reality is people just don't want to put in effort into a lame looking pew-pew. Just say you don't want to play it.

I don't want to play it. In fact I don't want it to exist.Wake me up from this nightmare.

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@Lighter.5631 said:

@Lighter.5631 said:stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxictry warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

now you are just pulling BS out of your kitten.i play DE exclusively in wvw for how risk free it is, DE easily be double the sustain a rifle warrior has.

Yes, the class that has far less health, less armour, worse healing, no sustained healing, no blocks, no extra evades, no partial invulnerability or anything of the sort has more sustain than Rifle Warrior. Riiiiight.

clearly you have no idea what you talking about either DE nor killshot warrior.

Oh no, I do. But you? You clearly dont. I mean jeez, talk about being smug while being uninformed.

when you are a squishy build, no amount of healing/evade will save you from being focused except mobility and stealth.

Stealth will not save you at all. Blocks, partial invulnerability, and general tankiness however will. As for mobility, on flat ground Warrior has Thief beat.

heres a recommendation, before you ever make comparsion, try them.

I have. Here is a recommendation: Listen to your own advice. You will find that when playing DE, any mobile or ranged class just messes you the hell up. And you will find that those happen to be most of them. Warrior can handle being jumped by another thief, a Rev, even a Mesmer, or being countersniped by a Longbow ranger, a dragonhunter or whatever. A thief cannot.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

You mentioned that 1v1 ability for the spec is bad. It's because DE has insane damage potential. Berserkers amulet, scholar runes, separation sigil, assassin signet, BQoBK... it's not that hard to stack all your modifiers which result in a 2.5 second window where you can land enough damage to down anything short of a full shroud necromancer. The "skill" involved is knowing when to land the burst, and how to force windows where the enemy is vulnerable to it.DJ used to be unblockable, it was taken away during the nerfs gradually tuning all overperforming specs down. At the time it was unfair, now it definitely isn't. DE-s real tradeoff is getting better(and ranged) damage at the cost of reliance on stealth+projectiles, with lessened mobility. An unblockable DJ would bypass half of this tradeoff, and would make DE far too OP - especially on lower ratings.

People saying DE is underpowered can't play it properly. It works for me just fine.
  • de can do somthing in 1v1, but it depends on where, what cooldowns will u have, etc. U will never kill a mirage, ranger and some dp thief - all of these guys can be ur same skill lvl with u or a bit lower, that doesnt matter-. U can also be kited by weaver pretty long and be killed too.

Doing something is hardly ever worth it unless you get a kill out of that "something" within seconds. Reliance on stealth means you cannot hold points, even contesting them is pretty hard over a longer period of time.

dunno who are u playing against, but if u wont stealth up and kite around u gonna be dead, seems like ur opponents had a broken keyboard.

  • de has no damage potential in pvp, cuz we talking about pvp.It does, I even listed the main components and modifiers you can cram into a build currently, did you even read it?

and i answered to u about what u listened, seems like u didnd understand that

It has better sustain than dp, but burst damage lower than pd condi. To provide damage u need need hit with 2 skills (crit gives doublemalice) and 3 if u have m7 what is played more oftenly, cuz it gives much more sustain compared to bqobk(+ malicious intent that gives u 1 malice when u used mark). And this trait is completely useless, cuz u have to pick one in chamber to have more stealth access, i hope nooneneeded here to explain why stealth is so important to thieves. SO, this is all that i have said is to land 1 dj, that will hit for 10k (with full m7 and if u not dead yet to enemies that have no tooughness modifier or protection). all u can do during 2.5 secs using bqobk is to hit some 3rb but ofc u wont hit with it. Cuz in current state everyone do at least dodgeroll or pressing block after u land a mark, and u ll stay kneeled down with all ur burst stuff and w8 until block ends, or just miss with all skills and waste all of ur initiative. U wont kill anyone with these 2.5 secs or do some worthy impact. Other ur burst if u have assasin signet with stacked modifiers wont be able to land, cuz u have to play defensively and dat necro fore example (who is easiest target) will spam u fear/condies/chills or put shroud. And im not telling anything about magnetic auras, scourge barriers and fb's sphere that does reflect to u. Using bers+scholar = instakill for enemy thief, that will just fear u throught landing backstab + heartseeker, allmost instakill for enemy mirage, oneshot from enemy pew pew soulbeast, guaranteed kill for enemy rev. As u can see, at all variants ur combat will be long, and bqobk was taken to land fast burst earlier, before patch to land some heavy damage and then finish that guy. Now all what u can do is just waste ur initiative and land some random 2.3k bullet, or 3.5k dj cuz u wont have all 5/7 malice for good dj.

Ah yes, DE is really hard to play when you pick the wrong traits and do subpar combos.

he is not, all that hardiness comes from rifle and projectile block.

De's main problem is slowness.Look up what Meld with Shadows does. Shadow Arts is mandatory.i was not talking about its moving on a map, i told about executing mechanics to deal damage. And yes, meld in shadows requiers wasting initiative or cooldowns for stealth, so u just can be killed by random guy cuz u have nothing to escape.

He gains secondary resourse too ling to land some worthy strike at the moment u need, and also de has no unblokable strikes/interrupts to deal with some rangers, interrupt guardians hea;, it has only stealth and shadowstep as save skill, and some ok sustain, not good not bad, just ok. De is good for cutting noobs, on higher mmr u will be hardly punished for every time u left stealth.

Well I guess I just imagine being top 100 with it. I must be quite delusional. After all you cannot pewpew once a reflecting dome or swirling winds goes up on mid, so that match is pretty much over I guess.already checked u, and there is noone at top 250 with nickname like u have here.
  • And yes, de is useless, u just need one of: tempest, rev, hfb, or healscg (metasupps) and u wont be able to kill someone earlier than ur mates die. If de had potential someone would play it, but none of p2+ does,

Again, guess I don't exist.

yep, seems like

de just a meme and taken for fun, what is rare at g3+. U could carry a game with this build before feb patch, but not now. Sadly, but i love playing sniper, and take it sometimes when we lack of sustain in team, but it easily countered, espesially if enemies can rotate. U can play prorely and just got smashed by some mirage + dp thief that has far more mobility than u for +1.

For some reason, this is not just your opinion, almost everyone thinks this way. Either they are too lazy to properly learn DE, or I'm a uniquely gifted PvP god. As much as I want to think it's the latter, reality is people just don't want to put in effort into a lame looking pew-pew. Just say you don't want to play it.

ow, so u was trolling me about de, sry, i thought we had a serious discussion. Actually i love de, and everything i telling u is based on situtations i was in.

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Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

Leave it where it is. DE is not hard to play. An easy, high damage spec that can contest you from 1500r away and doesn't have to commit to any fight shouldn't be encouraged by being anywhere close to standalone.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

Leave it where it is. DE is not hard to play. An easy, high damage spec that can contest you from 1500r away and doesn't have to commit to any fight shouldn't be encouraged by being anywhere close to standalone.

1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 range. Kneeling is actively detrimental, so you never kneel. And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 rangeYou're right. I had ranger ptsd.And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.You're wrong. That's not what that means at all.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

Perch on a box and take potshots at a sidenode until your opponent is frustrated while they're fighting an ally, immob them for free? If they chase you immediately leave, then come back?What about that is easy to shut down?

It's performing fine as an add. You make it any easier and I can assure you at best only Deadeye and at worst every thief spec will be back at square -1 very quickly

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:1200 range. Deadeye has 1200 rangeYou're right. I had ranger ptsd.And actually, they would have to commit to a fight, since they have to use initiative to stack up malice, meaning their escape is locked out.You're wrong. That's not what that means at all.

It does, actually. They got Shadowstep, but every class has that kind of "oh crap" button. But their regular avenue of escape, shortbow 5? Bit hard to use that, if you aint got initiative.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Deadeye needs to be relegated to +1. If its kit allows it to approach 1v1 potential with the kind of damage modifiers and stealth access thief has built into its core, we're going to have major issues.

Thats the thing though, its not even good at +1ing. Way too easy to shut down.

Perch on a box and take potshots at a sidenode until your opponent is frustrated, immob them for free? If they chase you immediately leave, then come back?What about that is easy to shut down?

So, you had to take time to find and climb on a spot they cant immediately fight back from, and then you .. dont even do much? Not to mention that any projectile reflect, any blocks, any enemy that has ranged attacks and any high mobility classes can in fact easily shut that down. And uh, thats all of them. Ranger just rapid fires you or knocks you off, Holo tosses nades at you, Condi Rev has his options, and so on.

It's performing fine as an add. You make it any easier and I can assure you at best only Deadeye and at worst every thief spec will be back at square -1 very quickly

Is it? Ive last seen a Deadeye in ranked that performed well in .... 2018, I think? All of the ones Ive seen since then are just way worse thieves.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxictry warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

"Blocks, evades, and decent healing"?

First of all: a killshot warrior probably is using a GS for a swap weapon.

2nd: I didn't know only warrior can evade.

3rd: "Decent healing doesn't save you, where as deadeye heal literally gives you free disengage because of shadow arts.

4: Warrior does not have better mobility in combat

5: what do you think happens to the warrior after 3 seconds of endure pain if he gets ganked?

Thief by far has the best disengage free. And if you get revealed you literally have an elite skill that can unreveal.. Twice.

And even in the direct 1 vs 1 rifle battle you have free smokescreen to block projectiles.

The only risk is you not knowing the tools the class you claim you play has.

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@TeqkOneStylez.8047 said:

@"Lighter.5631" said:stealth/teleport on a ranged nuke will never be a thing, because it's just toxictry warrior killshot, the real sniper with real risks. DE has basically 0 risk.

Ironically of the 2, DE has far more risk. Killshot warrior is still Warrior, a class with blocks evades and decent healing. If a thief, a rev or any other mobile class jumps on you, or another ranged class attacks you, you can manage. If the same happens to a DE? He is dead unless he burns shadowstep.

"Blocks, evades, and decent healing"?

First of all: a killshot warrior probably is using a GS for a swap weapon.

Right, it doesnt have a block. So its just evades.

2nd: I didn't know only warrior can evade.

Oh a lot of classes can evade well. DE is ... not one of them. The only evade it has is shortbow 3, and its not that good.

3rd: "Decent healing doesn't save you, where as deadeye heal literally gives you free disengage because of shadow arts.

It does. And Deadeyes heal (I assume you mean HiS, since thats what thief usually uses nowadays) is not a "free disengage" at all. It still doesnt stop the mobile burst classes from bursting you.

4: Warrior does not have better mobility in combat

Define "mobility in combat". Because DE has no mobility you use other than when moving around the map out of combat, or trying to run away. Deaths Retreat is really really bad. And if you mean "when using to run away", depends on elevation. If there is a cliff or other incline to port up, thief wins. If its flat ground? Warrior wins.

5: what do you think happens to the warrior after 3 seconds of endure pain if he gets ganked?

If he doesnt manage to run away, he dies. What do you think happens to thief 3 seconds earlier, if he gets ganked? Spoiler: Same thing. Only faster.

Thief by far has the best disengage free. And if you get revealed you literally have an elite skill that can unreveal.. Twice.

Stealth is awful at disengaging. Shortbow 5 is great, but when you aint got the initiative to use it, well, thats that. And again, Warrior has Greatswords mobility.

And even in the direct 1 vs 1 rifle battle you have free smokescreen to block projectiles.

Its not "free" at all. It forces you to kneel (which is really bad) and costs a lot of initiative without progressing Malificent 7 (which is also really bad). And it doesnt even really save you against the mobile classes. Hell, a good engineer just throws the grenades below it so that the AoE hits you.

The only risk is you not knowing the tools the class you claim you play has.

I never claimed I play Deadeye actively? I played it a bit a while ago, and I play it in WvW for dailies because its the only class I got up to date PvE gear on. Its similar to thief. If you can use shortbow 5 to run away, youre good. If you cant, youre going to die. And as Deadeye, well, quite often you dont have the initiative to use Shortbow 5.

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@"Luclinraider.2317" said:I really think DJ receiving Unbloackable, Penetration, or both, would make Rifle a much more viable spec in PvP. Even if it needs to be added into a talent tree. Heck, my opinion would be to rework Collateral Damage. It's a trait that is used in no build, in any area of the game. Change this to "Death's Judgement gains Unblockable and Penetration". It would take away from Thief's Damage Ability by not being able to take Malicious Intent, but provide more utility by rendering DJ actually viable to use.What do you guys think the issue with DE is?

I couldn’t agree more. Just in arctic sniper rifle in CounterStrike, one shot one kill. Max penetration! Max damage!

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You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

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@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

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Perhaps DJ should not be balanced around...I assume this is a bug of some sort?

Either way even w/out the sound the attack is blatantly trivial to mitigate. DE doesn't exactly have much room for skills that lock other players down. Stealth/Kneel -> Kneeling rifle2 -> DJ only works at a certain distance, IIRC, and that makes the skill even MORE predictable. Oh goodness gracious the DE went into stealth after hitting me a couple times what could they possibly be up to :O

Switching out a pretty meh trait for unblockable would be a decent tradeoff.

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@Curennos.9307 said:Perhaps DJ should not be balanced around...I assume this is a bug of some sort?

Either way even w/out the sound the attack is blatantly trivial to mitigate. DE doesn't exactly have much room for skills that lock other players down. Stealth/Kneel -> Kneeling rifle2 -> DJ only works at a certain distance, IIRC, and that makes the skill even MORE predictable. Oh goodness gracious the DE went into stealth after hitting me a couple times what could they possibly be up to :O

Switching out a pretty meh trait for unblockable would be a decent tradeoff.

We all know they are up to use DJ, but it's not like there's any punishment for using it? Just try again over and over until your target runs out of sustain.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

"Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

"Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

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@Shao.7236 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

"Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

Man you really should learn to quit when the fact that you dont know the class youre talking about has become clear. Its not even close to "full damage". Somewhere between 70-90% of DEs damage is skirmishers shot off of maleficent seven. DJ is more of a hindrance than a benefit. Hence why your suggestion is a buff. Also, DE doesnt have access to permastealth without switching weapons, and at that point they cant even use DJ. They also dont have the ability to shadowstep back and forth at all (other than by using Shadowstep, which they can do once per fight).

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Shao.7236 said:You can legit use DJ over and over, there's only 2 evades base, just setup a CC it's not that hard when you can daze through stability by stealing it with quickness, attacks being so fast the sound queues don't even match for a proper evade.

And they have more than just evades to stop your DJ. You on the other hand run out of stealth faster than they run out of anti-DJ options, and thats ignoring that they can just, yknow, fight back and kill you? Daze doesnt stop them from dodging. And quickness isnt used, the trait is just significantly worse than Maleficent seven. And even with quickness its easily avoided.

What are you on right now?

Its a little something called "reality". You might want to try it, helps not being stuck in a fantasy land where Deadeyes actually get to hit DJs and use the quickness trait.

That's implying they use mug? They can steal quickness, my point was that animations don't follow sound queues, this ain't fantasy land. I got actual footage of it.

Ignoring that they obviously use mug, any quickness they steal runs out before they can use DJ, unless they skip stacking malice, but then DJ doesnt do damage, soooo. And even with quickness the bright orange line remains. Even if the sound were to desync (though thats the first time Ive heard of that. There was a bug where stealth itself desyncs and the telegraph appears after the attack hits, but I havent seen that in a while).

It's long enough to mess up the feedback, not like it's hard to F1 and press 1 right away, add a shadowstep to disorient even more. Doesn't matter how hard DJ hits as it costs nothing, it's easy to manage Malice when you can sit back left and right safely at +1200 to determine if small bursts of 5k are better than just putting it all in one because the target doesn't know how much Malice there is until it's maxed out with it's vague effect or assumption that "enough damage" was done. It's baiting constantly on a short reveal while the 3 round burst can possibly do the work, following a better DJ as you can easily count the sustain of a class as they try to live through. Without any consistent reveal to outdo a /good/ DE, they cannot be really stomped through any clever play whatsoever and the damage is saved through baiting, add the double marking that denies ANY nullification to the Rifle 2 or ranged CC. Messed up? Perma port/stealth away, random DJ spam 2 after, it's not like you won't have your Malice since you never lose it until a time out, if that DJ is dodged, still have all your Malice, no damage lost after who knows how many proper DJ dodges/blocks.

Again, if they dont stack malice, thats just not a hard hitting attack at all. Lets say they do that. Steal quickness, and immediately use DJ. The DJ then hits for, hm. 3k-ish? Ok, thats nothing. And then? You say its easy to sit safely at +1200 (I assume you mean just 1200 range here, because kneeling is never used), but you do know other classes with 1200 range exist, right? And classes with mobility to quickly catch up to you? They can and will kill you. Your complete lack of knowledge on DE hurts you again, because Three-Round-Burst is not used at all. Kneeling is trash, you use skirmishers shot. You dont need reveal to kill a DE at all. They can easily be stomped by any half-decent player (Thats why you dont see them be played), and it seems you think they always have max initiative to do whatever they want, but also use their initiative for offense.

TD;LR Malice shouldn't be kept if missing the stealth attack. The utility available is already strong enough to compensate for mistakes. If not for malice consumption. Reveal should be 5 seconds like ALL other skills.

"Yeah good job taking an underpowered class and nerfing it further for no actual reason" is what I would usually say. Except ... Im not even sure this is a nerf. Actually this is probably a major buff. Once again your complete lack of knowledge bites you. See, the correct way to play DE is to use maleficent seven, and just spam skirmishers shot until you get the proc. The problem is that then, you would want to hit a DJ to reset malice, but against a half-decent player you dont get to hit a DJ. But with your suggestion? Just burn the DJ into thin air, cancel it, then use skirmishers shot again until youre at max malice. It makes the class way more effective.

It's a complete lack of knowledge to avoid over 6+ DJ's and yet still keep the ability to deal full damage on a class that can recover in perma stealth and shadowstep back and forth. Just tank everything else that cause damages, even though it deals just as much over time sitting around.

Man you really should learn to quit when the fact that you dont know the class youre talking about has become clear. Its not even close to "full damage". Somewhere between 70-90% of DEs damage is skirmishers shot off of maleficent seven. DJ is more of a hindrance than a benefit. Hence why your suggestion is a buff. Also, DE doesnt have access to permastealth without switching weapons, and at that point they cant even use DJ. They also dont have the ability to shadowstep back and forth at all (other than by using Shadowstep, which they can do once per fight).

Having to build up damage again is far from a buff, it actually gives people skills value in not getting constantly hit, that's like when you said shortbow 4 from before is more powerful, it ain't because of it's predictability and time taken.

I can easily mitigate the dazes knowing that they are because of the poison, not because of a nearly unpredictable unblockable aoe at their feet. Nothing says it's 2 or 4. Wasting all the initiative to keep a down down with poison will only put the thief in a bad position if the resser can take the cleave.

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