Toughness should be a deterant to conditions

[Sovereign.1093]

In the old days we didnt have issues with condi because food was 40% condi duration reduction and runes was 40% condi duration reduction.

Remember the days of safron bread?

Maybe return anti condi gear to these setup again or cap condi. :)

Also condi right now has little to no counter gear wise.

Vitality is fine but, the amount of hp damage you get is literally like receiving a warriors hundred blades on full zerk with max quickness

Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

[Dawdler.8521]

Sure, if you delete vitality and cleanses from the game.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Dawdler.8521 said:Sure, if you delete vitality and cleanses from the game.

Please read the post :)

[geist.4126]

And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

[rng.1024]

We literally can craft a sigil that cleanse 3 condis ever 10 seconds for free - how on earth is conditions an issue?

This is definitely an l2p issue, as anyone who do sPvP will tell you it's easily dealt with here. If you get hit by a 2 people condibomb, you should go down no question about it if you don't have an oh no button. If your issue is with a specific spec, then post it in the profession forum to get pointers and practice fighting against it often. Usually it's either your hard counter or your build needs improvement.

WvW always was a PvE sandbox, we live and die by fractal/raid balance.

[Sovereign.1093]

@geist.4126 said:And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

How is this related to toughness and condition?

@rng.1024 said:We literally can craft a sigil that cleanse 3 condis ever 10 seconds for free - how on earth is conditions an issue?

This is definitely an l2p issue, as anyone who do sPvP will tell you it's easily dealt with here. If you get hit by a 2 people condibomb, you should go down no question about it if you don't have an oh no button. If your issue is with a specific spec, then post it in the profession forum to get pointers and practice fighting against it often. Usually it's either your hard counter or your build needs improvement.

WvW always was a PvE sandbox, we live and die by fractal/raid balance.

How is this related to toughness?

[Aeolus.3615]

Besides support ministrels every one else is condi bunker mostly burn based.

I guess is time to test a perma resistance bunker(2k power,3k toughness, hight vit, perma resistance large group stacking) setup, maybe the condi noobs will QQ and then we can say... that's l2p issue.

@Sovereign.1093 the condition issue is the burn bursting(burn is overperforming we all know that)... thats what needs to get adressed while some also say 8-10k burn tick is balance(they are being carried ofc they dont want it removed)...

Small note:Outside burn, imo only perma daze builds and CC need to be observed for future changes, but ATM Anet needs to focus on burn ticks check up.macro + package editing mesmers(fore sure some do this) need to be fixed, but the fix for it, i fear that would gut the class :( so its a hard fix classes that are easilly to macroable.

[Moradorin.6217]

@Sovereign.1093 said:In the old days we didnt have issues with condi because food was 40% condi duration reduction and runes was 40% condi duration reduction.

Remember the days of safron bread?

Maybe return anti condi gear to these setup again or cap condi. :)

Also condi right now has little to no counter gear wise.

Vitality is fine but, the amount of hp damage you get is literally like receiving a warriors hundred blades on full zerk with max quickness

Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

Ok so ppl say this stuff from time to time. Basically, what you need to do is use more than one build or modify your build to integrate some condi cleansing into it, usually at the cost of some damage output. Some players choose to bring allot of cleanse and have no problem with condi, others dont and die much faster to condi than those who prepare to deal with it..

[Voltekka.2375]

Superior rune of Orr: 25% condi duration reductionVarious foods: 20% condi duration reduction

I mean, seriously, you need more than that? With all the cleansing utilities and sigils and traits, too?

[Dagger.2035]

Vitality should be thought of as the primary defensive stat and it provides the best defense against both Power and Condition damage. Toughness and Healing Power should be considered minor defensive stats which give you more sustain over time.

If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

This change serves two purposes. First, it simplifies damage calculations on the server since you don’t need the enemy player’s stats to calculate the damage. Second, it allows you to see how much damage you will receive since high Condition damage builds will apply more stacks.

[Doug.4930]

Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

[Korgov.7645]

@Doug.4930 said:Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

Condi is nigh useless against large groups due shared cleansing. Perhaps cleanses could be made self only, which would give room tuning down condi damage in overall.

Even in small scale conditions rarely get all their ticks. This makes Expertise less valuable and drives condi builds to use Dire only - the tankiness wins due attrition.

Toning down the sigil and rune would be a no brainer.

Then looking at how most cleanse skills have power creeped to cleanse multiple conditions. Making them cleanse only a single condition would allow to make each condition more significant and allow reducing the rate of condi applications. The choice of what and when to apply/cleanse would make the condi gameplay more dramatic over the current spamfest.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

no.you shouldn't be able to stack condi vital and tough tho all on one stat combo.

[Korgov.7645]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:no.you shouldn't be able to stack condi vital and tough tho all on one stat combo.

What else would condi player have on their gear? Critical chance that would turn conditions uncleansable? Ferocity that would multiply condition durations?

[Sovereign.1093]

Ok ppl seem to misunderstand. Condi only needs condi damage to kill. And there is effectively no counter stat to it unlike power where If your toughness is high and your vit, you can tank long.

A person running Pvt if hit with condi will go down fast.

Unlike a person running dire will not go down fast from power damage.

It's not about the skill itself etc or the rune or sigils or food. This is about making defense against condi more than just vitality

[nthmetal.9652]

But there is defense against condi. It is called condi cleanse. Learn to use it, slot it, and condi is not really a problem.

Generally I would agree that the difference between how condi works and how power works and how to defend against them, is a problem that should be tackled in the design of things instead of through skills.

[Infusion.7149]

Scrapper, aura tempest , and condi mallyx rev exist (Permeating Pestilence , resistance from Pain absorption) as well as scourges (barrier and condi transfer via staff).

There's some overperforming builds but conditions in general aren't that strong in a large group. In lower playercount scenarios you might be able to get burning to stick with firebrand ; I'm surprised permeating wrath hasn't had a small ICD added similar to dhuumfire when traited with scourge. Guardian doesn't have as many cover conditions so that is probably why in addition to lower condition damage if not running power+precision due to trait conversions.

Someone mentioned condi thief, but that is more to do with PvP than WvW and has very little burst outside of thieves guild / venoms after deadly ambition was changed a while back. Condi mirage (one dodge meme) and druid also aren't that amazing. Outside staff or axe ambush/pistol Phantasmal Duelist for mirage or bonfire/traps in the case of druid if they run torch offhand the condis ramp up slowly.

A person running dire loses duration already, so ultimately you're talking about condition ticks from burning or torment (while moving) since poison and bleeding need quite a few stacks to reach the same potency. Boon corruption converts aegis to burning and regen to poison so any well of corruption type of coordinated bomb is going to skew towards having conditions.

Condition damage scaling per stack , per second:

• Burning = (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 = 363.5 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 425.5 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 15% bonus from Amplified Wrath)
• Torment, while moving in PvP/WvW = (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 = 166.8 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 202.8 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 10% bonus from Acolyte of Torment)
• Poison = (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 = 123.5 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 147.5 per second at 1900 condition damage (before 25% bonus from Poison Master or 15% from Putrid Defense)
• Bleeding = (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 = 112 per second at 1500 condition damage ; 136 per second at 1900 condition damage (before Hidden Barbs 33% bonus or Heartpiercer 25% bonus)

[Jski.6180]

Maybe there needs to be a protection vs condi dmg a -33% dmg taken from condis. I do not think toughness should counter 2 dmg types effects power and condi dmg but there for sure room to add in counter condi dmg effects.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@"Sovereign.1093" said:It's not about the skill itself etc or the rune or sigils or food. This is about making defense against condi more than just vitality

So why don't all the other ways you can itemize and build against conditions count?

If the answer is "because it's not a stat" then I feel your being way too narrow in your thought process when it comes to the options the game gives you for builds and counters.

[rng.1024]

@"Sovereign.1093" said:Ok ppl seem to misunderstand. Condi only needs condi damage to kill. And there is effectively no counter stat to it unlike power where If your toughness is high and your vit, you can tank long.

A person running Pvt if hit with condi will go down fast.

Unlike a person running dire will not go down fast from power damage.

It's not about the skill itself etc or the rune or sigils or food. This is about making defense against condi more than just vitality

There are alot of counters to condi:

• Vitality is a direct counter stat, scales way better against condi than toughness does to power
• Healing/s, this includes the regen boon
• Personal cleanse
• Group cleanse
• Food (-20%)
• Runes (up to 25%)
• Sigils (f.ex generosity and cleansing)
• Resistance
• Dark Aura
• Skill specific effects (FB, Rev and Engi)
• Blasting a light field
• Whirl finishers in water fields
• Stunbreaks (for taunt and fear)
• Invulns
• Utility/PoTK (more vit)

This is all without even touching profession specific condition negation, like thief steal, ranger pet or mesmer distortion. And on top of it all 99% of condi applications are dodge-able.

Then your argument boils down to you wanting a stat that on top of vitality reduces condition damage, in the same way vitality helps against power damage, yeah?

Sadly vitality negates 0% of power damage. It negates "base health/added vit" of condition pressure, in the exact same way toughness negates 0% of conditon damage. With all these active tools available listed above having another stat against condi damage would completely remove it from play.

If that is your aim this is another discussion entirely. I would get your sentiment if vitality was the only counter, but power damage already is way more unreliable due to precision and dependecy on a 3 stat combo - this is why vitality can and should help against both.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Sovereign.1093 said:Ok ppl seem to misunderstand. Condi only needs condi damage to kill. And there is effectively no counter stat to it unlike power where If your toughness is high and your vit, you can tank long.

A person running Pvt if hit with condi will go down fast.

Unlike a person running dire will not go down fast from power damage.Which makes littke sense. A person running pvt vs a person running dire will go down in the same time to condi (similar vitality) and power (similar toughness).

And you're missing the most crucial aspect of condi - time does not necessarily stack damage. 2 players doing 5000 damage each will double their damage full stop. Two players doing 500 condi damage per second for 10s each may be completely ineffective at doubling their damage as a cleanse will remove it all - even when its only ticked for a 1000 damage. The more players you add, the worse it becomes.

There is a reason why condi is almost only effective solo or 2 man and as soon as groups become 3+ they revert to standard zerg meta with power dps+minstrel healers.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I wouldn't have agreed with this back in 2013, but the way the game is now. It actually makes more sense for toughness to affect condition damage.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Condi were less a problem also because power could still pressure enough and kill.Now all power base of skills and traits have been nerfed, trailblazer/apothecary cancers can win againt multiple targets weathered. (See bunker necro, bunker signet tempest/weaver, herald, etc)Pvp it starts to be balanced again.

[Sovereign.1093]

Yes, the condi spam is strong and have a few banner wars and you got your insta kill of downs. Just so easy to do it now

[ArchonWing.9480]

If toughness was buffed, this would make trailblazer even more effective, and put grieving or other offensive condi stats at a disadvantage vs them. This would just enforce the bunker meta. It doesn't really help that toughness is a luxury for most small scale/roaming builds too if you are going power....