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Stats & Gear are the biggest issues for WvW


Shiyo.3578

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For offensive, using the exact same "gear" as SPvP(marauder amulet vs full ascended marauder gear) I do 50% more damage. I only have 1k more hp but deal 50% more damage. This is even without factoring in the many sigils WvW has that can crit for upwards of 4k or food/potions.

On the defense side, you have gear like "minstrels" which provides ZERO offensive stats and is a pure defensive set of gear. This said gear was removed from SPvP due to creating tanky full support builds that just stand there and never die. You can build this way in WvW, which allows boring game play from both sides.

It's very clear WvW was designed and balanced before ascended gear, or any of these new pure defensive stat combinations. Perhaps WvW gear should be completely revamped and re-examined with the amount of stats players get now with ascended gear? People are either too tanky or do too much damage, even WITH the global 33% damage nerf. This creates a very imbalanced and unfun PvP experience for the majority of people involved.

You can either gear to do too much damage, or gear to be too tanky. "Balanced" builds are actually useless in WvW, unlike SPvP, because the amount of offensive stats you have in WvW is far, far, far too high to make any build besides pure glass or pure defense playable. Full defense is also too tanky because you have access to stats SPvP specifically had removed due to making people unkillable. This is just not good design overall.

It's very easy to understand why this is an issue: You gain more weapon damage due to ascended(10% damage) and ascended stats in general, but just the weapon power alone is enough to sway offensive to be too high. On top of this, as mentioned, there are stat combos that have no place in a PvP mode such as minstrels and trailblazers which makes gearing pure defensive also too strong.

The issue is it makes it so you're either full glass, or full tank(+condi/healing) and no inbetween while SPvP severely punishes you for going full glass and does NOT allow full defense at all. A zerker thief with 11k HP is a free kill in SPvP, but in WvW the same thief is also a free kill in full marauders due to how high damage is.

At it's core, WvW PvP is massively imbalanced due to gear stats. This is the very first and most important aspect of any PvP game mode, and I feel WvW fails at it and needs to re-examine gear stats. Without the core, the rest of the game mode falls apart entirely.

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Apples and oranges. PvP is largely about holding small cap circles, so naturally bunkers are more of an issue there. In WvW, the field of battle is larger and you have more freedom to disengage. Also you also cannot bunker against 20 people. Considering that you could be hit from attacks from many more sources than pvp, it makes sense that you also need more defensive stats.

Oh, and how is it possible that people can both do too much damage and also be too tanky?

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@"Shiyo.3578" said:It's very clear WvW was designed and balanced before ascended gear...

Thanks for the laugh. Virtually everything around combat in this game was originally designed around PvP, WvW was an afterthought, a project some of the devs wanted to do, Anet's orignial view was that PvP and their "e-sport" were the serious bit, whilst PvE & WvW were the casual bit. As for balance, WvW gets more balance attention these days than it ever did pre-HoT when they balanced the game nearly entirely around PvP, bar the odd rare change for the casual modes. Which was most ably demonstrated back when the devs (Jon Peters, Jon Sharp, etc) used to do Twitch streams after balance patches going through the changes and you'd be lucky if WvW or PvE got mentioned more than once.

And also why "famous" WvW player Sacrx made a less than complimentary video about Alpha and how PvE/WvW were basically ignored as far as combat balance/design went and everything was about what Team Paradigm, etc thought in sPvP.

WvW never has been and never will be even remotely balanced, you can't balance a game mode like that, stats are the least of its issues.

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@"Shiyo.3578"

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

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@Swagger.1459 said:@"Shiyo.3578"

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

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A wvw player wants to hit that comfortable threshold of gear stats, traits, and personal skill that lets them fight and get bags but also survive if they need to. I find that maybe 2/3 (I'm full of shit, I really have no idea) of players I see in WvW hit that threshold while not very many can master their pace of being hit, to recovering, to flipping and dominating. They can pack on as much vitality and even a good deal of toughness but if they have no flak other than some passive stuff their meta build happens to have then once I've opened them up with boon steal, control, and secondary mod from control like interrupts or blinds and so on, even a massive health pool depletes pretty fast.

It's not very balanced but there is a sort of WvW ecosystem to figure out how to survive in. I sort of agree on the imbalance, I just don't think it's a problem. We also need to take into account those secondary mods and conditional skills like damage reduction/increase traits that can make an engage to a fight give you a false template of what their build really and where you can start dismantling them once they've gassed out a bit.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

The devs said no.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

The devs said no.

You still are not answering the question. What does "esports" have to do with balance? Do you think that for some reason, if they attempt to "balance" wvw it'll be bad?

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

Also, WvW isn’t structured “for e-sports” player versus player, where a handful of players fight over small circles to 500pts. WvW is this...

And the inspiration for WvW came from Dark Age of Camelot Realm versus Realm versus Realm gameplay.

I'm not sure what this has to do with player power being so high in WvW compared to PvP.

Spvp uses the amulet system, and has removed some stats for balancing 5v5. WvW isn’t 5v5. WvW has had the same open gear system since launch. Over 8 years players have made gears and stuff for WvW and the devs aren’t going to tell players they are removing any gear. WvW wasn’t meant to be “fairer e-sports”, like the devs attempt to do inside of Spvp. WvW was primarily designed for hundreds of players to battle across 4 maps, not primarily designed for e-sports balance for your duels inside of WvW.

We have been over this hundreds of times and the devs are not changing the gear system inside of WvW. And the devs said NO.

I don't see what esports balance has to do with WvW. Are you admitting WvW is intentionally imbalanced and badly designed?

The devs said no.

You still are not answering the question. What does "esports" have to do with balance? Do you think that for some reason, if they attempt to "balance" wvw it'll be bad?

You honestly don't know why the devs made the amulet system and removed some stats from spvp??????

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No amulet system for WvW. That's for PvP, WvW is endgame and that is building sets that work towards your defined role, playstyle, fightsize and I would daresay connection. If anything we could use some more stat combos. And no I don't think they should be balancing around zerker as the core set either.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:No amulet system for WvW. That's for PvP, WvW is endgame and that is building sets that work towards your defined role, playstyle, fightsize and I would daresay connection. If anything we could use some more stat combos. And no I don't think they should be balancing around zerker as the core set either.

No one said anything about an amulet system...just re-examining player power in WvW.

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WvW is open stat wild wild west. Yeeehaww grandmaaww. Part of the fun is learning how to survive what you can, and know when something is trouble. If we change anything I'd say go for target caps, boons/condi, and stacks (maybe limit the amount of different boon/condi a single person can take, would be fun if you had to juggle the priority) as they all have a cascading effect on server performance which I'd rather see dealt with. Ah, who am I kidding

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You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol Do you want every one in WvW to have a standard set of stats regardless of your level and gears? Yes that would balance things. But wait, how about those skilled players? Ok let's cripple them and then all should be balanced.

The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

ANet, WvW as it is today the player base is suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner. Don't repeat the same mistake you made years ago when you introduced the ascended gears and made a hugh chunk of your supporters left the games. You cannot afford that mistake again, not today. Well, unless your intention is to kill WvW, go ahead and listen to more of the cryers.

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@"Mil.3562" said:You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

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@"RedShark.9548" said:On one hand ppl deal too much dmg and on the other they are too tanky? Doesnt look like a gear issue to me generally.

That's precisely the issue. You can either gear to do too much damage, or gear to be too tanky. "Balanced" builds are actually useless in WvW, unlike SPvP, because the amount of offensive stats you have in WvW is far, far, far too high to make any build besides pure glass or pure defense playable. Full defense is also too tanky because you have access to stats SPvP specifically had removed due to making people unkillable. This is just not good design overall.

It's very easy to understand why this is an issue: You gain more weapon damage due to ascended(10% damage) and ascended stats in general, but just the weapon power alone is enough to sway offensive to be too high. On top of this, as mentioned, there are stat combos that have no place in a PvP mode such as minstrels and trailblazers which makes gearing pure defensive also too strong.

The issue is it makes it so you're either full glass, or full tank(+condi/healing) and no inbetween while SPvP severely punishes you for going full glass and does NOT allow full defense at all. A zerker thief with 11k HP is a free kill in SPvP, but in WvW the same thief is also a free kill in full marauders due to how high damage is.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:

@"Mil.3562" said:You are calling for a nerf to WvW gears? OMG. On top of the quarterly nerf patches and last year super hugh stats nerfs across the board, you still find players in WvW too OP and at the same time tanky and isn't this outright contradicting? OP, honestly I think WvW is not for you.

Doesn't too tanky balanced out with too much damaged? Instead of taking the same ends to compare, you are taking two opposite ends and compare, and you expect a balance? lol

The developers have nerfed practically every thing from power to buffs to heals and even the Warclaw has turned into a useless fashion mount in WvW, there are still calls for nerfs? If you think players are still too OP or tanky, it is only because you are comparing the best against the worst and you expect a balance to that??

WvW as it is today, the player base are suffering a slow death. Don't kill it sooner.

Yes, WvW is either pure tank builds never dying or pure glass builds 1 shotting eachother. The amount of stats in WvW is too high both defensively and offensively. SPvP has MUCH better balanced character power.I do 14k death's justice in WvW without even using food or potions and have 17.6k HP. In SPvP I do 9k. and have 16.6k HP using the same "gear", marauders in every slot and marauders amulet in SPvP. If I went pure zerker glass, I'm sure I could do enough damage to ONE SHOT my marauder build. The Damage: HP ratio of "balanced" builds is out of whack in WvW, turning it into 1 shots or invincible tanks. This creates an unhealthy game.

Go roam in WvW and tell me what builds you often see, I guarantee it's mostly people playing pure glass 1 shotting or trailblazer bunkers.

Should we now balance all professions inside of wvw for roaming and 1v1 encounters?

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