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RisenHowl.2419

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The main problem in my opinion is that scourge under the current design just does not work in WvW. No other class has this amount of area denial which stays for extended amounts of time. Why does every fight have to consist of wading through a mine field to get at the opponents? No other class is so oppressive that it makes several other professions completely unviable.The last change may have been a bit heavy handed. Imo ANET should just rework scourges into more of a support class which was the design goal at first. The meta after POF made the whole of WvW unplayable and a lot of people left for quite some time. Place shades, run into opponents, if your zerg is bigger you win. No counter play, no questions asked. Now we suddenly see a lot more variance in zergs. We have melee fighters, we have support tempests, all stuff which is not possible with all those stationary AoEs.I really like your videos, Risen, and I have "liberated" quite a few ideas for characters which I consider my mains and still play in WvW, but in this I strongly disagree. Maybe the big shade could have stayed at 3 targets, but the nerf to wells and shades had to be this hard for the good of the game.

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@God.2708 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:I think when the community asked for nerfs to make sure scourge wouldn't push out every other melee class, they didn't mean 'remove scourge from wvw entirely'?

3 target shades makes sense, that's 12 possible targets with 3 perfectly placed shades and you in melee range, a very unlikely bomb to land. 6 targets with sand savant isn't awful either.

but... 2 targets? a perfectly placed three shade bomb hits 8 people, realistic play is 2-4 targets. What would even be the point?

So 2x3 targets (which is > 5 targtets) counts as a nerf these days? I am not sure my math agrees.Yes, they need to be perfectly placed. But so did the shades before, when you had to decide between range and melee. And it showed. Scourges did typically hog top or high spots in DPS and strips. Yes, warriors can outstrip them, but look where they typically end up damage-wise, if they do. And yes, revs, good soulbeasts and probably more professions can greatly outdamage scourges, but look where they appear in terms of strips, heals or cleanses.There was a good reason the typical "ideal" squad compo was: fb, healer (ele or scrapper), rev (or sometimes spb) and .... 2x scourge. Raising the number of overall targets would not have done this justice.The one thing I might agree on is that big shades should probably 3 targets - but then again I main warrior and I have a defense traitline with 2 passive traits with a 300 second cooldown. So ... suck it up?

So you have a video of a scourge landing 3 shades on a moving zerg then? The other guy said the same thing but couldn't find one =D

And again, for the third(?) time in this thread, I'm all for scourge nerfs. 2 targets makes the class unusable though.

Timestamp ~3min 5s since these stupid forums don't allow direct timelinks.

Really just need to land 2 + yourself for 6 targets which is both a reasonable target count and not exceptionally difficult to pull off.

It really doesn't affect scourges all that much beyond making other necro specs actually usable because they can finally be better than the scourge at something. Very little corruption goes on in shades now unless you were landing triple mini shades (which you keep saying is super duper difficult, and it is). So scourges lost a lot of targets on a bomb that was pretty mediocre to begin with post feb patch. Maybe people will stop spamming shade skills all at once and use them for their actual niches. Scourges will still corrupt better, depending on how all in they want to go in on it. Still have the most interesting and strongest supporting/corrupting utilities. Still offers feed from corruption for even more purity of purpose. Barrier took a hit but maybe that will shut up the 'OMG BOON BALL INVULN' people a little.

overall more healthy than it was, and it will still be around because ghastly breach is disgusting.

This is well said.

@"MLinni.6109" said:The main problem in my opinion is that scourge under the current design just does not work in WvW. No other class has this amount of area denial which stays for extended amounts of time. Why does every fight have to consist of wading through a mine field to get at the opponents? No other class is so oppressive that it makes several other professions completely unviable.The last change may have been a bit heavy handed. Imo ANET should just rework scourges into more of a support class which was the design goal at first. The meta after POF made the whole of WvW unplayable and a lot of people left for quite some time. Place shades, run into opponents, if your zerg is bigger you win. No counter play, no questions asked. Now we suddenly see a lot more variance in zergs. We have melee fighters, we have support tempests, all stuff which is not possible with all those stationary AoEs.I really like your videos, Risen, and I have "liberated" quite a few ideas for characters which I consider my mains and still play in WvW, but in this I strongly disagree. Maybe the big shade could have stayed at 3 targets, but the nerf to wells and shades had to be this hard for the good of the game.

I agree, it would be better if shades were more support oriented. 3 targets would be healthy for sand savant too if they removed the cd increase.

Going to 2 targets for shades is a pretty inelegant solution though, especially since scourge was in a somewhat balanced position from February until the 7th. If they had reduced the target cap to 3 instead of putting back the personal shade, scourge would have been perfectly balanced. 6 target bombs aren't worth the investment required to land them and 8 target bombs come down to luck in that the enemy squad has to let you sit at 900 range for 3s without them moving.

Scourge was oppressive in wvw and needed toning down, this was a poor way to do it. 5 months and this was the best solution they had?

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@Acyk.9671 said:

@Acyk.9671 said:Prepare for melee gameplay and be destroyed by reaper/soulbeast within WoD. Hahaha good times ahead> @mixxed.5862 said:

Still doesn't explain why they would effectively delete a GM trait; it is, now, utterly useless

oh yeah, if there was any part of the nerfs that i dislike it has to be the insane blow to Sand Savant. before the patch hit on the 7th Sand Savant was still kinda useless, but one could argue for the ease of the bigger aoe. now though, there's literally no reason to not run Feed from Corruption.

I think the reasoning is that if they left big shade at 3 targets or more, everyone would run that trait on their dps scourge. While small shade is more fun and big shade is meant to be the choice for support builds. In the future they could give it an increased number of allied targets: Still only hits 2 enemies, but 5 allied targets.

Sand Savant shouldn't increase enemy target nor radius in the first place, only increase allied target to 5.3 enemy target was fine, 2 is killing the spec

id say indeed good times ahead, melee gameplay was always more fun than pirateshipping, which is boring AF

True melee gameplay is more fun ( at least for me) but i was a bit sarcastic here as reaper and soulbeast (can also add berserker) have access to an insane amount of ferocity which might obliterate people with immob in WoD

They still have to go melee, which as warrior atleast gives me the chance to fight them kind of equally, instead of them just standing on full range

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@RedShark.9548 said:They still have to go melee, which as warrior atleast gives me the chance to fight them kind of equally, instead of them just standing on full range

This really is key. With the reduced sustain due to less stunbreaks, and shorter boons, while condis were not hit in a similar way, ranged damage wasn't hit in a similar way, and CC was hit - but not with the outcome expected - changes like this are necessary.The only alternative is to add a lot more tankyness to melee, especially in cases where damage isn't the main focus. And dev don't wanna go back to such specialized solutions as the 300s CD on the defense traitline traits for warriors show for example.

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@nthmetal.9652 said:

@RedShark.9548 said:They still have to go melee, which as warrior atleast gives me the chance to fight them kind of equally, instead of them just standing on full range

This really is key. With the reduced sustain due to less stunbreaks, and shorter boons, while condis were not hit in a similar way, ranged damage wasn't hit in a similar way, and CC was hit - but not with the outcome expected - changes like this are necessary.The only alternative is to add a lot more tankyness to melee,
especially
in cases where damage isn't the main focus. And dev don't wanna go back to such specialized solutions as the 300s CD on the defense traitline traits for warriors show for example.

Lowering those nobrain cds isnt a solution, even with them the game wasnt much fun. The only solution was to nerf dmg across the board, it just isnt reasonable to have a ranged class deal much much more dmg than a melee class without having any drawback.

On a sidenote, i was hit by a holo overheat for 15k in a single hit, with 3k armor.Thats should definately not be a thing anymore, but really happened, cant post a screenshot right now, because im on mobile.

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