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Toughness should be a deterant to conditions


Sovereign.1093

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I hate to be that guy, but I tend to start skimming through the post whenever I see the following line:

Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge.

Because it isn't true. For one, condi skills have a power component on them that figures significantly into their overall damage. There are reasons why griever and viper exist, and it is because with equal amounts of power and precision, the direct damage component hits really hard. Second, condition duration is a second stat that is really important. Asserting that condi duration is meaningless is to assert that all damaging conditions have no drawbacks to being 40% shorter than they would be otherwise, and that all of the disabling conditions have no meaningful effect if they last longer. The only time I ever managed to 1v3 and win was on a viper Herald during HoT, and if I didn't have so much up-front damage I would've been pummeled.

Third, if we assume that condition duration is meaningless, then we'd also have to consider that the vast majority of power damage comes from the power stat. 1000 points of precision only increases the damage output by around 25% of what you're already doing, making it useless without power on top of it. You add 1000 points of ferocity on top of that somehow, and then your crit modifier goes to 60% bonus... of what power already gives you. That, too, is not a lot. Consider this, if you hit for 1 half the time, and then hit for 2.16 the other half of the time, then power is going to account for 63% of that damage (2/3.16), and the other two inflated stats account for 37%. Predicated on the assertion from the second point, we would have no choice but to conclude that power builds also only need one stat, because that is where most of their damage comes from. This would put Dire and Soldier on equal grounds of each other, because they both do the same thing.

So whenever I see the above line, I just sort of tune out the remaining suggestions. They all started from the wrong premises, so their conclusions aren't going to be any better.

EDIT: Weird. I did the math wrong on the second part, but it comes out to be almost the same. Instead of taking the weighted average, I just added them together. The weighted average should look like this:

Normal Damage half of the time: 1 x 50% = 0.5Crit chance + crit damage = 2.16 x 50% = 1.08Weighted Average: 1.58Total Power contribution: (1 x 50% + 1 x 50%) / 1.58 = 63%Total Crit Contribution: (0 x 50% + 1.16 x 50%) / 1.58 = 37%

I always find it funny when the wrong steps somehow lead to the same answer. Apparently, when dealing with two numbers, unintentionally doubling those numbers and their weighted average leads to the same proportions. Leaving in the top part for posterity.

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@Doug.4930 said:Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

Its the hard way to tweak better balance in small scale, but since everyone is bunker condi and bunker support the damage tick denial wouldnt matter much IMO.Conditions were always this strong in smaller scale palyers just had better low effort damage output before, just like condi rev was always great but there were esyer builds to carry and more efective than it before the damage patch.The talk about condi vs armor isnt anything new..

@Doug.4930yeap, that's the problem, in larger gameplay it isnt much of and issue since out of 70-80 15-20 are sracpers and the other 25-30 are FB (our server timezone doesnt have that number of players), we are 10 players max at coms fighting bloby full condi bunkers servers.In small gameplay our scrappers can catch 400(minin per each 2-5min fight)-600+ condi cleanses just for some minuts, ive seen close to 1k condi cleanses on a 8ish(maybe less) minute fight, and im talking from 10-15 players.

Conditions are OP in small scale, yes that's for sure, and Anet know it how broken it can reach... but needs to be taken slowlly, burn IMO should be the condition that needs urgent fix.

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@"Sovereign.1093" said:Condition damage has no power component :/

Griever etc works for builds that use both power and condi

An easy test is make 2 tunes Duke it out. 1 all dire 1 all Pvt. See which one kills the other fast.

Or even just all dire and all zerkSure. Try a dire core engineer with for example rifle and all turrets using something like alchemy 3/3/1, inventions 1/2/3, tools 1/1/1 , vs a zerk metabattle daredevil and see who kills the other fast.

Oh and you are NOT allowed to say "but you're intentionally gimping the engineer by choosing those things!". Because that would be admitting gear stats isnt everything. And you're only talking about gear stats. So dire should still win the dps race, right? We're not even talking about an outmanned fight! 1v1 my dire engineer above must win.

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@"Widmo.3186" said:Delete "condi damage" stat from gear ;)

Hardcoded condition damage values like we had in gw1?That actually would be interesing, to see the old health pip degen back, but our health pools are way bigger now :.

would be interesting to see how tuned could the degen pip efect needed to be changed so it would be same efectiveness in large and small scale, if this system removes the gap efectiveness and finds a midle place i would bet on it, but this would be to mcuh work changing condition mechanics.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Sovereign.1093" said:Condition damage has no power component :/

Griever etc works for builds that use both power and condi

An easy test is make 2 tunes Duke it out. 1 all dire 1 all Pvt. See which one kills the other fast.

Or even just all dire and all zerkSure. Try a dire core engineer with for example rifle and all turrets using something like alchemy 3/3/1, inventions 1/2/3, tools 1/1/1 , vs a zerk metabattle daredevil and see who kills the other fast.

Oh and you are
NOT
allowed to say "but you're intentionally gimping the engineer by choosing those things!". Because that would be admitting gear stats isnt everything. And you're only talking about gear stats. So dire should still win the dps race, right? We're not even talking about an outmanned fight! 1v1 my dire engineer above
must
win.

Sure a dire stat renegade on bow vs that dd. :3

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It is currently easier to craft a build that can tank condi damage for ages than a build that can do the samge with power damage.

Condi damage can be oppressive, but at the same time there are options to basically nullify this type of damage.

I don't see any reason why toughness should affect incoming condi damage. That would be a rework of a basic mechanic and lead to deleting condi damage from the game.

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Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said::3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.I did directly answer you question:
Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

Yes I agree. :)

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said::3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

How silly of everyone to question the need for these changes rather than simply accepting your premise as a universal truth and green lighting your idea!

Of course. :)

@Fearless.3569 said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

My English isn't good. You put the right perspective. :)

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@Sovereign.1093 said::3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

You can't talk about stats and then omit everything else. Builds don't revolve only around stats but also around skills, talents and runes/sigils.

If you want to only advocate for a change in stats as balance to condition damage and toughness, you are automatically balancing around only part of what makes a build in this game. In short: your analysis and approach is already faulty and incomplete at its core.

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@Fearless.3569 said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

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This topic comes up every 3 days and is meaningless without video evidence to analyze why a situation plays out the way it does.

Damage based condition builds are not overpowered in WvW. They are strong in 1v1's where their tankiness and sustained pressure plays into their favor, and they scale back dramatically in outnumbered situations where opponents can alternate the pressure and burn your sustain down since most condi builds are somewhat low mobility. They have options in large groups, which is good. But a large group made of solely condi damage dealers would fare poorly against a same-sized group with a more balanced or power oriented approach.

There does not need to be new boons or adjustments to current boons to 'counter' condis. Giving a few more options to obtaining resistance might be acceptable. There does not need to be adjustments or changes to stats. Trailblazers isn't any better than a same stat power armor with ++Power ++Vitality +Prec +Toughness would be in terms of damage dealt and survivability (A stat set like that WOULD be pretty nifty though Anet, hint hint).

On a side note, does +condition duration work additively with -condi duration or multiplicatively? IE if someone has +100% condition duration and I have -20% do they have 180% condi duration or 160%?

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@God.2708 said:On a side note, does +condition duration work additively with -condi duration or multiplicatively? IE if someone has +100% condition duration and I have -20% do they have 180% condi duration or 160%?Afaik -duration is based on incoming duration. If the enemy is a full trailblazer set with +100% duration and you have -50% duration, its eqvivalent to the enemy having +0% condi duration. -75% would be the enemy having -50%. The same goes for damage. There is a reason some particular bunker builds can nearly nullify conditions.

But I havent really bothered looking into it so may be wrong.

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@Dagger.2035 said:Vitality should be thought of as the primary defensive stat and it provides the best defense against both Power and Condition damage. Toughness and Healing Power should be considered minor defensive stats which give you more sustain over time.

If someone chooses to run high Toughness to have an advantage against Power builds then they should be weaker against Condition damage.

If we are going to refactor anything I wish they would have changed how condition damage stacks work. A long time ago some suggested that all condition stacks should do the same damage and Condition damage just increases the amount of stacks applied.

This change serves two purposes. First, it simplifies damage calculations on the server since you don’t need the enemy player’s stats to calculate the damage. Second, it allows you to see how much damage you will receive since high Condition damage builds will apply more stacks.Dude you should make this its own thread in general. This needs to be seen.Currently the passive burn applying specks are confusing it might be power or condition speck, but it just popped 5 to 10 burns on you, if its power it is ok to leave them if its not you cleanse it or you die.

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