Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Damaging Conditions need to have the durations OR the damage halved in half across all proffesions


anduriell.6280

Recommended Posts

Conditions are busted right now, healing and cleanses were nerfed but not the condition application. A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.Also condition builds only need 1 stat at the moment, condition damage. Expertise although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Condition builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any power build.

As such this should be done to conditions if we want a balanced game style.

  • If the damage stacks do can be specified by game mode, Damage should be reduced a 30% across all professions.
  • If that is not achievable then the duration of every condition application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reducing the duration would be against the "slow" ramping nature of this mean of damage so I guess the only acceptable one is reducing the damage dealt. That said, even if the dev do that, it won't change the fact that some professions are still to fast at stacking conditions on their foes. Another difficult point is that PvP players tend to refer to their "death report" to see what kill them and if condition deal less damage, it mean that these players will eat more condition damage, gaining access to "proofs" through exageratedly high numbers that conditions deal to much damage while in fact they would have taken damage from these conditions for a long time. I mean, We already have people that produce such "proofs" showing everyone that they took 20 to 30 tics of burn before dying, when will dying from burn be acceptable? After 60 tics? after 120 tics?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@anduriell.6280 said:Conditions are busted right now, healing and cleanses were nerfed but not the condition application. A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.Also condition builds only need 1 stat at the moment, condition damage. Expertise although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Condition builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any power build.

As such this should be done to conditions if we want a balanced game style.

  • If the damage stacks do can be specified by game mode, Damage should be reduced a 30% across all professions.
  • If that is not achievable then the duration of every condition application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.

And condi application has been consistently nerfed. It was nerfed prior to the power-nerf reduction patch. Health pools stayed the same as did most cleanses.

Really the only major outlier atm is maybe condi-Rev but that’s about a specific build so maybe we should ask for condi-Rev nerfs rather than claiming some universal nerf is needed.

Mirage: Not too common and one dodge makes this very rare to see. I see more power core mesmers.

Scourge/Core Necro: Runs condi but often see Reapers running power (probably about 60%+ of the time).

Revenant: Maybe 60% condi and 40% run power. Is imo better on condi than power.

Thief: 75% run power, maybe 25% run some kind of condi...and that’s generous to condi. I actually suspect the ratio is closer to 90/10.

Weaver: Condi version isn’t terrible but the profession isn’t that common to see overall. Lots more tempests and even core power ele.

Firebrand/DH/Guardian: Overall the power/condi split here is heavily skewed by Firebrand but I’d say that condi specs are not too over performing here. Plenty of people playing power builds effectively.

Druid: meh, it’s again about 95% power and 5% condi. Maybe 10% at best. Condi just isn’t as effective as a big burst of 1600 range longbow fire.

Like...nothing here stands out as justifying a universal nerf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@saerni.2584 said:

@"anduriell.6280" said:Conditions are busted right now, healing and cleanses were nerfed but not the condition application. A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.Also condition builds only need 1 stat at the moment, condition damage. Expertise although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Condition builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any power build.

As such this should be done to conditions if we want a balanced game style.
  • If the damage stacks do can be specified by game mode, Damage should be reduced a 30% across all professions.
  • If that is not achievable then the duration of every condition application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.

And condi application has been consistently nerfed. It was nerfed prior to the power-nerf reduction patch. Health pools stayed the same as did most cleanses.

Really the only major outlier atm is maybe condi-Rev but that’s about a specific build so maybe we should ask for condi-Rev nerfs rather than claiming some universal nerf is needed.

Mirage: Not too common and one dodge makes this very rare to see. I see more power core mesmers.

Scourge/Core Necro: Runs condi but often see Reapers running power (probably about 60%+ of the time).

Revenant: Maybe 60% condi and 40% run power. Is imo better on condi than power.

Thief: 75% run power, maybe 25% run some kind of condi...and that’s generous to condi. I actually suspect the ratio is closer to 90/10.

Weaver: Condi version isn’t terrible but the profession isn’t that common to see overall. Lots more tempests and even core power ele.

Firebrand/DH/Guardian: Overall the power/condi split here is heavily skewed by Firebrand but I’d say that condi specs are not too over performing here. Plenty of people playing power builds effectively.

Druid: meh, it’s again about 95% power and 5% condi. Maybe 10% at best. Condi just isn’t as effective as a big burst of 1600 range longbow fire.

Like...nothing here stands out as justifying a universal nerf.

I don't think you understand. As long as at least one condition build is managing to kill people the damage type as a whole is considered a problem.

I mean I fully expect someone to reply with a screen shot of them taking like 50-100k damage from conditions as some sort of justification for it being OP not realising the holes in that particular argument .

This exact thread pops up time and time again with the same arguments and premise with the same overall "nerf all condi" suggestion but they all boil down to over performing build being an issue, no everything as a whole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@anduriell.6280 said:Conditions are busted right now, healing and cleanses were nerfed but not the condition application. A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.Also condition builds only need 1 stat at the moment, condition damage. Expertise although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Condition builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any power build.

As such this should be done to conditions if we want a balanced game style.

  • If the damage stacks do can be specified by game mode, Damage should be reduced a 30% across all professions.
  • If that is not achievable then the duration of every condition application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.

Power meta as usual....But it's condi that's busted and a reasonable 50% nerf across the board is the obvious solution.

Do you guys ever get tired of having no idea what you're talking about?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the power balance patch p/p engineer got its burn stacks halved and duration doubled, but also duration and damage bonuses halved from traits for an effective ~70% cut in blowtorch dps.

After the same patch, power builds can still almost instakill other players.

Thanks but I'm good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your post but there's an issue here - I'll use condi core Mesmer as an example. As it stands it's conditions without any duration literally fall off before you can blink - halving the duration would mean in full condi gear you'd be lucky if you get a tick of damage. Halving the damage on this would also severely impact it because the condis don't last so the DPS output would be too low to be ever worth using.

If you don't believe me, try it out. Core condi - dueling/illusions/X use rabid amulet stats and undead runes. I say this because not everyone runs huge duration condi builds, some prefer high hitting low duration (namely hybrid builds). Instead the issue is all the access to stacking duration from traits/sigils/expertise/food. All I'm saying is that you have to consider the non duration stacking builds AND the ones that are low damage but rely on ramp up/duration/stacking multiple stacks to achieve damage.

I will say condis in general are too rewarding though as certain classes only need to hit you a few times to apply death dealing damage while remaining very tanky and able to play 100% defensively - ultimately being low risk high reward.. but it isn't so simple as halving damage/duration across all classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Strider.7849 said:I will say condis in general are too rewarding though as certain classes only need to hit you a few times to apply death dealing damage while remaining very tanky and able to play 100% defensively - ultimately being low risk high reward.. but it isn't so simple as halving damage/duration across all classes.

So all conditions are a problem because of certain builds on certain classes? Why not those builds specifically?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I will say
condis in general are too rewarding
though
as certain classes
only need to hit you a few times to apply death dealing damage while remaining very tanky and able to play 100% defensively - ultimately being low risk high reward.. but it isn't so simple as halving damage/duration across all classes.

So all conditions are a problem because of certain builds on certain classes? Why not those builds specifically?

My mistake

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Strider.7849 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I will say
condis in general are too rewarding
though
as certain classes
only need to hit you a few times to apply death dealing damage while remaining very tanky and able to play 100% defensively - ultimately being low risk high reward.. but it isn't so simple as halving damage/duration across all classes.

So all conditions are a problem because of certain builds on certain classes? Why not those builds specifically?

Read it again and not so pessimisticly. Not sure why so many of you forum users will cherry pick to suit your agenda rather than looking at the overall idea(s). If you look above that I give one example of why the OP's statement shouldn't apply. Your first word bolded is also generally speaking - because a lot of builds and classes can fit what I said. Smh, I don't even know why I'm trying to explain this to you.

I'm not attacking you in any way, sorry if thats how it came across,just for me your intent isn't as clear as you seem to want it to be. The way it reads to me is: Its not a problem, here is a build where you can see it isn't..but in general it is a problem..because there are builds where it is. There is a subtle different between whats generally said: conditions are a problem because of some classes and the reality : because of some classes conditions can be a problem. The distinction between these is what people seem to always miss. Though people are getting better, e.g. complaints about condi herald, this still pops up time to time, especially is more than one class has an ok condition build.

Conditions in general are not too rewarding or a problem, its some of the builds that use them are over-tuned in one way or another. The exact same thing can be said about power damage with little reservation. The over arching meta is still power dominant and the larger/more organised the group play the more redundant they are due to shared cleanse.

It also doesn't help thata) the game never teaches you how to handle them properly.b) when they tried to introduce more condi heavy mobs people complained, so they took them out. This means people moving into environments where conditions can be more present suddenly have no idea what to do or why they are dying besides "condi is bs".c) generally people are worse at fighting against conditions for a few reasonsd) the death log is terrible as explaining why you died outside the scope of only taking power damage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Strider.7849 said:I will say
condis in general are too rewarding
though
as certain classes
only need to hit you a few times to apply death dealing damage while remaining very tanky and able to play 100% defensively - ultimately being low risk high reward.. but it isn't so simple as halving damage/duration across all classes.

So all conditions are a problem because of certain builds on certain classes? Why not those builds specifically?

Read it again and not so pessimisticly. Not sure why so many of you forum users will cherry pick to suit your agenda rather than looking at the overall idea(s). If you look above that I give one example of why the OP's statement shouldn't apply. Your first word bolded is also generally speaking - because a lot of builds and classes can fit what I said. Smh, I don't even know why I'm trying to explain this to you.

I'm not attacking you in any way, sorry if thats how it came across,just for me your intent isn't as clear as you seem to want it to be. The way it reads to me is: Its not a problem, here is a build where you can see it isn't..but in general it is a problem..because there are builds where it is. There is a subtle different between whats generally said: conditions are a problem because of some classes and the reality : because of some classes conditions can be a problem. The distinction between these is what people seem to always miss. Though people are getting better, e.g. complaints about condi herald, this still pops up time to time, especially is more than one class has an ok condition build.

Conditions in general are not too rewarding or a problem, its some of the builds that use them are over-tuned in one way or another. The exact same thing can be said about power damage with little reservation. The over arching meta is still power dominant and the larger/more organised the group play the more redundant they are due to shared cleanse.

It also doesn't help thata) the game never teaches you how to handle them properly.b) when they tried to introduce more condi heavy mobs people complained, so they took them out. This means people moving into environments where conditions can be more present suddenly have no idea what to do or why they are dying besides "condi is bs".c) generally people are worse at fighting against conditions for a few reasonsd) the death log is
terrible
as explaining why you died outside the scope of only taking power damage.

My apologies as well, I usually have people that do that on here or see them quite often do it to others. Also I'm at work right now and spent my lunch break driving back to and getting a refund at Wendy's because they decided to give me a crushed burger and serve a poutine inside of small drink cup with only a few fries - giving a spoon to eat them with as well. Minor annoyance to most people but it means I don't get to eat on a 12 hour shift.

With that being said, I agree mostly with what you said in your response. Perhaps it is some builds that need to be looked at.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kiwituatara.6053 said:Make autoattacks that deal damaging conditions only proc on crit, but increase the condition duration. That way condition builds are rewarded when they invest in precision and people can’t just run full trailblazer/dire.

Imo, I think it's a wiser suggestion than cuting the condi duration by 50% or condition damage by 30%.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At best, I can see condition damage nerf with a corresponding increase to duration. To put more emphasis on damage over time as opposed to lulburst.

@"anduriell.6280" said:A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.

Though the real problem lies in certain classes ability to burst alongside their conditions, since some builds have very good power coefficients on their Condi skills allowing them to scale well with Power (So Carrion/Viper/Greiving). Meanwhile, other builds have horrible power coefficients on their Condi skills making them not burst hard at all but rely more on a Bunker playstyle where they just tank up and whittle people down with Condi's (It's notable for Necro/Scourge. All their Condi skills have trash power scaling with exception of Core Shroud 5) - Though this is already mitigated in PvP with the removal of various stat amulets (Such as Dire and Trailblazer) so only becomes an issue for WvW (But then the blob vs blob nature of the mode makes it only really notable for roaming)

On the other hand, the flip side of the situation, is in PvE where for things like Fractals, open world and various Raid/Strike bosses, Condition builds are trash because of their inability to deal enough burst damage to be useful because enemies just don't live long enough (Or have phase changes that remove conditions) for conditions to deal their full damage.

Meaning that we have an awkward situation where in one half of the game, condi builds can be considered "Too bursty" while in the other half of the game they're considered "Not bursty enough".

Of course, the simple solution is to simply nerf the PvP Condi builds that are a problem and ignore PvE.

Though, if we were to try and fix both areas, we'd need to find a way to allow for PvE Condi builds to become burstier, without causing PvP builds to become too bursty - Whilst also trying not to simply push Condi builds further towards Viper/Grieving and thus Power/Precision/Ferocity stats and thus simply becoming Power builds.

Such as removing Condi on Crit mechanics and thus the synergy with Precision and instead add in a new stat for Conditions that enables them to deal burstier damage, a stat that can be limited in availability in PvP much like how Expertise has been limited via removal of Amulets.

The trick with this approach would be trying to get the design and balance for the new stat right. Especially in a way that makes it feel more Condi-like than Power builds and can lead into Expertise's duration increase for a prominent "Damage over time" feel where appropriate (Without simply outscaling Power builds for sustained DPS and causing Power builds to be the ones that are shunned in specific content types)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

“Boons are busted right now, corruptions and boon rip were nerfed but not the boon application. A boon build will burst and also have the ability to apply boons for long periods of time.Also boon builds only need 1 stat at the moment, power. Concentration although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Boon builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any condi build.

As such this should be done to boons if we want a balanced game style.

If the boon stacks do can be specified by game mode, Boons should be reduced a 30% across all professions.If that is not achievable then the duration of every boon application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.”

Not quite accurate with the one stat bit, but you get the picture. The problem isn’t necessarily condi, it’s power creep absolutely obliterating the pacing of combat. I remember pre-HoTs seeing someone with 25 stacks of might was unreal, now it’s basically the norm. I can more or less maintain 25 might stacks solo, as a NECRO, which is just ultra stupid imo. I get that it doesn’t feel good to have someone walk up and instantly bomb you with an insane amount of condi and being unable to do anything about it, but it feels equally terrible to have someone with infinite boons walk up and absolutely glass you as an unkillable god and being unable to do anything about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@anduriell.6280 said:Conditions are busted right now, healing and cleanses were nerfed but not the condition application. A condition build will burst and also have the ability to apply damage over time for long periods of time.Also condition builds only need 1 stat at the moment, condition damage. Expertise although desired is not needed because most applications are long enough. That allows Condition builds to dedicate as much as desired to tanking stats which makes them fairly superior to any power build.

As such this should be done to conditions if we want a balanced game style.

  • If the damage stacks do can be specified by game mode, Damage should be reduced a 30% across all professions.
  • If that is not achievable then the duration of every condition application should be reduced in a 50% across all professions.

First, this is clearly PvP related. You should have tagged it as such or posted in PvP forms.

Second, outside of WvW (which is never balanced anyway), there are no amulets with toughness and condi beside celestial, which has terrible stat distribution. If I would redesign the game from scratch, I would remove condi stats all together and just make condi damage intensity tied to power. Also have it reduce much less damage, but scale with precision and ferocity. Every single MMO and ARPG I can think of has it that way. In any case, outside of WvW it is not an issue currently.

Third, sPvP stats and damage values are currently fucked. However, pre Feb condi builds were dead with the exception of mirage, necro and Guardian. And these did do well not cuz the condi damage was good, but cuz they can spam 5-6 condis over and over again. Condi intensity needed to increase. Anet instead nerfed power damage to the ground, which left condi as the only option to deal damage. I play guardian and core burn guardian is literally the only guardian build that can deal any damage in sPvP.

Point is, condi is fine in PvE. In sPvP and WvW balance and design are so fucked right now that curbing condi damage will do nothing but make sPvP even more bunker slog. There is no resolution for WvW, and I doubt there will ever be one.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Reknarok.7582" said:Not quite accurate with the one stat bit, but you get the picture. The problem isn’t necessarily condi, it’s power creep absolutely obliterating the pacing of combat. I remember pre-HoTs seeing someone with 25 stacks of might was unreal, now it’s basically the norm.

You could easily get 25 might stack pre HoT as solo ranger, elementalist and warrior. Amongst the 3, warriors and elementalists could even maintain these stacks and share them (Those 2 professions weren't the best at soloing dungeon for nothing). Only elementalist was able to really take advantage of this ability in PvP/WvW thought (warrior's might gen not being very PvP friendly and ranger's personal damage being on the "low" side pre HoT even with might).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...