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Toughness should be a deterant to conditions


Sovereign.1093

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said::3 mechanics aside. What has all these replies have to do with toughness and condi condi damage counter? Nothing. :/ Talking about stats here.

You can't talk about stats and then omit everything else. Builds don't revolve only around stats but also around skills, talents and runes/sigils.

If you want to only advocate for a change in stats as balance to condition damage and toughness, you are automatically balancing around only part of what makes a build in this game. In short: your analysis and approach is already faulty and incomplete at its core.

Not the issue I bring. Just the stat.

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fearless.3569 said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

:3 you must not have been hit by soj from a pure condi build yet.

@Virdo.1540 said:Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

There's no cleansing stat though. :/


Anyhu will try to record a vid about condi. As I've been busy lately reading comics.

I'm getting a little bored at the moment so, I may update these things once a day or so.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Fearless.3569 said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@"Fearless.3569" said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

Running full trailblazer fire weaver my burns deal about 340 dps per stack. How many stacks before you can call that "burst" damage? The passive application people frequently complain about like primordial stance, lava skin, and fire aura all have 1-2s duration on burn application. Hitting 10+ burn stacks only happens with setup and only after wearing down an opponent's defenses (and they can still stunbreak, cleanse, invuln, heal, or resistance their way out of it!). This is not "burst" unless you are a potato, in which case power will burst you far quicker anyway!

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"Fearless.3569" said:Either this or do like Power damage and split condi damage up between Condition Damage/Percision/Ferocity. Boom balance done! The fact that some condi damage tank builds does more burst and overall damage then most full glass power builds is highly imbalanced in it's own rights.

When you make these ridiculous claims it just shows how subjective this issue is. Condi does not burst. You can cleanse it even while CC'd with passive abilities like cleansing sigil. In groups you don't even need to do anything! Your supports literally spam cleanse all around you!

Maybe we need another screenshot of a player dying to 300 ticks of burning to demonstrate how little our player base knows what they're complaining about?

THats not enterilly true, every one now is condi in WvW and i can burst with some condis.... 2 condis to be exactly, one burst due people dont notice and walk the other is overperforminc easilly, and note some groups runing 2-3 draogn banners just to kill 5-10 players where they are still a bit more or similiar numbers.

Not every one plays within the coverege of 20 engies nor play classes that can run away from combat at minimal pressure.

Running full trailblazer fire weaver my burns deal about 340 dps per stack. How many stacks before you can call that "burst" damage? The passive application people frequently complain about like primordial stance, lava skin, and fire aura all have 1-2s duration on burn application. Hitting 10+ burn stacks only happens with setup and only after wearing down an opponent's defenses (and they can still stunbreak, cleanse, invuln, heal, or resistance their way out of it!). This is not "burst" unless you are a potato, in which case power will burst you far quicker anyway!

To illustrate the point:

Look at how much damage Mur deals. He is chunking my health repeatedly for 5-6k crits (and this is considered an underpowered spec, mind you!)! It's only because I absorb some of those shots with barrier from stone resonance that I'm not dead. I've applied some conditions here and there, but he's cleansing pretty effectively and you can see I am only chipping small amounts of health away from him despite the fact that he is almost certainly running berserker amulet.

It's only when I catch him off guard with a nice stun which he apparently has no stunbreak for and then land a full pyrovortex for the finish (Note: This is the same way a power build typically finishes a fight!). Even then, he takes about as much damage over 3 seconds of stun (the third tick lands for 3.1k damage on an 8 stack burn) as I take from a single one of his crits. If he had a stunbreak handy, he would have taken negligible damage, disengaged, cleansed/healed, and went back to ripping my face off!

Mur is an opponent who is out of my league and I got lucky here. But it shows that against skilled opponents condi (even the notorious burning!) is really not bursty at all. I know some builds are problematic, but this "hurr durr condi too bursty" stuff is just plain nonsense.

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@geist.4126 said:And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

I dont understand how people can actually believe this since the big power nerf patch.

What reality do you live in? Condi builds are currently way stronger than power builds.

If built properly all condition builds are just faceroll easy. Power builds take a lot more effort to actually be good.

There’s a couple outlier power builds that are strong, but overall condition builds take the cake right now.

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"Take more effort to be good". Thanks, but no. And how many roaming or zerg classes run Condi right now? Rev and Necro with Guardian as Burst Condi Option which shouldn't even be a thing when you bring cleanse. Every other professions is far better on Power builds.

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@Momekic.8603 said:

@geist.4126 said:And why should we do that? Condi is weaker as Power already.

I dont understand how people can actually believe this since the big power nerf patch.

What reality do you live in? Condi builds are currently way stronger than power builds.

If built properly all condition builds are just faceroll easy. Power builds take a lot more effort to actually be good.

There’s a couple outlier power builds that are strong, but overall condition builds take the cake right now.

Condi is easier to counter. My worst matchups 1v1 are power builds and the ones that run condi I can just swap runes and auto counter. I can't do that with power.

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As it should be, basically, equivalent to toughness:

Toughness = direct damage (reduce)Resistance (as an example) = damage to condition (reduce)

Additional note: By this I do not mean the boon "resistance"

Considering this, of course, some (or many) adjustments would have to be made, but this would open up completely new possibilities and scope - whether sigils, runes, boons, active or passive class skills, etc.

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@Sovereign.1093 :

Cleanse is unique mechanic to handle conditions.

Toughness is unique mechanic to handle power damage.

Just because they are different doesn’t mean that power builds have it harder. I can burst massive damage on power builds I could never achieve on a condition build.

Cleanse is, for better or worse, why you can’t have toughness mitigate both. Anet designed it that way. If you think you need more cleanse ask for it. But remember that the more cleanse exists the more conditions need to do burst damage. Otherwise they can’t do any damage and condition builds become completely unviable.

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Toughness should not be a counter to condi. It would buff condi bunkers as well.

Reducing condi durations, condi stacks or even making skills apply only 1 or 2 conditions max (instead of 3 + additional from traits, sigils etc).This way condi application becomes a tactical thing, instead of like it's right now when it's a spam fest with little to no skill involved.

For the people in this thread that try to defend condition damage as is right now, I'd just like to express my deepest sympathy for your loss of touch with reality.

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@"Metzie.3012" said:As it should be, basically, equivalent to toughness:

Toughness = direct damage (reduce)Resistance (as an example) = damage to condition (reduce)

Additional note: By this I do not mean the boon "resistance"

Considering this, of course, some (or many) adjustments would have to be made, but this would open up completely new possibilities and scope - whether sigils, runes, boons, active or passive class skills, etc.

Mmm add a new stat. Yes :) i can see this happening. This way vit works both ways = mitigate on power x condi.

Then toughness can be for power damage and a resistant stat for condi. Still wouldn't it be simpler that toughness does that too. :3

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condis are so easily purged, there's no need to have any further mitigation. Depending upon the build, they can be totally worthless. Furthermore, we have condi-to-boon conversion (from scrappers) that make heavy condis a liability without sufficient boon strip.

In addition, you can easily stack tanky stats with condition damage (since condis only rely upon condition damage and expertise). Power builds on the other hand rely on power, precision, and ferocity. That's only one more stat, but it has a significant impact on creating optimized builds.

Providing another mitigation to condition damage would make condis even less relevant in wvw than they are now.

UNRELATED: a more interesting conversation is tying "energy generation" to a survival stat like "vitality". This means your dodges would be coupled to your stat distribution, making pure glass builds that much glassier. Right now dodges are a get out of free card no matter the build.

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OK , The way he stated the Caption of the thread may be not the right way to say it , but what he said in his post is understandable . Some PVP players saying Condi is not a problem just get good and get condi clear traits and its not even burst that much , bro PvP have has one amulet that has toughness and Vit with condi , that is cele and its not even as strong stats as the normal cele gears in general , then pvp has 5 amulets which has vit and condi togather and No Amulet stats has expertise on it , so please don't compare your PvP dmg with WvW , showing clip that you are getting rekt by power in pvp as a condi class means nothing in wvw . And wvw players who said that condi doesn't matter i agree with you to a certain extent , you are a comped up group , have FB scrapper tempest to clear condi's plus shout warrior to top it off yea sure, its pretty useless , now problem arise when you are not comped up , or trying to take small scale fights with uneven numbers or hell trying to roam or sometimes even outnumber zerg fights . Try fighting a Trailblazer+apothecary trapper druid or a traiblazer or grieving and trailblazer mix whatever condi rev with tormenting runes , or boring cele weaver . putting a cleansing sigil on one weapon will give you 3 condi clears yes , but we are in a stage of the game specially in wvw , where a proper condi class can put 2 times more condi's on you from how much condi you can clear every sec. We always say nerf condi nerf condi , may be its time to look at stat combo instead. Think it like this , now a days to get a 8k backstab as a thief or 8k Eviscerate as a warrior or 8k worldly impact you need to heavy investment into power precision and ferocity plus you need the right power runes that gives you offensive stats other wise it not achievable and not only that you also need right buffs sometimes enemies needs to be below a certain % of their active HP, but to get a 8k burn ticks as a guard with one button press may be 2 or 4k confusion and torment as a mesmer with 3 buttons or 7k poison ticks as a thief using steal just steal, they dont need to sacrifice neither toughness nor vit, what I am trying to say yes berserker Arc Divider is broken but its also hella easy to kill it, its very easy to kite them , on the other hand base condi necro can nuke you hard and can have over 30k effective HP plus over 1.8k toughness , Condi Rev can literally 1v3 and cannot die , i tested it and its disgusting . Stats won't matter if the condi's stayedhow it use to be in past , when they uncapped it and make more skills that can put out loads of condi thats the moment these stats becomes so much stronger. Imagine making a wanderer stats( Power Toughness vit concentration) power Theif or Rev or warrior or ranger and nuke people with it , where you might never get a crit or may be get a crit like once or twice in every 20s, then imagine making condi build using trailblazer and see what perform better. i am not saying remove dire trailblazer plague doctor from the game or change the stat combo sure keep it , but then either give power class something similar power vit precision ferocity or bring Demolisher stats from pvp as an actual stat , but then we will have the problem where game will become very tanky than it is .. Think its about time Devs should look into the stat combos in wvw , like they did with PvP few years back when they removed some amulets from PvP .. I know few might agree few might not, but i dont think condi itself is the problem no, its the stats they have at their disposal when they build a condi build ..

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How many times do I gotta say the only major problem with condi is Dire/TB and some of the specific mechanics surrounding a few select builds.A bigger problem than the damage alone is control conditions are potent and get extended durations as well, which matters a lot on effects like Weakness and Immobilize, which should be the grounds for how condi builds delay fights and sustain into incoming damage.

We don't need even more RPS gameplay. We just need to have full tank builds not pumping out asinine damage and control effects/sustain (as how most condi trait lines are configured due to their DoT nature) all at the same time.

Remove Dire/TB and the problems almost entirely go away.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.Uh, that's called armor.

Talking about stats here not the armorArmor is a stat which is the combination of toughness and vitality.

Technically Armor has its own individual value that is applied to your toughness and is unrelated to vitality. The difference classes have difference base values of armor depending on rarity of gear. The only way to increase it beyond that base value is by equipping a shield.

Perhaps ironically, getting rid of your armor would not really effect a pure condition builds ability to damage you, since it ignores toughness.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:remove toughness stat to even things out. Hehe. Make vit a hybrid of toughness and vitality.Uh, that's called armor.

Talking about stats here not the armorArmor is a stat which is the combination of toughness and vitality.

Check zerker stat and Pvt on their armor attribute

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zojja%27s_Doublet

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ahamid%27s_Doublet

Armor def attribute isn't affected by vit or toughness.

Both are 330

Now toughness adds to that.

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@"Sovereign.1093" said:

Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

That would not work well (withholding the details what exactly). But also u can always increase vitality instead to do almost what you want (kinda "inverted logic"). I find it a nice theory-crafting challenge to find the perfect balance between toughness & health every time a larger balance patch hits.

But I agree there "could" be some more condition counters. After the "condi v1 meta", the dev team increased condi counters & availability for everyone. But when this "condi v2 meta" went live, the devs nerfed all condi counters first (they prolly wanted to greatly increase the "player vs player" death statistics, with little ways to counter it).

I personally dont find condi to be an overwhelming problem at the present really. Just gotta tweak your own custom touches on builds to survive.

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Armor is the sum of the defense value (light, medium, heavy) and toughness.

The defense value depends on the level of the character and the gear quality. At level 80 for ascended gear it is:

  • light armor: 967
  • medium armor: 1118
  • heavy armor: 1271

Base toughness is 1000 at level 80 so that a level 80 character has 1967, 2118 or 2271 armor.

Vitality has nothing to do with armor. It increases the health pool by 10 hp for each point - for example: +100 vita leads to +1000 hp.

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Dont think the condi dmg or application is the problem now, people should be wise enough to bring condi clears or at least have a good idea what's going on, issue is the added toughness/vitality. They shouldn't have both. Trying to even land power melee presure on a condi player with 25k health 3300 armour is the main issue I see.

What else should a condi stat have If we take away either toughness/vitality? None, mix and match like power does, some power builds take mix of cavalier/berserker/marauders if they want extra toughness/vitality

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Dont think the condi dmg or application is the problem now, people should be wise enough to bring condi clears or at least have a good idea what's going on, issue is the added toughness/vitality. They shouldn't have both. Trying to even land power melee presure on a condi player with 25k health 3300 armour is the main issue I see.

What else should a condi stat have If we take away either toughness/vitality? None, mix and match like power does, some power builds take mix of cavalier/berserker/marauders if they want extra toughness/vitality

The issue is that condis have an additional avoidance mechanism which is cleansing. For defense against power attacks, you have total armor, maximum health pool, dodges, and heals/regens. For condi you have all of that and then cleanses too. It's really a less effective build to go pure condi. So is it really an issue that they can also roll with anti-power stats at the same time?

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