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The Commander's Psyche, an open question.


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I play a sylvari male. He seems... tired. Just done. Obviously in the heat of battle and while trying to protect people all that goes out the window, but when the smoke clears and the room goes quiet... He feels the weight of everything that's happened and--ThAt'S VAluAbLe!!!

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I ended up rambling. Super-long ramble under the spoiler.TL;DR: The Commander's an unstable mess and "tired" barely even begins to cover it, especially for sylvari Commanders. Poor them. :(

! I'm about 2/3rds of the way through Path of Fire, and so far the male sylvari Commander just seems utterly bone-weary over everything that's happened. Despairing, even. Fraying at the edges whenever something new inevitably goes wrong. I get the distinct impression he's just barely keeping it together. The events of Season Three really hit him hard, but he's still trying his hardest not to let it show...and failing, more often than not.!! Can't speak in-depth for the other potential PCs, but going off of other peoples' comments, I think the sylvari Commander (male or female) sounds so dead tired and depressed because they are. Keep in mind, a sylvari PC has been fighting the dragons - and the world - since they were in the Dream, almost nonstop for...how many years has it been since the personal story started? Seven, eight years now? The sylvari PC has never known the world at a time of peace, unlike the other PCs who are at least young adults by the time the personal story starts, and while they've undoubtedly had various traumatic or difficult times in their life prior to the start of the story, they haven't been fighting for the survival of the world since before birth like the sylvari PC. On top of that, the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt boiled down to "kill the Elder Dragons."[1] And now they've learned that, nope, you can't do that...you'll end up destroying the world. So the thing they've been subconsciously driven toward since their earliest moment of awareness in the Dream, their literal reason for existence, turns out to be a bad thing and something to avoid. That would definitely leave some serious scars on one's psyche. (That and the whole Mordremoth thing... Heart of Thorns did a number on the sylvari PC.)!! Even in the case of the other PCs, they've still been fighting constantly for seven or eight years, and nothing really seems to go right for them. Allies, friends, and mentors die frequently, the world is constantly doomed, and the Commander is often the accidental cause of that doom (or at the least inadvertently exacerbates it). That would take a massive toll on anyone, even the bred-for-war charr or fight-happy norn.!! To be honest (without knowing the plot beyond PoF aside from "yet more bad things happen and the world's doomed because of course it is"), I think the Commander is one more catastrophe away from just snapping entirely, and who knows what form that "snap" could take? Yelling at allies and alienating them? Striking out alone because they feel they can't rely on anyone else? Going flat-out insane and actually attacking people (like the sylvari PC very nearly did in Heart of Thorns thanks to Mordremoth messing with their head)? Dragon corruption is a danger... Who knows? It could be a fascinating plot to explore...!! [1] What happened to that supposed Wyld Hunt, anyway? Trahearne and the sylvari PC, back in Season Two, figured out the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt was not to kill Zhaitan or Mordremoth, but ALL of the Elder Dragons. Was that plot point quietly dropped (haven't encountered it since), or is our poor sylvari PC still being driven onward by an impossible Wyld Hunt?

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@Batel.9206 said:

! [1] What happened to that supposed Wyld Hunt, anyway? Trahearne and the sylvari PC, back in Season Two, figured out the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt was not to kill Zhaitan or Mordremoth, but ALL of the Elder Dragons. Was that plot point quietly dropped (haven't encountered it since), or is our poor sylvari PC still being driven onward by an impossible Wyld Hunt?

You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

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The s5 ep1 boss fight makes me wonder what team the Human commander is rooting for. When Braham tries to confirm that the group won't listen to Jormag, every other comander imediately replies "right". The Human commander, on the other hand, hesitates.

The Human commander has always seemed tired since Lws3 ep3, when Braham rejected them and the only one who stuck by the commander was Taimi. After that, it's just a conga line of tragedy that's kind of jaded the character.

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@"Fenella.2634" said:First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.@Obliviscaris.6937 said:The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.Damn. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

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I think the Commander already had a very literal reset moment during PoF - briefly forgot who they were, and had no idea where they were at the time. Not going to spoil it, but it should be fairly obvious (for those of us who played through it) what I'm getting at. After that point, in my head the Commander might indeed get physically exhausted from time to time, but got something of a fresh start again.

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@XenoSpyro.1780 said:

@"Fenella.2634" said:First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.@Obliviscaris.6937 said:The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.kitten. If only we had a
system
in place that adjusted a characters
personality
or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential.

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@Obliviscaris.6937 said:

@"Fenella.2634" said:First, I think people are taking Joko's trash talking way too seriously. ;)Especially, since the PC has an ace card that trumps Joko's "don't kill dragons" speech. Aurene.@Obliviscaris.6937 said:The moment my character turned down the Elonian wine from Zalambur at the casino meeting, I knew she was not well.kitten. If only we had a
system
in place that adjusted a characters
personality
or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.

Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential.

Indeed. I forget where, but I also mentioned that old system in some discussion about possibly giving players more story choices that - while ultimately not affecting the overall story events - still allowed players to develop the Commander's personality as they saw fit. Yet another bit of wasted potential, another system ANet does its best to ignore rather than capitalize on. That approach is slowly killing the game.

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@anninke.7469 said:You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

@"Westenev.5289" said:The s5 ep1 boss fight makes me wonder what team the Human commander is rooting for. When Braham tries to confirm that the group won't listen to Jormag, every other comander imediately replies "right". The Human commander, on the other hand, hesitates.

The Human commander has always seemed tired since Lws3 ep3, when Braham rejected them and the only one who stuck by the commander was Taimi. After that, it's just a conga line of tragedy that's kind of jaded the character.

There's a pause for all of them.

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"kitten. If only we had a system in place that adjusted a characters personality or behavior based on your actions or choices. Can't quite put my finger on it.3"Gosh I remember that. Such a waste of potential."

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Personality Here you go. Sad the system has been removed. I know I would like to play the bad guy following each time the worst decisions. And affecting the world around. At least there are a few objects and quests that allow me to kill pacific npcs, that's my only fun. Nah, not gonna say where!

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the flesh wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

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@anninke.7469 said:

@anninke.7469 said:You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the
flesh
wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay all Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@anninke.7469 said:You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the
flesh
wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay
all
Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

Out of curiosity, has the Wyld Hunt been mentioned since then? I never got around to playing very far into the story with a Sylvari character. Would be interesting to know how Aurene fits into the "destroy Elder Dragons" Wyld Hunt.

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@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:Out of curiosity, has the Wyld Hunt been mentioned since then? I never got around to playing very far into the story with a Sylvari character. Would be interesting to know how Aurene fits into the "destroy Elder Dragons" Wyld Hunt.

Nope, completely ignored throughout S3, PoF, and S4. Don't think there's been a mention of it in S5 yet. Technically it's also ignored in HoT too, like a few too many things from S2, like the Priory explorer trio.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Nope, completely ignored throughout S3, PoF, and S4. Don't think there's been a mention of it in S5 yet. Technically it's also ignored in HoT too, like a few too many things from S2, like the Priory explorer trio.

Thank you. That's a question I've been wanting to have answered for a long while now (since, as I mentioned earlier, I haven't gotten all the way through the story yet)...I hope it's finally addressed at some point, but I won't keep my fingers crossed.

Edit: Also, since I'm the one who originally asked "what happened to the sylvari PC's Wyld Hunt?" and got us all started chasing that rabbit trail, sorry for getting the thread so off-topic. :flushed:

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It honestly wouldn't surprise me if ANet ends up going "the wyld hunt feeling to kill Mordremoth was actually Mordremoth trying to trick the Commander into coming after them so that he could turn them" or something. If Mordremoth believed he could convert the Pact Commander (which would be one hell of a feat if so), it would explain why Mordremoth would allow Faolain to guide them to the Heart of Thorns during Bitter Harvest.

For non-sylvari, it would be changed to wanting to capture the Commander by bringing them into the heart of their domain with little backup so that the Commander could be overwhelmed, but he didn't expect the Pact to work their way through the Dragon's Stand lanes at the same time, distracting him of the Commander's progress.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@anninke.7469 said:You know what? I actually came to believe that this so called Wyld Hunt to kill dragons is a big fat LIE. I mean, the first WH starting your personal story was believable. But the dragon fighting? Come on, it was the Shadow of the Dragon we fought and I really think that the Pale Tree just covered the truth by making the incident into supposed dragon killing Wyld Hunt. And anything figured out in S2 is suspicious at least... (And just to be clear all this is my personal speculation and feelings, nothing I claim to be canonical or dev-intended.)

The Pale Tree wasn't the one who said it meant fighting Zhaitan. It was Mender Serimon. Why would Serimon cover up a truth he didn't know?

Oh yeah, he does talk about an early Wyld Hunt. I kinda totally forgot about him (shame, considering I talk to him pretty much every week. Sorry, Serimon). However he might have simply been misled by the PC speaking about the Dream calling upon to them to beat the threat in there. He's a mender, not a Wyld Hunt expert. And he doesn't even mention the Elder Dragon. Or any other dragon.

What I had in mind happens at the end of the level 10 PS when the PC talks to the Pale Tree who says that yes, your Wyld Hunt is to fight the Elder Dragon. That's what I consider a lie from our dear Pale Mother. Ever since having met the Shadow of the Dragon in the
flesh
wood and bark. Or at least that's how my main sees it. Guess that's what happens when one gentle ranger soul goes from "all things have a right to grow" to "and now we kill, kill and kill some more for there's no other way".

To counter your argument further: At the end of the personal story, Caithe and the sylvari PC talk about completing the Wyld Hunt:

Caithe: Congratulations, Commander. Our shared Wyld Hunt started together, so it's fitting that we end it together. We've more to do, but for now, rejoice: this victory will become part of the Dream.Sylvari Commander: Let's hope it inspires the next generation of sylvari.

And during The World Summit in Season 2, Trahearne and the sylvari PC bring it up again, saying that it's returned with an extended task, to kill Mordremoth:

Trahearne: The things we see in our Dream have a way of coming around. Your wyld hunt... Do you feel the call yet?Syvari Commander: I haven't for some time, but I feel it now. Is this a new one?Trahearne: It is the same one. You helped to destroy Zhaitan, but that did not complete your wyld hunt. The next phase is beginning.Syvari Commander: The Elder Dragons...Mordremoth.

Taking it all in, and the Wyld Hunt seems to be to slay
all
Elder Dragons, Zhaitan was just the first.

TBH, Caithe saying whatever is not much trustworthy either in this particular case, the PC just doesn't know it yet at the end of PS. Still the "kill Zhaitan WH" is something that came from Mordremoth attacking the Dream. And retrospectively it felt like the PC got that one convenietly dumped on their head because they were there and to stop them from being too curious.

However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

Last but not least - again, I don't claim that what I said is in any way objective, fact based or canonical. It's mostly how I feel my main toon feels about this stuff after years of running around saving the world in a way painfully incompatible with his initial view of life, while also blaming himself for failing to save his dearest friend and having to kill him.

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@"anninke.7469" said:Still the "kill Zhaitan WH" is something that came from Mordremoth attacking the Dream.

The Shadow of the Dragon was witnessed by many sylvari, and all sylvari who witness the Shadow of the Dragon have Wyld Hunts to fight any Elder Dragons' minions.

The PC is the only one who saw the Shadow of the Dragon and got a Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, but they're not the only sylvari to see it and get an Elder Dragon-related Wyld Hunt.

The sylvari are a young race, yet they face challenges from within and without. A rare few sylvari have seen the shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream, warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world. As a result, the sylvari perceive the global threat posed by the Elder Dragons more clearly than the other races. Undead minions of Zhaitan crawl from the Sea of Sorrows to despoil sylvari land with alarming frequency.https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/races/sylvari/

However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

If the Dream's intention was to prevent sylvari from finding out about their origins, then why would it outright tell Wynne about their origins? Besides, the Dream does actively send out many Wyld Hunts to counter every Elder Dragon and their minions, even Mordremoth; and as said, it [partially] does so via the Shadow of the Dragon.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The Shadow of the Dragon was witnessed by many sylvari, and all sylvari who witness the Shadow of the Dragon have Wyld Hunts to fight any Elder Dragons' minions.

The PC is the only one who saw the Shadow of the Dragon and got a Wyld Hunt to kill Zhaitan, but they're not the only sylvari to see it and get an Elder Dragon-related Wyld Hunt.

The sylvari are a young race, yet they face challenges from within and without. A rare few sylvari have seen the
shadows of the Elder Dragons in the Dream,
warnings of the danger that menaces the awakened world. As a result, the sylvari perceive the global threat posed by the Elder Dragons more clearly than the other races. Undead minions of Zhaitan crawl from the Sea of Sorrows to despoil sylvari land with alarming frequency.

Might be a cause of "shadows of the Elder Dragons" vs this particular Shadow of the Dragon who later makes its appearance with this exact name.

However, maybe it would be more accurate to say that the percieved lie problem is not only about the Pale Tree but also (maybe even more) about the whole Dream. Over the years the two of them gradually lost credibility. I'm not really questioning what the PC's Wyld Hunt is (now), I'm questioning what it truly was supposed to be and how much it got intentionally twisted by... let's say good intentions at the beginning. And even if all the oh-so-noble Wyld Hunt stuff is just there to try and shut up/keep busy possible troublemakers.

If the Dream's intention was to prevent sylvari from finding out about their origins, then why would it outright tell Wynne about their origins? Besides, the Dream does actively send out many Wyld Hunts to counter every Elder Dragon and their minions, even Mordremoth; and as said, it [partially] does so via the Shadow of the Dragon.

That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)

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@"anninke.7469" said:That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.

The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.

Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

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@anninke.7469 said:That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

I would theorize that the Dream wanted to ensure that there was discussion on the course of action between the Pale Tree and sylvari, which happened. It was eventually found out before the end of Season 2, albeit only by Scarlet, who decided to keep quiet as well (while she was still in control of herself and wanting to confront Mordremoth, likely because she knew of the chaos it would cause that would hinder fighting Mordremoth, while after succumbing to Mordremoth, to serve Mordremoth's plan).

@anninke.7469 said:Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.Well, Caithe being sent in was done by the Pale Tree.

@anninke.7469 said:The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

@anninke.7469 said:

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

Hard to say if it's "too much", since we have far too little knowledge of the Dream of Dreams. It does seem to have some degree of sentience though, given that it is what gives out Wyld Hunts - same for the Nightmare, which gives out Dark Hunts - and these Hunts seem to be working towards and overarching something (that something for Nightmare seems to be its spread over the Dream).

My theory of what the Dream and Nightmare are goes to this line by the Pale Tree:

Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/A_Light_in_the_Darkness

If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.Well, we agree on one thing at least. The Dream being some sort of magical collective (sub)conscious of the planet is one of the most suitable answers to what the Dream is.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@anninke.7469 said:That's one of the things not making sense with the Dream and the Pale Tree. The Dream wants the sylvari to know, so it tells Wynne. But still the sylvari don't get to know, because the Pale Tree and Wynne decide they shouldn't and Caithe plays along when she learns about it. But if the Dream really wanted them to know, why didn't it tell others? So was it really intended? Was telling Wynne an accidental slip? In that case, keeping it secret would make sense but can still feel like "I was lied to for years and look where it got me (and Trahearne)" for a sylvari PC. On the other hand, if the sylvari were supposed to know, why the heck did those three ladies keep it secret? And considering how the Pale Tree says that she's just a caretaker and that one shouldn't question the Dream, that feels even worse.

I would theorize that the Dream wanted to ensure that there was discussion on the course of action between the Pale Tree and sylvari, which happened. It was eventually found out before the end of Season 2, albeit only by Scarlet, who decided to keep quiet as well (while she was still in control of herself and wanting to confront Mordremoth, likely because she knew of the chaos it would cause that would hinder fighting Mordremoth, while after succumbing to Mordremoth, to serve Mordremoth's plan).

Might as well be the case, the alternative can be seen if you watch from the outside. Being in a thread about the Commander's psyche, I took the liberty to use my PC's headcanoned viewpoint on being dragged into the unpleasant events this caused and all the other stuff afterwards.

@anninke.7469 said:Another thing is, the Shadow of the Dragon we fight in tutorial is hardly just "seen" or "shown by the Dream". After all, Caithe had to be sent there to help stop it and sending already awakened sylvari back doesn't seem to be very common occurence.Well, Caithe being sent in was done by the Pale Tree.

This doesn't turn the very real attack on the Dream from the outside into a common Wyld Hunt sign, imo. Especially if the Pale Tree (knows) sends in specifically Caithe (knows too).

What I'm trying to say is it looks like the PC fighing the Shadow of the Dragon wasn't a vision/symbol of their Wyld Hunt, but they were given the ED Wyld Hunt because they got to fight the Shadow of the Dragon in the Dream, which had to be explained without revealing the truth about Mordremoth (too soon).

@anninke.7469 said:The Dream actively giving anti-ED Wyld Hunts, even if generally useful, could still be just a way of keeping the restless busy. Because the Dreams motivations and goals are a complete mystery. (Unless the goal was getting rid of its boss and playing with the minions by it's own rules.)Mordremoth doesn't control the Dream, that's made clear with HoT. Mordremoth, the Dream, and Nightmare are three separate entities. Like the Pale Tree and White Stag, Mordremoth merely has a strong connection to the Dream and can "hijack" its channels.

I don't claim it does. This is based on my probably slightly tinfoil-hat-ish theory that the Dream might be the purified dragon champion instead of the Pale Tree and it might want to get rid of it's former boss for good. Also, I think that the Dream and the Nightmare are not necessarily separate entities but more of a split-personality thing where one side refuses to accept and deal with traits represented by the other. Still not sure where to put the Pale Tree, though. The White Stag is... well, it's still waiting right next to my new kitchen's butcher table. How convenient...

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I think this is giving the Dream too much sentience.Even sapience actually. After all, if there's an entity deciding what I should do with my life, I'd rather it was a sapient one.And what if the purified Mordy's champion is not the Pale Tree, but the Dream? You know, mind dragon - mind champion.

Hard to say if it's "too much", since we have far too little knowledge of the Dream of Dreams. It does seem to have
some
degree of sentience though, given that it is what gives out Wyld Hunts - same for the Nightmare, which gives out Dark Hunts - and these Hunts seem to be working towards and overarching something (that something for Nightmare seems to be its spread over the Dream).

My theory of what the Dream and Nightmare are goes to this line by the Pale Tree:

Avatar of the Tree: The soul of Tyria mourned as her children were cut down by the beast. The land wept, and the world shuddered.

If her line is meant to take even partially literal, how would she know what the "soul of Tyria" felt or how it reacted? Throughout that story instance, the Pale Tree seems to show a fairly high association with the "feelings of the lands", so to speak, which makes me think the Dream and Nightmare may be the... sentience of Tyria, so to speak.

This goes a bit in line with Scarlet's rendition of The All, which draws the Pale Tree in the center - what if the center isn't meant to be the Pale Tree, but what the Pale Tree has access to: the Dream of Dreams. This also explains the vision of Omadd's Machine where we go through the Pale Tree to witness the All - that is, since we're following Scarlet's path/vision from when she was in Omadd's Machien, we're using the Pale Tree's connection of the Dream to witness the soul of Tyria, that is the heart of The All.

To be honest, I find this Pale Tree's line so over-dramatic that I didn't even consider taking it into account... Look who's a nasty cynical hag, I guess :)

However, if the Dream of Dreams is really meant to be what you think it may be, then we should definitely get more sings pointing to it so it's not just another hinted but never really used and then completely forgotten thing.

That's my theory at least. If it holds any water, we'll be returning to the topic of the Dream and Nightmare soon as we delve deeper into the histories and natures of the Elder Dragons.

Yes, that would be awesome. I really hope it happens. Just maybe a little sooner than soon .

Edit: Oh my, I totally didn't expect the word for an ugly witch to be kittenified...

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