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Forced to grind levels, even on a paid account?


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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

The difference now is that it might seem that way because you get all the story steps at once, and then a whole lot of nothing. While before they were distributed between the level. Access for the personal vanilla story was always level based though.

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I can guarantee you I am not remembering incorrectly, because I never purposely farmed hearts.

I never went out in a map specifically to "Level" to unlock the next story step.

I only focused on levelling so it was possible for me to complete the mission that I already failed because I was not capable at my currently level to finish.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

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@"ConorT.5396" said:I can guarantee you I am not remember incorrectly, because I never purposely farmed hearts.

I never went out in a map specifically to "Level" to unlock the next story step.

I only focused on levelling so it was possible for me to complete the mission that I already failed because I was not capable at my currently level to finish.

Yes, you never farmed hearts for a game which was new to you. Where you probably explored, gathered, etc. not noticing how the exp accumulated.

FYI: the experience needed for level 1-15 was even reduced. I believe with NPE.

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Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@"Naxos.2503" said:To be fair :

Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

Just another note on this - lots of people are now leaving WoW because they are unhappy with the direction of the game.

Do you really expect 10+ year WoW veterans to come to GW2 and milk cows, open lobster pots & clean up Graffiti just to progress the story line?

I have never seen anything so patronising to new players moving from other MMO's.

I dont see how this is related ?

I've stated facts, and given my opinion. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. The facts that have been leveled are :

-There used to be no restrictions, and now there is one.

-It is easy to level up enough to complete the storyline without grinding, by simply exploring naturally toward the next quest objective. Rushing to do Only the storyline is as "natural" a progression as grinding is, so I dont see how being able to do all story without the level required is natural in any way. It's trading one extreme for another.

Opinions that have been leveled :-To you, the game was better when it was not limited. I haven't seen players mentionning that it wasn't, but it remains an opinion nonetheless.

-According to you there is a player drop due to this limitation, but based on your own words, you haven't actively played with that content for over 7 years. Over 7 years, many events occured which did cause player drops : Any living story incurs a drop because they are not expansions, for one. Not to mention there is a natural decrease of players over the years, for a MMo nearly a decade old (Notable compared to plenty of other MMos who dont apply said limitation). I dont think you can realistically infer that this limitation is causing new players not to be playing. Of all the new players I've followed, none of them did not make it to level 80 within a month. I very much doubt that has been an issue for them beside reaching level 10, which yes it is true is a negative experience to most : Being locked in a map, and be unable to visit lion's arch until level ... 25 ? 30 ? I forgot. It's not pleasant. But that doesn't significantly impact their playthroughs. My take is : The drops in players cannot be reasonably inputted to this restriction. There has been numerous -proven- drops of players due to other elements, and that element in particular has never came up before as one where players have quit over it. It doesn't mean it couldn't be softened or abolished. But opinions are opinions, and facts are facts.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

And how is this not a better system overall?

Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

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@"ConorT.5396" said:Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

Yes, and doing all the story steps now will yield around 3-4 levels too.

Listen, most of us have years of experience and characters leveled. You are misremembering. The experience required was only reduced 1nce for 1-15. Otherwise the experience gain is pretty much similar as back during vanilla.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

And how is this not a better system overall?

Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@Naxos.2503 said:To be fair :

Experience is ridiculously easy to get, generally just going to the quest area and doing things on the way is enough to cover it

Just another note on this - lots of people are now leaving WoW because they are unhappy with the direction of the game.

Do you really expect 10+ year WoW veterans to come to GW2 and milk cows, open lobster pots & clean up Graffiti just to progress the story line?

I have never seen anything so patronising to new players moving from other MMO's.

I dont see how this is related ?

I've stated facts, and given my opinion. Facts are facts, and opinions are opinions. The facts that have been leveled are :

-There used to be no restrictions, and now there is one.

-It is easy to level up enough to complete the storyline without grinding, by simply exploring naturally toward the next quest objective. Rushing to do Only the storyline is as "natural" a progression as grinding is, so I dont see how being able to do all story without the level required is natural in any way. It's trading one extreme for another.

Opinions that have been leveled :-To you, the game was better when it was not limited. I haven't seen players mentionning that it wasn't, but it remains an opinion nonetheless.

-According to you there is a player drop due to this limitation, but based on your own words, you haven't actively played with that content for over 7 years. Over 7 years, many events occured which did cause player drops : Any living story incurs a drop because they are not expansions, for one. Not to mention there is a natural decrease of players over the years, for a MMo nearly a decade old (Notable compared to plenty of other MMos who dont apply said limitation). I dont think you can realistically infer that this limitation is causing new players not to be playing. Of all the new players I've followed, none of them did not make it to level 80 within a month. I very much doubt that has been an issue for them beside reaching level 10, which yes it is true is a negative experience to most : Being locked in a map, and be unable to visit lion's arch until level ... 25 ? 30 ? I forgot. It's not pleasant. But that doesn't significantly impact their playthroughs. My take is : The drops in players cannot be reasonably inputted to this restriction. There has been numerous -proven- drops of players due to other elements, and that element in particular has never came up before has one where players have quit over it. It doesn't mean it couldn't be softened or abolished. But opinions are opinions, and facts are facts.

Nice post, I'm going to work to respond to each point because I REALLY WANT TO BE PROVEN WRONG ON MY DISLIKE FOR ANET RIGHT NOW.

  1. I do not care "How easy it is to level up" - that will never rule out the fact that level restrictions to move on the story is not part of the Guild Wars universe - and it should never be.

  2. I have not yet met a person, who is joining the game out of my 400 active member guild that likes the level-gate between core story.

  3. The player drop - is just a fact. And I just do not want aNet to mould the game into somthing that becomes a generic MMO that no one is interest in playing. aNet's niche has always been story telling - not grinding heart quests.

I never blamed the drop in players on the restriction. I blamed the acquisition drop of new experienced MMORPG players on this level-gate.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:Yes, but the levels gained during completing the story - would give you the majority of the required experience.

And if not, the Waypoints gained from running from A to B would do it.

That is completely different from saying "Grind 10 more levels, and you can continue this amazing story you have just started".

Yes, and doing all the story steps now will yield around 3-4 levels too.

Listen, most of us have years of experience and characters leveled. You are misremembering. The experience required was only reduced 1nce for 1-15. Otherwise the experience gain is pretty much similar as back during vanilla.

During my original play through of Guild Wars 2. I was never told I could not play a story-line mission because my level was too low.

If I was, I would be as furious then as I am now.

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I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

And how is this not a better system overall?

Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

But gated to a point where the player could almost never hit it unless he was paying someone to run him through it at warp speed?

Okay, I understand a gate / restriction like that.

But compared to what we have now? How is that comparable?

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@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

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And the reason I play Guild Wars and no other MMO is because I have never been forced to open lobster pots, milk cows or clean Graffiti.

The game to me, seems to have been ruined, the flow broken, the immersion destroyed. Just to hand-hold players who cannot read the recommended level for a mission?

Can someone please tell me what I am missing here?

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What we need to remember RIGHT NOW, that MMORPGS are not new, and in 2020 they are becoming incredible from new releases.

No one wants to do repetitive tasks.

Guild Wars to me, was always timeless because it never required that.

Now it is on the road to the afterlife because of this.

In an era where game developers can build a game that matches & surpasses Guild Wars 2 within 18 months of development. Should we not be LOOKING FORWARD.

For exciting game play, rather than gating people behind a "grind".

The definition of "grind" has changed. I have played many MMORPGS through my life, I have spent 12 hours killing the same mob to get a level, but that is not what gamers want these days.

Gamers want what Guild Wars 1 offered.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

And how is this not a better system overall?

Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

But gated to a point where the player could almost never hit it unless he was paying someone to run him through it at warp speed?

Okay, I understand a gate / restriction like that.

But compared to what we have now? How is that comparable?

Honestly, I think you are just rushing the story a lot more now than back then.

Yes, most people do not like the story steps being concentrated this way. It actually used to be a general guide for players where to go and which areas to visit. Which is likely also where you made a lot more experience while playing naturally instead of now rushing from one quest step to the next.

As mentioned, the experience gains/requirements have remained the same: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ExperienceGiven they are % based off of character level and have not changed. You need just as much experience now as back during vanilla.

The leveling process is the shortest among pretty much all MMORPGs on the market. If this is really such a huge issue and you are not enjoying the game between story steps, the question you should be asking yourself is: should you be playing this game to begin with?

@ConorT.5396 said:For exciting game play, rather than gating people behind a "grind".

The definition of "grind" has changed. I have played many MMORPGS through my life, I have spent 12 hours killing the same mob to get a level, but that is not what gamers want these days.

Nothing in this games leveling experience to 80 is even remotely a grind. None of the MMORPGs, even the ones coming out the last years or this year or next year will be even remotely as fast to get max level as GW2. What you are looking at is games from other genres.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:Yes, maybe it would have been impossible to beat them - but the freedom to challenge yourself by playing personal story 20+ levels higher than your own level was part of the Guild Wars charm.

That was never possible. Enemies 10 levels above your character level become literally immune to your attacks. Not reduced damage, but immune.

The New Player Experience, with all its faults, did change and push multiple story steps onto the level 10 steps, but those story steps were otherwise distributed between the next 10 levels. You were never able to level ahead of your character level.

Well, when I say "20 levels above" - I am talking from 7 year old memory.

Perhaps it was 5, perhaps it was 8.

But the point still stands. We had the freedom to try.

You had the freedom to play story steps which now are gated behind the next 10 level step. You were never able to play the story beyond your characters level. You are remembering incorrectly.

Are you saying, that no where in the history of Guild Wars 2 - you could play through the story without been stopped by a level-gate?

Ruling out the fact of failing from trying.

I'm saying before the story steps were condensed to every 10 levels, they were distributed between those next 10 levels. You would gradually unlock each step while leveling instead of getting them all at once.

And how is this not a better system overall?

Spread across 10 levels instead of straight up gated? It gives a gradual release of content.

I'm not saying the new system is better. I actually dislike this change myself. I'm saying the story was always gated behind character level.

But gated to a point where the player could almost never hit it unless he was paying someone to run him through it at warp speed?

Okay, I understand a gate / restriction like that.

But compared to what we have now? How is that comparable?

Honestly, I think you are just rushing the story a lot more now than back then.

Yes, most people do not like the story steps being concentrated this way. It actually used to be a general guide for players where to go and which areas to visit. Which is likely also where you made a lot more experience while playing naturally instead of now rushing from one quest step to the next.

As mentioned, the experience gains/requirements have remained the same:
Given they are % based off of character level and have not changed. You need just as much experience now as back during vanilla.

The leveling process is the shortest among pretty much all MMORPGs on the market. If this is really such a huge issue and you are not enjoying the game between story steps, the question you should be asking yourself is: should you be playing this game to begin with?

You are likely right, I am wanting to get to the interesting parts of the game more so now, than when I first played.

I can remember my joy of escorting the pack-bull through Queensdale.

I wouldn't do that now.

But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

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@"ConorT.5396" said:But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

I doubt GW2 has any issue to compete with ANY other MMORPG as far as leveling time being required. This game is by far the fastest to get to max level and it's not even close. That's without even "speeding" or "rushing" to 80.

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