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@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

I doubt GW2 has any issue to compete with ANY other MMORPG as far as leveling time being required. This game is by far the fastest to get to max level and it's not even close. That's without even "speeding" or "rushing" to 80.

But I have always stressed this to EVERY FRIEND, that has moved from another MMORPG - to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2 is not about the effort of levelling, its about the enjoyment during levelling.

But this mechanic has just proven everything I have ever said about Guild Wars 2 - wrong.

Has aNet done this just to sell more level 80 boosts on the Black Lion? This is just something I thought of right now, but I cannot think of any other valid reason.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"ConorT.5396" said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

Honestly, I love Guild Wars 2 combat more than anyone else.

But after killing 2/3 champions on a map, defending a way point & then stopping a few waves of Centaur.

Anyone would be bored to repeat that?

I actually had a friend say to me today - "Wow the voice acting is great and I love where the story is going" even during the Krytan politics chapter.

Then he got gated, he was hugely disappointed.

Guild Wars is about the STORY TELLING - not the grind.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:But neither will other MMORPG players who are moving from other games where they have spent 10+ years doing a very similar thing.

I doubt GW2 has any issue to compete with ANY other MMORPG as far as leveling time being required. This game is by far the fastest to get to max level and it's not even close. That's without even "speeding" or "rushing" to 80.

But I have always stressed this to EVERY FRIEND, that has moved from another MMORPG - to Guild Wars 2.

Guild Wars 2 is not about the effort of levelling, its about the enjoyment during levelling.

If they aren't enjoying the leveling, you have your answer. No one ever said rushing the story was leveling. The story has always been part of the leveling experience, not the sole component. Again, the experience required has not changed.

@ConorT.5396 said:But this mechanic has just proven everything I have ever said about Guild Wars 2 - wrong.

Has aNet done this just to sell more level 80 boosts on the Black Lion? This is just something I thought of right now, but I cannot think of any other valid reason.

No. You were simply selling an idea which was not true and was never true, while at the same time not being prepared to make the experience interesting enough within the frame of the game.

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The more I think about this, the more I realise the reason this was done.

aNet could not live up to the set expectation of end-game content.

So they force everyone to spend as much time as possible grinding in the game. That is my only viable explanation. But there has been some good posts here & thank you all for helping me figure out how my favourite game development company could literally cut its nose off to spite its face.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

So your point is completely invalid.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

Honestly, I love Guild Wars 2 combat more than anyone else.

But after killing 2/3 champions on a map, defending a way point & then stopping a few waves of Centaur.

Anyone would be bored to repeat that?

I actually had a friend say to me today - "Wow the voice acting is great and I love where the story is going" even during the Krytan politics chapter.

Then he got gated, he was hugely disappointed.

Guild Wars is about the STORY TELLING - not the grind.

So your not mapping, your not visiting other zones, your not introducing them into world bosses, your not doing any of the jumping puzzles, your not setting any goals or trying to do any of the achievements, nor are you exploring all the nooks and crannies of the zone(s) and consequently gaining all the xp that would be needed to keep progressing in the story, your not doing anything BUT story. Wow your missing out on ALOT of the games charm even without doing hearts arent you.

The rose colored glasses you have on are keeping you from enjoying anything but your nostalgia friend. So they changed the personal story so that newer player have a chance to not get curb stomped by overpowered enemies. This is not the first time any MMO has done such gating to keep the players enjoying the game and maybe doing other things that they might enjoy as well as or more than just grinding out the story. Progression is a thing in all MMO's including story.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

Just 2 points here:

  1. Both are Paid Accounts
  2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

So your point is completely invalid.

The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

EDIT:While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

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@Head Kracker.4790 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

Honestly, I love Guild Wars 2 combat more than anyone else.

But after killing 2/3 champions on a map, defending a way point & then stopping a few waves of Centaur.

Anyone would be bored to repeat that?

I actually had a friend say to me today - "Wow the voice acting is great and I love where the story is going" even during the Krytan politics chapter.

Then he got gated, he was hugely disappointed.

Guild Wars is about the STORY TELLING - not the grind.

So your not mapping, your not visiting other zones, your not introducing them into world bosses, your not doing any of the jumping puzzles, your not setting any goals or trying to do any of the achievements, nor are you exploring all the nooks and crannies of the zone(s) and consequently gaining all the xp that would be needed to keep progressing in the story, your not doing anything BUT story. Wow your missing out on ALOT of the games charm even without doing hearts arent you.

The rose colored glasses you have on are keeping you from enjoying anything but your nostalgia friend. So they changed the personal story so that newer player have a chance to not get curb stomped by overpowered enemies. This is not the first time any MMO has done such gating to keep the players enjoying the game and maybe doing other things that they might enjoy as well as or more than just grinding out the story. Progression is a thing in all MMO's including story.

Having to say to a friend, lets run around Way Points to gain you experiences so you do not need to milk the cows. Is not great I am afraid, Way points used to be discovered naturally while travelling from one area to another trying to get to the next chapter of a story.

Regarding jumping puzzles, yes - I do these. I have even built a jumping puzzle in my guild hall built out of Super clouds to train new members to do jumping puzzles so they can continue to "Grind".

I still find it difficult to believe anyone in the Guild Wars community can justify this gating.

I would prefer to be curbed stomped by enemies so I can say to new players, OKAY LETS GO AND GET STRONGER. Than having a straight up restriction on trying, and then we do get there at the "Recommended Level" we barely break a sweat.

Still crazy to me.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

So your point is completely invalid.

The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

EDIT:While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

Nice attempt at a direct insult on my in-game experience because you literally have nothing else to come back at me with to justify this change to the game which is causing damage to the community.

Maybe I am not the most experienced player in terms of achievement points, mastery points or legendary weapons, but I have run a guild that helps people learn the game for over 15 years since Guild Wars 1.

I know what people expect from Guild Wars. A gate on progressing the personal story is not it.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

Just 2 points here:
  1. Both are Paid Accounts
  2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

Alright. I clearly mentionned it would be trading an extreme for another. You have willfully ignored that, not to mention disregarding the rest of my advice. At that point, I refuse to continue discussing. I give advice in good faith, and get answers in bad faith that twist what I state. I concur with Cyninja. The game is fine, you're probably not particularly good at showcasing it to new players.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

So your point is completely invalid.

The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

EDIT:While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

I have come up with a couple of theories tonight, I have never claimed any of them to be fact. These include aNet trying to make money from selling 80 boosts to Bypass the grinding.

I am still trying to figure this out, not tell you what it is or what it isn't.

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@ConorT.5396 said:

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

Even though part of my frustration is nostalgia,

Most of it is by been "boots on the ground" recruiting & working as a Mentor in Queensdale.

I can see the NEW player base frustration. Can you say the same?

Boots on the ground while not knowing the very basics about this games leveling system? Then coming to the forums complaining?

No, I have not spent time lately in Queensdale, though I do help in capitols if questions are posed.

Maybe you should spend some time to acclimate yourself with the game first, before going around giving advice.

@ConorT.5396 said:And these people are not even able to experience the best part of the game, without having to be forced to milk cows. To me, it is just insanity.

Then do interesting stuff with them like events and map exploration. The fact you can't make the game interesting by being out of the loop how to make leveling fun is not an issue with the game. You can level perfectly fine without doing a single heart quest.

But times change, and Guild Wars 2 is now 8 years old.

The people who are going to start playing are people who are veterans of other MMORPGS - not people trying an MMO for the first time.

It should be tailored towards this - just like it naturally has been since Guild Wars 1.

Then go play GW1, which was no MMORPG.

For anyone else who actually wants to play a MMORPG, GW2 leveling is with no close second contender the fastest in the market.

@ConorT.5396 said:Not going backwards to increase user play-time by stretching out content.

As explained by me now for already 4 times. The required experience has not changed. Not sure how to better state this. IT IS THE SAME AS AT LAUNCH.

Stop projecting your frustration that a friend did not enjoy the game onto imaginary elephants.

During this entire discussion, we have proven the new level-gate is real.

So your point is completely invalid.

The level gate simply changed. It was there before.

The experience gained has not changed. The experience required has not changed.

You are making an elephant out of thin air. Then coming up with weird theories which make 0 sense.

EDIT:While at it, maybe give a look to the new player achievements added earlier this year which are intended to guide players a bit more while new.

Nice attempt at a direct insult on my in-game experience because you literally have nothing else to come back at me with to justify this change to the game which is causing damage to the community.

Maybe I am not the most experienced player in terms of achievement points, mastery points or legendary weapons, but I have run a guild that helps people learn the game for over 15 years since Guild Wars 1.

I know what people expect from Guild Wars. A gate on progressing the personal story is not it.

I'm not justifying anything. I already stated that most players I know, myself included, dislike the change. I'm saying you are blowing this way out of proportion, probably because a friend of yours disliked the game.

That is on you, or him. If he did not like the game, maybe he simply just did not like the game. If something like having to spend 20-30 minutes leveling to continue the personal story was an issue, the game was not for him. It's that simple.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

Just 2 points here:
  1. Both are Paid Accounts
  2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

Alright. I clearly mentionned it would be trading an extreme for another. You have willfully ignored that, not to mention disregarding the rest of my advice. At that point, I refuse to continue discussing. I give advice in good faith, and get answers in bad faith that twist what I state. I concur with Cyninja. The game is fine, you're probably not particularly good at showcasing it to new players.

I do hope that your analysis of the "The game is fine" is correct, and based on experience and not just your personal hopes of you playing within a select group of end-game users.

I work with people joining the game, with their new experiences of the game.

I want Guild Wars to last forever.

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@Head Kracker.4790 said:I have a question then. Do you have a sky scale or the wayfarers henge? Or any other multi recipe non legendary weapon set (I.e. Dragonsblood or Heroic dragonsblood)? Or have done any of the dirizzlewood coast Stormcaller weapons?

I have played a lot of Drizzlewood coast, which was great content & I also loved how aNet released the content even with the restriction of not been able to do the voice acting.

I think that was great, and the way they handled it with the NPC interaction was fantastic.

I am not insulting aNet's development ability here.

I never would because the Elite Spec system is second to non - I am simply saying, the gate they have added to the core game is pushing new players away.

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@Naxos.2503 said:

@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:I can see where someone who wanted to do the story -- and only the story -- while leveling might not like having to gain levels in between story steps. However, what I note most about the complaint is the use of the pejorative "grind." This word used to mean something like, "Excruciatingly slow leveling by repetitive killing of the same mobs over and over and over until one's eyes bleed." Now, it has devolved to mean, "Oh no! I have to play for an hour or so to progress!"

For me, at 27 year olds.

A grind is having to open even 20 lobster pots, to randomly spawn a drake to kill it.

I don't want to do that, nor would many people - even not of my age would want too.

I know you may be exagerating to make a point, but I'm sure you're aware that some actions in golden hearts reward more than others. The typical action you just listed is one that actually rewards the least, and thus take the longest time in order to get the golden heart done. Some golden hearts Do have particularly menial tasks like that which dont reward much at all. To the best of my recollection, there is no golden heart that -solely- consist of this, without an alternative large gain action that is equally available. There is also the side note that many golden hearts, especially in the beginner areas will overlap with Orange events, and participating in those events yield golden heart progress, as well as the reward from that event. It's actually one of the fastest way to level, and why it's generally very easy to level past 10.

From what you're mentionning as examples, might I conclude that the character in question is stuck in Queensdale ? If so, I'm fairly certain most golden hearts overlap with 1 to 2 orange events each, baring perhaps 2 exceptions (Claypool, and Beetletun)

I am not stuck anywhere, I have over 1000 tomes of knowledge and at least 4+ max level scrolls in my bank.

What is upsetting me, is getting my friends who are moving from other MMORPGS interested enough to get to the immersive part of the story.

Having to work to get people into the game, just because they "Do not want to grind hearts" - for me, is literally heart-breaking.

To clarify, I wasn't saying the character was you, just saying the character you refer to (your friend) is the one stuck. If the player in question is playing on a free to play account, I seem to recall the restrictions are indeed more of an issue. If they are not though, there is always the level boost, for someone who just want to get stuck in, but again, we're crossing from an extreme to another.

And again, I understand the point you're making. You didn't feel those restrictions back then, and you dont understand why you're confronted by them now. I think everyone gets the idea. On the other hand, I think it's also fair to acknowledge that even if there is a restriction, it is rather abysmal. Not so much of a wall in itself. And again, that feeling dissipate very quickly after level 10. Everything is slow before that.

An alternative : Chase hero points. Since character progression is not really leveled based, but skill based, I am fairly certain that would be the way to go with your friend. Seek hero points, unlock their skills and gain levels by completing those, ontop of deepening their arsenal. Most hero points have their own story as well, and go anywhere from fights, to puzzles, to lore. A good way to cumulate exploration as well as levels, while still retaining the idea of progressing toward the storyline and improving their character.

Just 2 points here:
  1. Both are Paid Accounts
  2. I have told them NOT TO USE THE LEVEL BOOST ON THEIR FIRST PLAY THROUGH.

Because it ruins the experience of Guild Wars.

But clearly, I was wrong and we should all just buy level 80 boosts before playing the core story? I guess I was wrong on recommending people to play the game naturally for maximum enjoyment because this is NO LONGER THE CASE.

Alright. I clearly mentionned it would be trading an extreme for another. You have willfully ignored that, not to mention disregarding the rest of my advice. At that point, I refuse to continue discussing. I give advice in good faith, and get answers in bad faith that twist what I state. I concur with Cyninja. The game is fine, you're probably not particularly good at showcasing it to new players.

I will admit, I only half read the rest of your post since the first 2 initial points in the post were incorrect, and I believed you were not up to date with the issue.

Thank you for getting involved & trying to stop my ever growing dislike for the direction that Guild Wars 2 is taking.

I really just want Guild Wars 2 to be future-proof. From my experience with new players in the game, I know it is not.

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OP seems unfamiliar with the game. OP seems to think this is a new change, but was introduced in April of 2014.
Not sure why OP is 'stuck' in Queensdale; there are 4 other L2-15 maps to explore. A character could skip every Renown Heart and still level up enough to play Personal Story content, and, while doing so, repeat very little content.For high XP gains, try killing yellow enemies off the beaten path; they give bonus XP.

Here is some recommended reading (from 2014): https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/a-fresh-start-the-new-player-experience-in-guild-wars-2/and: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Character#Exploring_high_level_areas

I'd recommend perusing the Wiki before giving advice to 'new' players; it may be your advice (and nostalgia) that is sending them running.

Good luck.

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@Head Kracker.4790 said:That isnt the answer to my question, did you ever try and do any of the things in the above post is what I asked?

Yes, but you are missing my point entirely.

I am not saying Guild Wars 2 LACKS content.

I am saying, that Guild Wars as an MMORPG should not force people into any type of content just to progress in the primary thing that Guild Wars is about.

Their story-telling.

People should not have to grind a heart, jump up a cliff or run around unlocking way points to access what the game excels in.

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