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Toughness should be a deterant to conditions


Sovereign.1093

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@Doug.4930 said:Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

The main problem isn't condition damage by itself, but how it is common to hit multi target (AoE) vs more limited cleave (up to three from one skill use) or single direct target (power). In WvW you will often want to be able to fight more then one player and that is the reason why condition damage is more common.

Power where meant to be stronger as it don't need a wind up as most condition types are taking their time to actually hurt (burn damage is the exception) or need target activate skill (confusion) or move (Torment). Poison and bleed are targeting health pool and is more depending on how fast you have access to heals or regenerate healing (healing over time which is the opposite of bleeding).

Damage from power do also variate depending how often you can hit (each hit is random from Precision and maxed from Ferocity). High damage from power maxed out combo (P/F) and boons at max stack can take out enough health for most players with one or two hits vs conditions where it needs time or action (target need to increase damage which is out of attackers control - that is why most Mirages utility skills movement based) to max out.

Toughness is meant to reduce damage from burst (power) and should not be mixed into anti-condition damage as that in turn would make condition damage almost meaningless for small groups or single player to even fight in WvW.

What @Sovereign.1093 complain about seem to be when there is larger group fighting and that is another story. Vulnerability (condition) increase both damage from power and condition damage, Might do the same but from attacker and there are a lot of other condition and boon combination that scale up when there is enough players in close range. This is isn't an argument to mix in Toughness as an attribute to also have an impact on condition damage.

Duration (expertise) is in general worthless as it increase too little of duration for defensive condition like Blind (you get a jump in 250 ms duration or up to 1 or 2 second if you go for full investment in all general duration increase incl on weapon sigil with Malice). It is better to increase the damage condition damage (and pick a base source as bleed, burn or torment - which is general from which Rune on pick) can do without any investment into duration as you don't have time to wait to get 12 K burn (have to wait 15-20 second) damage on target and without any hard CC it is not much you can do then run in a large group to make this kind of damage have an impact.

Change in Toughness (to also counter condition damage as a attribute) would instead make Power damage as source too powerful and also make T/V builds more powerful then they are today and we will be back in longer time to kill range bunker builds.

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@Sovereign.1093 said:Also for condi damage a player only needs that condi damage not like power which needs power crit chance and crit daamge. :/

Maybe make toughness result to faster condi duration reduction?

Even power as berzerker stat is even a bit tanky if has boons and prepared well against other power classes. :/

I will admit that I think defensive stats are the ugly cousin in the corner and I think ANet dislikes them since they are not flashy. I could see toughness playing some reduced role in condition damage amounts. But I think that the argument that power requires crit and crit damage enhancers is false. PVT=CVT not Zerk=CVT. Power has a chance to crit built in with a base modifier if it does crit. Condi does not have that option. Likewise to defend condi needs to stack both V & T to defend against power that can burst, where as condi (as stated above) can be wiped out completely and in many cases just transferred. I say this as I run both power and condi builds overtime.

Again as a player that plays both they feel in general inline right now but I could see toughness factoring in some way into damage reduction for condi, but not be as impactful as it is for power attacks. But your mileage will vary.

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@Virdo.1540 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:Toughness should be for pdps only. Cleansing is for condis only.

What they should do is remove some of the Damage-Reduction and replace them with Condi-Dmg-Reduction Traits

Or make like 10%less dmg into 5% less power-dmg and 5%less condi-dmg

There's no cleansing stat though. :/

but theres cleansing

You forgot we also have CC (both soft and hard) that prevent skills that are condition based to actually activate and place condition on targets. Traps are the only skill type that have delay (after they have been placed) and can be triggered without player being active to activate (also ground based AoE need player to not be CCed to activate as a skill).

To those who doesn't understand what pull or knock down (as example of hard CC) does to a condition build: it forces you out of your position, it take some time to actually get access to your skills as the animation have to end (same as for power builds) and condition builds take same damage like everybody else during that duration. Condition builds are depending on time to actually do enough damage to kill opponent and to not kill themselves by having too low HP (getting in execution range which some trait line can trigger).

There is also traits that increase damage only from being in a certain range on HP (75% / 50% HP), so I am very much against any suggestion that damage traits now should also have less damage from traits are damage reduction trait turn into condition damage trait. How would even condition damage build work in that case? Power just have to get up from being knocked down and still do approximately the same damage as before (as long precision/ferocity have the same roll) and there is no change in targets HP (no healing up to 100 % HP)?

Cleans, interrupt and dodge/evade all have a negative impact on condition builds to actually do damage. Power can spike their damage and need less time as long they have optimal damage (precision/ferocity) and max might (attacker)/vulnerability (on target) when they can hit target.

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2cents..

Remove resistance as a boon, and use it as a stat, the max classes could do would be reducing damage from condi like some jalis trait and renegado do.,(maybe a 1-2sec boonc similiar to prot effect that its extremelly hard to stack).Condi primary based stats would have resistance stats for condi reducing.Power primary based stats would have toughness as usual defense.Defensive stats would have one or other but never both.

Separate vulnerability and make it afect power only on a static value rather than stacks, on a short uptime condi since its static value would bit kinda hight. maybe 15-20%.Add Cracked armor increase condition efectiveness on players.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Cracked_Armor

Note: we already have a condi that reduces phisical damage by 50%

By the other hand.... boons need to stop stacking :F xD

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I don't think Toughness countering Condi is the right way to go personally. I had always believed that the "trinity" of guild wars should be Power -> Condi -> Tank. Power should beat Condi since its high burst vs DoT, Condi should beat Tank since it eats through Armor and Tank should beat Power because it absorbs damage. I'm pretty sure the issue with balance is in the is the stat spreads. Tanky builds are almost always Support orientated because there is no reason to play that otherwise, means they also counter condis. Condi builds have no reason to invest in trading off stats since they only really need Condi Damage+ to be effective (Expertise is not going to make or break a condi build) allowing them to run as tanky as they want too. And power can stack so many damage modifiers that it could delete you from stealth instantly. Anet has already taken steps to bring Power into line, but they need to also begin work on brining Condi and Tank/Support into better places too.

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I saw that some other people (eg., Aeolus) have already briefly touched on this but to add to what has already been said: I don't mind that there is a difference between conditions and power in what sort of effects they take and interact with. However, if there's anything on a grander scheme that I would look at it would probably be stack caps and the remaining stacking potential on certain classes. The latter is something they already started adressing with the february patch but there are obviously some outliers left that can stack too many stacks, too quickly and too easily (eg., it's a little too easy to land 6 stacks of torment as a Rev atm. but I'm sure those things will be addressed in the closest upcomming patches).

The caps are more to ensure that condi does not become too bursty in larger scale combat. That is perhaps a bit more of a controversial subject as condi is already regarded as losing appeal the larger you scale but for me its more so to ensure that condi can be a damage-over-time feature and not something that just instantly deletes people when resistance strips or cleanses are not as readily available. That just isn't engaging gameplay and a single tick of condi should never largely out-burst big, telegraphed power attacks. I'm sure there are rather safe and easy ways to lower condition caps without making it considerably weaker in the back-and-forth stages of "effect control" wars. In fact, it can be seen as in line with a larger project on reducing spam and possible server load by capping off effects like conditions and boons; and the necessary calculations with them. Exactly how useful caps can be made to ease load and avoid calcs remains to be seen though, that's an infrastructure issue and at best a larger programming project to rewrite the systems that may not be worth the dedication. In theory, you could do something with it though and could swat multiple flies in both balance, performance and techdebt.

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@"subversiontwo.7501" said:I saw that some other people (eg., Aeolus) have already briefly touched on this but to add to what has already been said: I don't mind that there is a difference between conditions and power in what sort of effects they take and interact with. However, if there's anything on a grander scheme that I would look at it would probably be stack caps and the remaining stacking potential on certain classes. The latter is something they already started adressing with the february patch but there are obviously some outliers left that can stack too many stacks, too quickly and too easily (eg., it's a little too easy to land 6 stacks of torment as a Rev atm. but I'm sure those things will be addressed in the closest upcomming patches).

The caps are more to ensure that condi does not become too bursty in larger scale combat. That is perhaps a bit more of a controversial subject as condi is already regarded as losing appeal the larger you scale but for me its more so to ensure that condi can be a damage-over-time feature and not something that just instantly deletes people when resistance strips or cleanses are not as readily available. That just isn't engaging gameplay and a single tick of condi should never largely out-burst big, telegraphed power attacks. I'm sure there are rather safe and easy ways to lower condition caps without making it considerably weaker in the back-and-forth stages of "effect control" wars. In fact, it can be seen as in line with a larger project on reducing spam and possible server load by capping off effects like conditions and boons; and the necessary calculations with them. Exactly how useful caps can be made to ease load and avoid calcs remains to be seen though, that's an infrastructure issue and at best a larger programming project to rewrite the systems that may not be worth the dedication. In theory, you could do something with it though and could swat multiple flies in both balance, performance and techdebt.

I don't like dying to power damage. I think it would be better if we cap that, too. Thanks.

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Give reason for condi builds to use other stats, like precision. On crit sigils are so so, but the condi on crit traits got nerfed in the last big balance. If condis got nerfed some more but gained more potential condi application on crit...you might see a change. This was how I ran a condi necro in early 2013 before dire- carrion armor, giver weapons, rapid jewelry(crucial for at least 35% crit chance). Which was all to proc sigils and the bleed on crit trait.

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@Dinas Dragonbane.2978 said:Give reason for condi builds to use other stats, like precision. On crit sigils are so so, but the condi on crit traits got nerfed in the last big balance. If condis got nerfed some more but gained more potential condi application on crit...you might see a change. This was how I ran a condi necro in early 2013 before dire- carrion armor, giver weapons, rapid jewelry(crucial for at least 35% crit chance). Which was all to proc sigils and the bleed on crit trait.I ran rabid a long time ago too.

It became uncompetetive when Anet boosted power builds through the roof in HoT, everyone had to pump up sustain.

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I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions.

In all game modes, toughness reduces incoming condition damage, up to 40% for wvw, 30% for pvp, 60% for pve.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

So when we capping power damage ?

Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

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@archmagus.7249 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

So when we capping power damage ?

Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

So when we capping power damage ?

Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!

My point is, the damage you take is based on your toughness VS your opponent's damage. With conditions, you don't have that ratio to mitigate condition damage. The condition caps are so that you don't get hit with 50 stacks of bleed, 30 of confusion, and 25 of burning, and you go down in one tick.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

So when we capping power damage ?

Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!Skills do a maximum of 1000 damage, all burst problems solved!
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I've got two characters with 2k+ Toughness: a Minstrel Healdbrand and a Condi Renegade.

The only bursty Power-damage characters I have with appreciable Toughness is… a Reaper with Carapace stacks.

Do you see the problem with your proposal now?

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@archmagus.7249 said:I have an idea: in wvw, there's a cap on the conditions you can have. Say 25 for bleeding, poison, Confusion, torment, 15 for burning since it ticks so high, and a max duration of 30 seconds for all conditions

So when we capping power damage ?

Because of the direct damage calculation, I don't think that is necessary.

Who cares what you think? I'm tired of dying to damage! Make GW2 great again! Cap damage from all sources and gift everyone a full set of Nerf brand foam weapons!Skills do a maximum of 1000 damage, all burst problems solved!

You must play thief and love to get 25k crits on people from stealth

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@Doug.4930 said:Think making toughness effect condi duration may be a step too far.

However, condi's really are an issue on the small scale scene. All the best meta builds at the moment are condi. Condi thief, condi herald, condi mirage, burn guard, condi druid etc etc. Power is still effective, but condi is better.

Condi's need to be toned down in some way. But I'm not sure if this is the solution.

reduce condi lifetime and up condi stack.putting 3 burn stack for 3s is healthier than one burn stack for 10s.so condi plays closer to power but with roughly the same damage output of a full power/precision build without extra ferocity (since condi damage comes from one stats whereas power need that precision and extra foerocity to deal extra damage.). because of the cleanse mechanic.

the problem would lie in the different condi damage. burning os obviously the best at dps while torment or bleeding are the worst. (not emntioning confusion)

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