Why no holo mordrem in Dragon Bash?

[Mediahead.3542]

I know the festival ended a week ago, but I feel this needs to be brought up before next year's Dragon Bash the issue of, with the exception of the vinetooth, why there aren't any holographic mordrem mobs. I could understand not having them last year, since it had been years since they've even touched on those models, but for the second year, where, one would assume, they had to have had some time to create some holo variants of mordrem, just feels a bit odd to say the least.

In conclusion, it would be greatly appreciated if we could get an answer to why these dragon minions are excluded from the festival and if it is at all possible to add them in next year?

Thank you for your time

[Taril.8619]

Probably because Dragon Bash, along with the rest of Central Tyria, is still in the pre-Zhaitan's death Time Bubble.

Which means, pre-Mordremoth awakening and thus no reason for Mordrem minions to be a common occurance enough to be utilized in a fun activity such as a festival.

It's also why many of the NPC's are constantly talking about how ALL DRAGONS ARE EVIL despite PoF/LW4 highlighting Glint, Aurene and to an extent Vlast (Though, people wouldn't know much about Vlast back in Hoelbrak... Even as a norn commander, people aren't going to be singing songs about "That time you got rekt by a god and almost killed sitting on your butt until a dragon saved you")

[Mediahead.3542]

@Taril.8619 said:Probably because Dragon Bash, along with the rest of Central Tyria, is still in the pre-Zhaitan's death Time Bubble.

Which means, pre-Mordremoth awakening and thus no reason for Mordrem minions to be a common occurance enough to be utilized in a fun activity such as a festival.

If that were the case, then why is Kralk being projected in the sky and not Zhaitan?

[Taril.8619]

@Headcase.4618 said:

@Taril.8619 said:Probably because Dragon Bash, along with the rest of Central Tyria, is still in the pre-Zhaitan's death Time Bubble.

Which means, pre-Mordremoth awakening and thus no reason for Mordrem minions to be a common occurance enough to be utilized in a fun activity such as a festival.

If that were the case, then why is Kralk being projected in the sky and not Zhaitan?

Kralk still existed pre-Zhaitan's death. And was notable for having rekt a lot of Ascalonian regions. (As well as the whole Destiny's Edge thing where they went to try and kill Kralk)

Also, the first time anyone saw Zhaitan, was when we killed him. So literally there cannot be a hologram of Zhaitan since no-one knows what he looks like.

There could have maybe been a hologram of Jormag or Primordus instead, but Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

[Mediahead.3542]

@Taril.8619 said:

Kralk still existed pre-Zhaitan's death. And was notable for having rekt a lot of Ascalonian regions. (As well as the whole Destiny's Edge thing where they went to try and kill Kralk)

Also, the first time anyone saw Zhaitan, was when we killed him. So literally there cannot be a hologram of Zhaitan since no-one knows what he looks like.

There could have maybe been a hologram of Jormag or Primordus instead, but Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

Let me restate my question then, if this is pre-Zhaitan's death, then why have a Dragon Bash at all? Remember, the first bash came about canonically because of Zhaitan's death (which led into the appearance of the Aetherblades, but that's another story) The current festival returned after Kralk's death, which happened long after Mordremoth died in HoT. Any way you slice it, there is no lore-based explanation as to why they wouldn't be included in the festival

P.S. Kralk was not as visible as you suggest, cuz during that time, he was supposedly in hiding recovering from his fight with Destiny's Edge

[Taril.8619]

@Headcase.4618 said:

@"Taril.8619" said:

Kralk still existed pre-Zhaitan's death. And was notable for having rekt a lot of Ascalonian regions. (As well as the whole Destiny's Edge thing where they went to try and kill Kralk)

Also, the first time anyone saw Zhaitan, was when we killed him. So literally there cannot be a hologram of Zhaitan since no-one knows what he looks like.

There could have maybe been a hologram of Jormag or Primordus instead, but Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

Let me restate my question then, if this is pre-Zhaitan's death, then why have a Dragon Bash at all? Remember, the first bash came about canonically because of Zhaitan's death (which led into the appearance of the Aetherblades, but that's another story)

Dragon Bash was about showing resistance to Dragons.

"Lion’s Arch honors the defiant spirit of its citizenry with the rousing Dragon Bash festival, when revelers laugh in the face of fear!" - The official website

Which doesn't necessarily require having killed Zhaitan, only that people are resisting Elder Dragons (Which they have been for generations, sylvari and humans have been dealing with Zhaitan encroaching on their territories, norn have been dealing with Jormag's influence, charr have been dealing with Kralkatorrik and asura are literally only on the surface to begin with due to Primodus)

@Headcase.4618 said:The current festival returned after Kralk's death, which happened long after Mordremoth died in HoT.

Except that's not how time bubbles work. Central Tyria is still pre-Zhaitan death.

Whether or not the in-game activity is celebrating Zhatian's death in the story, or Krakatorrik's death in the story, the NPC's of the world are still in a time period before any Elder Dragon deaths.

Hence why even in the original 2013 event, it still featured Kralk holograms:

Despite being way before even HoT, let alone PoF LW4 when Kralk was actually killed.

@Headcase.4618 said:P.S. Kralk was not as visible as you suggest, cuz during that time, he was supposedly in hiding recovering from his fight with Destiny's Edge

It doesn't matter if he was active at that specific time or not. Since the holograms aren't based on using live targets to create them.

All that matters is if people would know what he looked like so to be able to design a hologram about him. To which, Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

[Mediahead.3542]

@Taril.8619 said:

@Headcase.4618 said:

@Taril.8619 said:

Kralk still existed pre-Zhaitan's death. And was notable for having rekt a lot of Ascalonian regions. (As well as the whole Destiny's Edge thing where they went to try and kill Kralk)

Also, the first time anyone saw Zhaitan, was when we killed him. So literally there cannot be a hologram of Zhaitan since no-one knows what he looks like.

There could have maybe been a hologram of Jormag or Primordus instead, but Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

Let me restate my question then, if this is pre-Zhaitan's death, then why have a Dragon Bash at all? Remember, the first bash came about canonically because of Zhaitan's death (which led into the appearance of the Aetherblades, but that's another story)

Dragon Bash was about showing resistance to Dragons.

"Lion’s Arch honors the defiant spirit of its citizenry with the rousing Dragon Bash festival, when revelers laugh in the face of fear!"

-

The official website

Which doesn't necessarily require having killed Zhaitan, only that people are resisting Elder Dragons (Which they have been for generations, sylvari and humans have been dealing with Zhaitan encroaching on their territories, norn have been dealing with Jormag's influence, charr have been dealing with Kralkatorrik and asura are literally only on the surface to begin with due to Primodus)

@Headcase.4618 said:The current festival returned after Kralk's death, which happened long after Mordremoth died in HoT.

Except that's not how time bubbles work. Central Tyria is still pre-Zhaitan death.

Whether or not the in-game activity is celebrating Zhatian's death in the story, or Krakatorrik's death in the story, the NPC's of the world are still in a time period before any Elder Dragon deaths.

Hence why even in the original 2013 event, it still featured Kralk holograms:

Despite being way before even HoT, let alone PoF LW4 when Kralk was actually killed.

@Headcase.4618 said:P.S. Kralk was not as visible as you suggest, cuz during that time, he was supposedly in hiding recovering from his fight with Destiny's Edge

It doesn't matter if he was active

at that specific time

or not. Since the holograms aren't based on using live targets to create them.

All that matters is if people would know what he looked like so to be able to design a hologram about him. To which, Kralk has been the most visible of the Elder Dragons.

First off, that's the Shatterer, not Kralk

Second; Here's the timeline for season 1 which shows that the first dragon bash occurred after Last Stand at Southsun, which, among other events, occurred post-zhaitan's deathhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Living_World_Season_1#Dragon_Bash

But if you want to talk strictly lore, then there are two things you need to consider; 1 is the Vinetooth boss in the Dragon Arena, a creature that was not seen or heard of in the first bash until HoT which, again, was post-zhaitan. The second thing is that part of your argument is based on some npcs saying "all dragons are evil." Well yeah, they would believe that given all the centuries of destruction they've caused and just cause Aurene is the only GOOD elder dragon (so far) doesn't mean everyone's gonna automatically believe some are good now. The Charr in Grothmar Valley don't fully trust Aurene and feel threatened by her despite her best intentions. The whole reason the Icebrood Saga is happening because Banger wants his own ED like the Commander has

[Randulf.7614]

@"Taril.8619" said:Probably because Dragon Bash, along with the rest of Central Tyria, is still in the pre-Zhaitan's death Time Bubble.

Which means, pre-Mordremoth awakening and thus no reason for Mordrem minions to be a common occurance enough to be utilized in a fun activity such as a festival.

It's also why many of the NPC's are constantly talking about how ALL DRAGONS ARE EVIL despite PoF/LW4 highlighting Glint, Aurene and to an extent Vlast (Though, people wouldn't know much about Vlast back in Hoelbrak... Even as a norn commander, people aren't going to be singing songs about "That time you got rekt by a god and almost killed sitting on your butt until a dragon saved you")

This Dragon Bash is set after Kralk was defeated. There is ambient dialogue referring to it being "this years" festival, multiple Elder Dragons killed, plus we have holograms of Vinetooth and Branded Hydras which aren't seen until long after the Zhaitan death time bubble. Plus we have Kralk as the hologram who wasn't really seen in full physical form until LS4 outside of a brief appearance over Ebonhawke in the book and by DE themselves. The original Dragon Bash from LA only had the Shatterer

As for why there aren't Mordrem minions, yet we have a mordrem boss who only appears deep inside HoT... well I figure it's an oversight there they forgot to fix from last year

Do bear in mind that whilst Central Tyria is rooted in a time bubble, there are exceptions which include branded rifts, Awakened portals, ley infused bandits, ley line anomalies, Mordrem invasions, revamped Tequatl from Zhaitan's death, a revamped Shatterer caused by Kralk, beetle racing and other things that have mixed with the maps over time. WHilst Hoelbrak is otherwise set in one time period for 11 months of the year, during Dragon Bash it becomes a mixed time bubble

[Mediahead.3542]

@"Randulf.7614" said:This Dragon Bash is set after Kralk was defeated. There is ambient dialogue referring to it being "this years" festival, multiple Elder Dragons killed, plus we have holograms of Vinetooth and Branded Hydras which aren't seen until long after the Zhaitan death time bubble. Plus we have Kralk as the hologram who wasn't really seen in full physical form until LS4 outside of a brief appearance over Ebonhawke in the book and by DE themselves. The original Dragon Bash from LA only had the Shatterer

As for why there aren't Mordrem minions, yet we have a mordrem boss who only appears deep inside HoT... well I figure it's an oversight there they forgot to fix from last year

If it is an oversight, then we need to let them know that there's a demand to have it fixed before next year's festival.

[Randulf.7614]

@Headcase.4618 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:This Dragon Bash is set after Kralk was defeated. There is ambient dialogue referring to it being "this years" festival, multiple Elder Dragons killed, plus we have holograms of Vinetooth and Branded Hydras which aren't seen until long after the Zhaitan death time bubble. Plus we have Kralk as the hologram who wasn't really seen in full physical form until LS4 outside of a brief appearance over Ebonhawke in the book and by DE themselves. The original Dragon Bash from LA only had the Shatterer

As for why there aren't Mordrem minions, yet we have a mordrem boss who only appears deep inside HoT... well I figure it's an oversight there they forgot to fix from last year

If it is an oversight, then we need to let them know that there's a demand to have it fixed before next year's festival.

Agreed and it's not been the first thread since the start of DB on it either. It's more a question of them reading and listening to the feedback. It was also noted last year this was a thing people wanted updated

[Mediahead.3542]

@Randulf.7614 said:Agreed and it's not been the first thread since the start of DB on it either. It's more a question of them reading and listening to the feedback. It was also noted last year this was a thing people wanted updated

That's interesting. I can at least say that, based on an interaction I had with one of the devs ingame, that at least one of them is aware of this and also found it to be odd. So now we to make more of them aware of this as well. (and before anyone asks, I won't be naming them here)

[Randulf.7614]

@Headcase.4618 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Agreed and it's not been the first thread since the start of DB on it either. It's more a question of them reading and listening to the feedback. It was also noted last year this was a thing people wanted updated

That's interesting. I can at least say that, based on an interaction I had with one of the devs ingame, that at least one of them is aware of this and also found it to be odd. So now we to make more of them aware of this as well. (and before anyone asks, I won't be naming them here)

I think it's one of those things to be raised nearer the time next year. It could even be a glitch causing the mordrem versions not to appear or just a design oversight and neither reason were important enough to warrant a fix this time around (although the fact it carried over from last year is a bit odd).

It doesn't even matter either, it's just one of those weird anomalies. Perhaps they'll leave it this way to keep us guessing about each year!

[crepuscular.9047]

majority Norns don't really give a damn about Modremoth

back in GW:EotN you actually had to convince sooooo hard to them that killing destroyers is 'fun', and the 'army' they sent was just 5 >.>

[The Fear.3865]

There is one actually..

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/16/Holo_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Its alot more than that. The spawned minions don't match up to their champions, all the music pieces are wrong, etc.

Whoever put it together didn't know anything about it. And we know its not just because of how much time has passed, since at the end of Descent the champions spawn with the right minions and the right music pieces, even Zhaitan's.

I have a feeling that festivals are handled by a completely different team.

[Randulf.7614]

@Hannelore.8153 said:Its alot more than that. The spawned minions don't match up to their champions, all the music pieces are wrong, etc.

Whoever put it together didn't know anything about it. And we know its not just because of how much time has passed, since at the end of Descent the champions spawn with the right minions and the right music pieces, even Zhaitan's.

I have a feeling that festivals are handled by a completely different team.

Festivals used to be handled by the current events team which may or may not still be the case.

I dont recall any mobs not matching the champ though apart from the mordrem. The music is randomly selected as far as I can tell. That appears to be deliberate

[Astralporing.1957]

@"The Fear.3865" said:There is one actually..

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/16/Holo_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpgAll boss holograms are new, so there's the Vinetooth there. Trash mob holograms however are all from the original first Dragonbash back in 2013. There were no holo models for Mordrem, because it was still pre-HoT, and Anet didn't even have any mordrem models yet. They just never bothered to update that, i guess.

In short, i doubt it has any deeper meaning, it's just a sideeffect of them trying to recycle old stuff and not realizing in time they don't have the whole set. And not thinking it was something worth putting effort into after they noticed.

[Ototo.3214]

Thought about it for a second and I wonder if it's because a mordrem minion wave would be significantly more annoying than any of the other minion waves. Like, just imagine being swarmed by things like Modrem wolves, terragriffs, thrashers, menders, and trolls. They're, imo at least, a lot more annoying that the minions from the other waves.

[Gildana.8529]

Is it also why we don't have Mordremello creams? Like the other dragon-themed candies?

[Mediahead.3542]

@Gildana.8529 said:Is it also why we don't have Mordremello creams? Like the other dragon-themed candies?

You bring up a good point. There aren't any Mordremoth-themed foods either

[Teratus.2859]

My best guess is because Mordrem mechanically provide far too much of a difficulty spike.

If they were to add mordremo holograms they would probably have to nerf them down quite a lot and maybe even gut some of their mechanics so as to allow everyone to participate.

A number of Mordrem are pretty AoE heavy..Moredrem Sniper lines do a lot of damage if you linger in them for more than a second or two, would be a big problem in the arena specially if they overlap.Mordrem Husks are extremely tanky to physical damage so they would be hard to kill and likely ignored due to the time limit.Mordrem Wolves do huge damage if they flank you which would be very very easy for them to do in a swam.Mordrem Trolls throw down AoE rings everywhere.. Too many trolls would be a big problem in the arena for the same reasons as snipers.Mordrem Teragriffs have a big charge and fast lunge attack which could result in a lot of CC and potental stunlocking.Mordrem Thrashers are again very AoE heavy and can heal themselves and other Mordrem so big no for these guys.Mordremo Bonebreakers Roll about the place knocking people down and only stop when they've been CC'd so these guys would just be annoying in the arena.

Arena is supposed to be chill and fun to play for everyone so I can definitely see how adding mordrem would spike the difficulty for that one phase.Unlike the other minion types too Mordrem are the only new variants added post Gw2 launch.All the other new Minion Types added in living world like the upgraded Destroyers and Branded are also not featured in the arena.. only the basic, weaker core world minion variants are, the only exceptions being the boss phases naturally.