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From A Very Frustrated Veteran Player... (WvW and PvP)


Sammyjoe.4271

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I have a serious question.... what is the balance team thinking? I have been playing this game since 2012 and I believe I've hit my breaking point. Tell me how a Recruit or Scout in WvW can kill me a Platinum ranked veteran player? Oh right it's because they play a condi build! Tell me why there is little I can do in a duel with a Deadeye even if I time my rotations and utilities well? Oh right it's because they port everywhere shoot, then stealth on EVERY DODGE. Tell me why the balance team comes out with a HUGE balance patch and nerfs every power build but literally doesn't touch condi?! It blows my mind. Never have I had such disappointment and fear for this game, you gotta balance a game for it to be successful.

I think I speak for everyone when I say condi has been problematic for years now YEARS. I will NEVER run condi, It's a free ticket to wherever you want to go. Cruise? Sure! Take this free ticket! Botswana? Sure! Take this ticket! If you think otherwise you are probably a condi user yourself :D. _The main problem here is _as a power user I pretty much need AT LEAST 2 of the following 3... Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage since the balance team nerfed it all. This is obviously going to make me squishier unless I invest in Vitality and Toughness which I do but you can't take away from your damage too much in these trying times. So there ya go. Oh wait? More you say? Ok! Now... condi users can say hmmmm... I don't need power, I don't need precision, and I don't need ferocity.. OMG all I need is condi damage to do damage? I don't need power, precision, or ferocity? And they have to dedicate their whole build to removing condi's or they don't even have a 1% chance! WOW I LOVE THIS GAME I KILL EVERYONE! So..... Carl we'll call him only needs condi damage stat. But he needs more than just that. Oh I know lets throw toughness and vitality in there oh and a little healing power? BOOM! Well done Anet. He is now a damage dealing (over time) tank. And I need to run DUAL cleansing sigils, and tons of other condi removals. OH and the ascended food that has -20 condi duration. Oh and don't even get me started on Expertise.

This game use to give me so much enjoyment, I guess It's either time to give up on this game or just play PvE... With 10k hours put into this game I have to say that I am highly disappointed in Anet right now.

Oh and don't @ me saying oh well just run dual cleansing sigils and runes of the anti toxin. No. Stop. I should be able to craft my build without having to do all that, without having to make sure I have at least 14,596 condi removals. PS I do run dual cleansing sigils, just not the runes... Runes of the Fireworks FTW.

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You used to be able to take a certain rank at its word, but in this day and age, a scout or recruit is most likely just an alt Diamond that got tired of trying to roam and only being zerged.

In other words, yes, part could be a broken build, but alot of them are free / discount accounts that have also likely been playing since 2012.

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@Sammyjoe.4271 said:I will NEVER run condi, It's a free ticket to wherever you want to go.

I am sorry you are having problems with condi builds. That said though if you truly never run condi builds how did you gauge the nerf that the condi side took with the balance patch? The power reduction was pretty clear a 30% but condi isn't as easily measured since some went longer and lower and some went from something to 0 which would be a 100% reduction. If you don't play condi how do you learn how to fight it or counter it?

Another point, rank in WvW really doesn't mean anything except you know the maps. But you could take a top tier PvP player and have them step into WvW and they would rock it because if anything they may have gotten more experience from more fights than a WvW player playing the same amount of time. Using WvW rank to gauge how a fight might turn out is a questionable practice.

The other is please don't compare zerk=CVT, that's apple to oranges. Play both condi and power builds and some hybrids in WvW and no, one group doesn't feel like they crush the other, they all feel like they took a nerf bat after the patch. They also feel like they have more reduced to 11111111111. Part of the patch was to make it more interesting in your timings but it feels like the opposite was achieved, at least to me.

Again sorry, never good when the thing that you do to relax doesn't relax you, better hunting!

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I'm sort of at the point with these topics where I'm just going to say "Post a video of these builds wrecking you" so we can confirm with our own eyes whether or not it's the fact you're running 5 signets that's the problem or conditions actually being problematic.

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@Sammyjoe.4271 said:I have a serious question.... what is the balance team thinking? I have been playing this game since 2012 and I believe I've hit my breaking point. Tell me how a Recruit or Scout in WvW can kill me a Platinum ranked veteran player? Oh right it's because they play a condi build! Tell me why there is little I can do in a duel with a Deadeye even if I time my rotations and utilities well? Oh right it's because they port everywhere shoot, then stealth on EVERY DODGE. Tell me why the balance team comes out with a HUGE balance patch and nerfs every power build but literally doesn't touch condi?! It blows my mind. Never have I had such disappointment and fear for this game, you gotta balance a game for it to be successful.

I think I speak for everyone when I say condi has been problematic for years now YEARS. I will NEVER run condi, It's a free ticket to wherever you want to go. Cruise? Sure! Take this free ticket! Botswana? Sure! Take this ticket! If you think otherwise you are probably a condi user yourself :D. _The main problem here is _as a power user I pretty much need AT LEAST 2 of the following 3... Power, Precision and Ferocity to do damage since the balance team nerfed it all. This is obviously going to make me squishier unless I invest in Vitality and Toughness which I do but you can't take away from your damage too much in these trying times. So there ya go. Oh wait? More you say? Ok! Now... condi users can say hmmmm... I don't need power, I don't need precision, and I don't need ferocity.. OMG all I need is condi damage to do damage? I don't need power, precision, or ferocity? And they have to dedicate their whole build to removing condi's or they don't even have a 1% chance! WOW I LOVE THIS GAME I KILL EVERYONE! So..... Carl we'll call him only needs condi damage stat. But he needs more than just that. Oh I know lets throw toughness and vitality in there oh and a little healing power? BOOM! Well done Anet. He is now a damage dealing (over time) tank. And I need to run DUAL cleansing sigils, and tons of other condi removals. OH and the ascended food that has -20 condi duration. Oh and don't even get me started on Expertise.

This game use to give me so much enjoyment, I guess It's either time to give up on this game or just play PvE... With 10k hours put into this game I have to say that I am highly disappointed in Anet right now.

Oh and don't @ me saying oh well just run dual cleansing sigils and runes of the anti toxin. No. Stop. I should be able to craft my build without having to do all that, without having to make sure I have at least 14,596 condi removals. PS I do run dual cleansing sigils, just not the runes... Runes of the Fireworks FTW.

I don’t run into that many Condi builds in WvW. Most common is probably a firebrand which is the easiest to cleanse. I won’t say run everything anti-condi but I would ask to see your build and figure out what you are running as far as cleanse.

I don’t run that much cleanse and I’m fine against condi matchups. I’m not total glass, I have roughly 16-17k HP depending on local aura buffs. And I don’t run that much condi cleanse, a targeted Anti-Damage condi cleanse on my heal and a general three condi cleanse on a utility. The key is, like most fights, not to get hit in the first place.

Also, I think you have a misconception about condi users. Most of the condi users I find dangerous are running some kind of mixed power/condi hybrid. They absolutely use power and precision and benefit from ferocity. They just also do condi damage as well. So they won’t hit as hard as your standard power user but hard enough that by the time all their condi starts ticking hard you are already low enough on HP that it really takes a big chunk out of your remaining HP bar.

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@Zefirokai.8735 said:the game is not balanced. some classes are much stronger than others. necros are still very strong and the revenants were out of the curve in the last update

Are we talking about roaming? In that case, nope. Necro is ok, but gets hard-countered by almost any other profession on a roaming build.

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Condi damage is not a general problem. Some builds that have huge synergies with dire and trailblazer gear are broken. And revenant or burn guard are not among them. It's several forms of p/d thief (even p/d deadeye is broken in wvw) and scourge.

Bunker condi scourge has a huge skill cap when not running with the zerg and even then is only a problem in 1v1 (and if you are not a longbow soulbeast) and can be facerolled with a 2v1 focus in smallscale. So you don't see it roaming that much - but if you run into one of the better ones, he will just overwhelm you with his tankiness, boonrips, cc and damage over time. Bunker condi thief is the dumbest thing possible. The mix of mobility and sustain is out of control.

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@"KrHome.1920" said:Condi damage is not a general problem. Some builds that have huge synergies with dire and trailblazer gear are broken. And revenant or burn guard are not among them. It's several forms of p/d thief (even p/d deadeye is broken in wvw) and scourge.

Bunker condi scourge has a huge skill cap when not running with the zerg and even then is only a problem in 1v1 (and if you are not a longbow soulbeast) and can be facerolled with a 2v1 focus in smallscale. So you don't see it roaming that much - but if you run into one of the better ones, he will just overwhelm you with his tankiness, boonrips, cc and damage over time. Bunker condi thief is the dumbest thing possible. The mix of mobility and sustain is out of control.By this logic I dont really see how thief and scourge is any "more" broken.

As you say, the condi scourge is fairly easy to overwhelm with ranged damage where it cant really do much. So how exactly is that broken? It makes it very good at melee, true. So... dont melee? Dont send in your boon heavy builds first? When a ton of people run very boon heavy melee builds then yeah... there's kind of a reason why it become strong.

The condi thief has a tendancy to become equally inneffective at anything above 1v1 not because you can overwhelm it with damage, but because it does it's damage in bursts that can be continously cleansed and healed. It lacks the ability to follow it up it's attacks. I've seen condi thieves go in and kill some glass cannon with no cleanses relatively fast sure, but then you almost always have time to res them before he comes again (the more the merrier). This is in stark contrast with say a dd staff stomper getting someone down - gg trying to res that guy with someone stomping you in the head for 8k damage every second on a 3K armor build, unless you have invouln.

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@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Sammyjoe.4271 said:I will NEVER run condi, It's a free ticket to wherever you want to go.

I am sorry you are having problems with condi builds. That said though if you truly never run condi builds how did you gauge the nerf that the condi side took with the balance patch? The power reduction was pretty clear a 30% but condi isn't as easily measured since some went longer and lower and some went from something to 0 which would be a 100% reduction. If you don't play condi how do you learn how to fight it or counter it?

Only power and heal were reduced... wich makes conditions optimized since some conditions are excelent bursters, reason condi rev is strong atm and high burn bunkers builds with surviability are also very strong, it was ALWAYTS this strong, we playrs just had more easy access for overperming damage output iwth power, note i play condi rev since and after patch.... it feels weaker cause phsical damage is also less.

And did i miss any update after that, that changed some conditions?

Meta (for my experiance in NA) is shifting to a omniblob gameplay with bunker condi and ministrels builds mostly ( with always 2-3 dragon banners used by thiefs and reapers do how they can influence the banner skills with their traits and other stuff),.Atrition and condi wars backed up with tons of scrappers and firebrands suporting condi bunkering one will need alot of scrappers on larger gameplay against a group like this, really alot of them, power wont do much dent on such tanky groups.

Overal condi wise only burn is carrying i dont think condition by itself is OP but theres some builds that can reach overperforming gimick situation, even on large gameplay one will get a high burn tick that will kill u between cleanses due the aoe spammy nature of the game.(try to run a heavy burn condi group and enemy cleanses nor heal wont handle).Burn on small scale is way to strong to much strong, torment i think its OK, dont move and call for a cleanse from the support class if one is on cleanse heavy CD, i find some ganking groups rellying on only torment on wet noodle builds... this is idiotic, /dance its the safest option lol to survive :).Another issue with this game players tend to spam anything and everything and dont pay atention to support players on the party, the overall squad n spam is what players want to achieve, this is wrong... when one is using cleases and heals and party member are dying on complete diferent position and location.... reason bunkering also becames more eficient, cause u stack fort the squad and spam caus one know will do somehtign to an ally.

Dont forget that aplying condi stacks with low condi damage will keep stacking but when a hight condi value triggers that number of stacks... those stack will burst tick, burn can achieve 8-10k burns per sec, as non high condi stats player i can matain perma burn ticks of 1k-4k on targets(depenind stacks due target cleansing, but usually i cover up my burn so it will melt after i put target on eavy CD), reason weaver tempests were never a issue for me, perma resistance, heals, and perma burn aplyance will kill everything mostly.

My wishlist changes:

+Make burn stack on duration(or with possible to stack 3 lvl's of burn intensivity) keep a strong value since a full stack of vulnerability also increases condi tick by 25% (and im not counting with modifyers nor traits)

+Frost Aura, reduces burn duration, but increases chill duration(imagine it like being overflowed with coldness).

+Remove toughness from ministrell gear, aply it to more vitality and boon duration. or something like27 power27 precision30 vitality30 concentration54 healing power

+Resistance boon needs a tune(down actually lol) up as well, perma resistance is achievable on condi and power builds, resistance needs to aply +10/20% from melee damage, players want to have perma boon w/o being punishing is wrong, boons need to be used when they were needed rather stack max one can...

In terms of burn have a static value and stack in uptime would be better, but make skills and trait perform actions on targets sufering from burn, chill on burn would blind, skills that make burning targets also get slowedSome class could have a poison bow skill that wheneve poisons area and targe is on fire would apply burn to current target alies...

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I will tell you how amazing Balancing Team Anet has.

Warrior has a trait called Cleansing Ire - it cleanses 1 condition per spent Adrenaline Bar (3 total) when hitting any target with Burst skill.Warrior has a Berserker Spec, which changes the Burst skill - it changes the mechanic slightly, there is only one big Adrenaline Bar instead of 3, which is very easy to fill during Berserker Mode and in moderate way when that mode is off.

Anet balance team one day thought that it's too OP, and changed so Cleansing Ire will treat Berserker's Adrenaline Bar as One (1) Single (1) bar.

To make sure that Cleansing Ire activates, you need to damage enemy player or mob with Burst skill.So, if you use it when you're blinded or it will be blocked - you lose all adrenaline you did accumulate, your Burst skill goes down on cooldown and Cleansing Ire didn't activate, so you didn't clean yourself of the conditions.

Pretty inconvenient, no?

Well, there is a much better approach.Just don't use stupid Berserker, don't use stupid Cleansing Ire...Just use Spellbreaker with Revenge Counter trait, where anything that touches you during the counter, will cleanse you off 3 conditions and transfer it to target (Necromancer 2.0). XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDoesn't matter if that damage is a burst, spike, or stun or you're blinded or immobilized or poisoned.You just need to press it and during 1.5 second window something has to hit you - anything.. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDAnd even if nothing will hit you, you can reapeat it again after couple of seconds of cooldown. XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

But Cleansing Ire was too stronk according to Anet Balancing Team. XDDDDDD

We could spend entire week here and count on numerous if not endless ideas they came up for each class with which always, but always did avoid the CORE problem. xDDDDD

That's how great Anet Balancing Team is creating Meta - oh the wisest of all, endless source of wisdom. XDDDDDDDDDDD

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@Aeolus.3615 said:@Tao.5096 that's why i never trusted much on Anet making and balancing class over this years... it tends to make no sense at all whey they do and reach.

You know,I was laughing at Collin and some of his stupid implementations.But I have to admit, that he never brought the scene to the point where people are simply just tired of that bs.

I just wonder, if he was still in Anet, how would the direction go for both PvP and WvW modes, as I assume he had some input, since he was the Game Director.

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@diomache.9246 said:Burn, as a condition, should never be able to burst something down. Make it run 50% longer and lower the damage of the same amount.

Why?Wouldn't it be better to force max stack on players up to 5~7 stacks?

This way it would still be a strong condition with limited source, but it wouldn't eat 50% of your HP pool on one tick anymore.

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@Tao.5096 said:

@diomache.9246 said:Burn, as a condition, should never be able to burst something down. Make it run 50% longer and lower the damage of the same amount.

Why?Wouldn't it be better to force max stack on players up to 5~7 stacks?

This way it would still be a strong condition with limited source, but it wouldn't eat 50% of your HP pool on one tick anymore.

Atm only burn can be that overperforming(wich imo atm is the only condi that needs to be looked at), torment can as well but under certain circuntancies.

Max i can say about torment its should be hex type ot thing, making players who are hexed take damage while moving.... or taking dame while the effects of certain conditions and movinf punising players for get cocky with those condition and not clensing :bleep_bloop: this could help non condi players would help condi players do more damage with this,

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Out of all the classes that can do burning, it's literally only the guard that can reasonably stack it high due to it's specific skills and combo fields. Engineer and eles can technically stack it too, but they require a braindead target. Yet people still look at "capping it" instead of looking at the guard.

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