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Ranger and Thief relegated to small scale...when others can both zerg and small scale fight


Arheundel.6451

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@Dagger.2035 said:I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

I've explained how they are optimal. You closing your ears and not addressing the points doesn't make them magically vanish. I'm sorry they aren't listed on metabattle so you have an easy time discerning what is good and what isn't.

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@Junkpile.7439 said:I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

@Arheundel.6451Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

@"God.2708"Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing, call spikesm and "ranging" backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplistic and noobs friendly zergy and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Dagger.2035 said:I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal. WvW is over saturated with people playing Ranger so the best advice is to try out another profession. The scenario I provided happens all of the time in WvW to a varying degree. In the scenarios provided to argue for Rangers, the Ranger can be simply replaced with an arrow cart or ballista.

What other professions?

.there are necros literally behind every boulder in wvw

This made me LoL, going in game to check right right now and heading to the first boulder :)

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

@Arheundel.6451Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

@God.2708Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

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@Strider.7849 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

@Arheundel.6451Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

@God.2708Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

404 overpower ranger not found in my comment, but its still a issue within the players, i never said ranger is OP lol... my builds actually tend to force them to blow unblcokables or countering them while in range.

Btw.. Druid is nice for zerg and larger gameplay, and u speak about improvement, yes skills of druid are nice but e feel somehting is laking atm i can imagine some improvements outside avatar form, core ranger support should be about team work and spike range pressure IT WORKS well in small scale in the hands o somewhat decent players clouding others, for some minimal support healign spring is an amazing skill, if the class cant fart boons left and right for the blob meta doesnt meant that the class is bad, thats just the blob meta wanting some class to stack and get carried w/o worring to who and when they need the boons.

Altough whenever Anet makes core ranger better it wil alwys boosting druid and beastmaster further, if palyers want to have a decent range class feel on core... anet would had to add a elite trait for core, this way balance would be more achievable w/o interfering on other elites.

edit:Note: beasmaster is a issue cause its a direct upgrade from core, IMO this 2 designs are conflicting reason i would not worry if Anet added elite spec trait for core classes.

Note2: other OP issue m8 be that every one is moving towards condi tanking optimization with misntrel suporters where OP feel is lossing the pressude and spike damage against so much sustain and condi bomb.

Note3: OP complained about resistance, i hope OP isnt one of those only condi ranger expecting to kill something that counters it...last ime i fough a only condi ranger with a high resistance toon, that player tried with more condi damage fiends rather than bring power... it didnt resulted well for them, since they were moving so much i didnt needed to use all by skills :\, i think u know how torment works... many even move more >_>.

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@Strider.7849 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:I don't really understand what is the problem. Ranger have soulbeast and thief have daredevil. Both are broken specs that can do everything.

Even core ranger calling spikes on same target its a devastating tactic.... specially when it cames with quickness.

@Arheundel.6451Next ranger weapon wil be a mlee to medium range weapon with summons ... expect a hammer.

@God.2708Rangers should be doing what they do best wich is skirmishing and ranging backline, issue is people and builsd are designed for omniblobs mentality due how simplintics and spammy game gets, also with the expectation of lower effort.

I feel like we play two different games. Can you post a video of your overpowered ranger that's broken and can do everything? I don't agree with everything the OP says as a ranger main myself, but it does need improvement for group utility in zergs - slight adjustments to SLB stances (allied duration) and/or druid can achieve this.

I want to see that OP ranger too.. I have seen a good one in a gvg video, but not sure I would say it was OP.

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@Dagger.2035 said:I feel like my points are being ignored as well. I think we will just have to agree that we disagree.

I dislike that, and reading back through my comments I realize most of mine are snark, so here is my attempt at giving a fair shake of an explanation.

@"Arheundel.6451"This is mostly a reminder to Anet with the upcoming 3rd expansion, there is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration

Was the opening sentence. So when you bring up

I believe Rangers are viable but I don’t see how people can claim they are optimal.

later in the conversation, this strikes me as semantics over definitions that you yourself are not clearly defining and also not what the OP was arguing for in the first place.

So to clarify here, because I don't think people really understand what drives things in WvW. The chosen "Meta", which I'm going to use as the Most Efficient Tactic Available acronym though I hate it, does not include rangers or thieves typically. We now have to make a subtle but important distinction that most people either don't recognize they are making or actively choose to ignore. The Meta optimizes for something. That something is not fighting. It is not zerging. It optimizes for what generates kills easiest in a given environment because WvW lacks any other external motivators and the lowest layer becomes a "PvP Sandbox".

This is important because when Player A like the OP claims that thieves or rangers do not have viable zerging builds and then points to the current state of WvW, they are not pointing to evidence that actually supports their claim. If I point to a server that is known for clouding around SMC with tons of random supports/roaming builds to the point no one likes fighting them, and say 'look they have 10 rangers in their blob, Rangers zerg fine!' I haven't made a clear argument supporting what my actual issue is: Rangers don't fit well into the party/squad system. Likewise if I point to a different server that runs a single tag because the entire server only has one commander and their zerg is 25 firebrands and 25 scourges, I haven't really made a point either. Maybe that commander only knows how to play those two classes and knows that they work at killing people well enough.

So when you say something like 'Rangers are viable but not optimal' the first thing you have to do is clarify what you want them optimized for, or no one can properly address your point. You brought up the 50v50 choke situation, and I countered with two situations that scourges are certainly not optimized for but Rangers can be. Ballistas could in fact do it better in theory, but they take time to build. And frankly ACs/Ballistas would handle a choke better than a scourge would so that isn't really a fair thing to bring in to begin with.

There are plenty of people however who have pointed out that Rangers, at the very least, have perfectly functional builds in a zerg. They may even be considered optimal in certain situations. It isn't 2012 where bearbows are memeing about in towers. The ability to do something like drop a prelude lash in the middle of a friendly bubble ensuring multiple enemies get locked down and killed is a form of AoE pick that the post Feb balance patch and the big hit to damage made exceptionally valuable. Having an intelligent ranger in your squad who can create a 1.5k range zone of death to keep harassing thieves/weavers/banner carriers/kamikaze warriors/whatever with their longbow is equally valuable in a fight where one of those jumping the squad can throw several people off tempo and result in a fight starting poorly and thus resulting in your defeat.

As I've said repeatedly, the fact that these things aren't acknowledged are an issue with the mode and what is incentivized in it by Anet, and commanders being afraid of change and trying to not shake the boat with their builds because they are few and have a hard enough job as is. It has very very little to do with the class balance itself and what elite specializations it has. The class -in the roles it has carved out- could be improved, but pretending those roles don't exist or 'aren't good enough' is semantics at best and dishonest at worst.

The topic is full of comments implicitly stating what is -wanted- is that rangers have a build that fits into every 5 man party like guardian or necro does. But then explicitly asks for things like you said which is for rangers to be viable or optimal. The people I would like Anet to listen to see this and call it for what it is, which is 'We don't like every party having a Kitten Necro, and Rangers can fit into a zerg exactly how we wish every class would fit into a zerg, with an intentional role that works inside a team/party framework'. There is a reason scourge keeps getting nerfed to death and people keep complaining about it. But no one wants Ranger to become the next scourge. Clarify Scourges niche, healthily improve Ranger inside the one it already has.

In my ideal version of WvW, the blob departs from this concept of '5 man same parties' (though I acknowledge that makes managing the zergs logitistics easier) and shifts into 'Well if I have X and Y in this party, I want to play W or Z' and it becomes a nice little game of tetris working out which builds should slot with which, and at the end you have a nice 30 man zerg full of 5 man sets of different builds. ARGUABLY that is the state of the game right now to a degree that just doesn't get explored due to a cynical player base. Ranger does exactly that right now, thus IMO it is optimal and viable. Scourge does more than that so whilst it might be Optimal in a certain situation everyone takes advantage of, it is not optimal in a way I would want Ranger (or thief) to be.

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@Voltekka.2375 said:Dunno, but @God.2708 and @"subversiontwo.7501" have offered plenty of insight on how and why ranger can be used in zergs, even if it's "offmeta" (personally, I always run offmeta builds even on scourge reaper etc). Their arguments are more than valid, hell I have been corrected more than once by them in the past in the forums and they made me see things differently (I thought I knew stuff, but guess what, I was wrong!).Nothing more to add, really. I am just happy to exchange opinions with people like the above-mentioned and get better, instead of bitter.

It's just the same old copes about how Ranger isn't totally useless therefor it's """viable"""

Meanwhile, the class is still out gunned in virtually everything it offers by other classes such that no one will ever ask someone to "switch to ranger"

Even using them for pin sniping is largely useless after Anet changed "unblockable" to a charge system

There's a big difference bewteen "not total garbage" and "worth taking over another class"

Even the best possible SB set up is still worse than just spamming Rev hammer into a zerg just as Druid has never been better than other support classes

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I have been using this setup on my core ranger. I use it to tag up, and frontline push as well as snipe and finish downs while following a tag. Ranger Core (Evasion Roamer / Commander) The link has full ascended version, I use exotic Power Toughness Vitality armor/weapons, and ascended wanderer trinkets due to ease of farming them on LS3 maps. You can use full exotic P/T/V gear from the WvW token merchants and build this setup on a budget, which works great.http://gw2skills.net/editor/?POwAwiVlFw8YhMM2JW0OqJwSe1KA-zVJYnR3/Z0jUNTVlL/Aiywtl9/0A-wI don't have any footage of how evasive this build is in my 1v2 morning bean water runs. It is satisfyingly fun to evade and push your way to their backline and setup condition spread as you ready for a flanking maneuver when the zerg ball dodges behind you for your back push. This build spreads decent condi with cover condi, which gives you all the credit you need for your sigils to do their magic. I enjoy the gameplay style of this build, but I can understand it might not be everyone's hotrod they're used to using for the tag, pusher, and roamer races. Feel free to hit me up or ignore it. Good luck out there ranger roamers and tags. Coooobraaaa! ;) Que the Suicidal Tendencies- You Can't Bring Me Down

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@"Arheundel.6451" said:https://metabattle.com/wiki/WvW

This is mostly a reminder to Anet with the upcoming 3rd expansion, there is hope this time around these two professions will see a decent (not even asking for meta status) Zerg level of fight build and iteration, I am suggesting this because at this point all other professions enjoy both a zerg and small group presence...all except ranger and thief, been like this since launch.

sure, and give us a totally untouchable, high damage, no risk, high reward elementalist spec, while you are at it, ANET. You did it for thief, ranger and mesmer.

And since you made revs and engis better in zergs... time to get down and DO something.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.

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@God.2708 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.Second account?Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@God.2708 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.Second account?Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

For the people reading that aren't this guy. This is an example of what he is saying being wrong. It is not the only example (and more examples strengthen a claim), but given the weight of his claim amounting to a tiny bit more than waving an anti-charr protest board in the middle the vabbi desert I feel comfortable saying that he is wrong.

For you, I didn't skip it. I told you exactly where to look to see that you were incorrect. I've got a step further now and copied and pasted the video so hopefully you don't skip it again. If you need time stamps please let me know. If you are talking about ranger roaming builds well... that's not what the topic is talking about, but I agree it would be a silly thing to take.

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@anduriell.6280 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

you very clearly have no idea how large scale fights work lol

that's 100% the problem here, you want to generalize your knowledge of small scale and 1v1s to large scale fights where there's 20-50 active incoming skills every second. muddy terrain is essentially a well, 240 radius at 900 range. Wells are highly effective in large scale fights and almost useless in small scale/1v1s, which is why you don't understand how effective a skill that immobs 5 people for 3s and covers it with pulsing slow and cripple is. It sounds like you don't understand how that would synergize with every necro dropping their wells in the same place?

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@"anduriell.6280" said:Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one.

You gave pretty much nothing. Staff4 for the Guardian has a long Cast Time, a clear Animation and it roots yourself while casting. And it is still a very valuable Skill for Guards, because in a sea of 50 bodies none of your "valid reasons" matter. The ImmobRanger is a viable build that is welome in most squads. It is perhaps a bit boring to play, but it certainly is not worse than playing a "Veil Bot".

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@God.2708 said:

@God.2708 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:So as a ranger main you've never used muddy terrain, signet of the wild, or prelude lash then? You know, the things being used in the video I linked that show exactly how effective an immobeast can be?Look if you get immob'd in any skill with 1-2s arming time with a very clear animation and 30s cd and you come here to complain you really need a break of the game.I stopped reading there.And no, no main ranger will take those skills because completely destroy the sustain and brings nothing to the table. Now you if you are talking about meme noob stomper then yeah, but again anything works for that.

Look. There are videos in this topic presenting factual live evidence of those skills performing in the situations we are saying they perform in. Against players I am certain are better than you are. There's no need to get theoretical about 'no main ranger will take those skills' or 'meme noob stompers'. It's right there. Try reading a little further and maybe you can productively add something to the discussion because this is disappointing.Second account?Anyway if they get caught in moody terrain (its moody because it makes the ranger sad when he equips that) while fighting the ranger (not a surpise attack) they aren't better than the mayority of the players 100% confirmed as they can't even outplay pve mechanics at this point.

Also I did add somethign productive, i gave you a very valid reason why those skills aren't used, apparently you skipped that one. Self awarenes 0 it seems.

For the people reading that aren't this guy. This is an example of what he is saying being wrong. It is not the only example (and more examples strengthen a claim), but given the weight of his claim amounting to a tiny bit more than waving an anti-charr protest board in the middle the vabbi desert I feel comfortable saying that he is wrong.

For you, I didn't skip it. I told you exactly where to look to see that you were incorrect. I've got a step further now and copied and pasted the video so hopefully you don't skip it again. If you need time stamps please let me know. If you are talking about ranger roaming builds well... that's not what the topic is talking about, but I agree it would be a silly thing to take.

25k hp, hit +8k and chilling in red circles. Balanced. =)

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My problem with the video is that it doesn't prove that a ranger is good at zerging since it is only 14 vs 14. The damage is mediocre compared to what other professions can do from range. If you want to see decent melee damage you should look at what a good Reaper or Berserker can do.

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@"Dagger.2035" said:My problem with the video is that it doesn't prove that a ranger is good at zerging since it is only 14 vs 14. The damage is mediocre compared to what other professions can do from range. If you want to see decent melee damage you should look at what a good Reaper or Berserker can do.

Okay. So. Here's a video of 20+ fighting a variety of numbers. It does plenty of damage, hurts and kills things, and does things a berserker and reaper can't (namely, pulls and immobilizes people in bubbles, and prevents their party from being immobilized).

What is your next goalpost going to be?

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  • 1 month later...

i mean, you can wipe everything with every poop, if it doesn't matter what your char does. these fights would have not been much different without the soulbeast spamming ccs and immos. the player is surely good, knows his positioning, which is basically what the opposing players completly suck at. the ranger just meleetrain bursts the downed people, so idk.

it's damage overall looks really not strong, the reaper/s there do the main dps. against not strong groups u can go unsupported in there as reaper and to exactly that with reaperform 4 attack... also reaper technically can pull, but usually not runs it.

that squad overall focuses on meleetrain tho however i see no nieche for the soulbeast. a guy with 7k wvw rank may get bored sometimes and use kinda meme, doesn't mean he'd use that too if he wanted to play serious. its kinda fast cleaning up thing, like herald can do as well with dualswords.

so yeah @God.2708 , you just took a meme vid too serious. probs a guy could post a superrandom build with any class, as long as he is able to not stay inside damage it will work like this here. against newer players or ppt servers you can easily pull ineffective stuff off like this. we had sometime groups to fight that nearly killed themselves and dealt absolutely no damage. if u constantly record and pick out that kinda of battles, well.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:
It's not possible anymore to use the same excuse: best roamer
because simply speaking they're notExcept they still are. Neither class has any excuse.
Especially
not the thief as they still enjoy permastealth.

Also there is a reason GW2 doesnt have so many limitations on your "main". You are meant to play different classes. So pick another if you want a specific purpose. As you say - almost all of them can do it.

Seriously? "Pick another class", to what? Be accepted into a WvW zerg combat formation within the group? I don't even think you understood the full title of this particular thread. Medium class Thieves and Ranger's are basically back seat, second rate disc jockeys, where your commander basically gets pissy, gets huffy, gets heavy sigh, or the whole, "it's a ranger, just kick them from the group".

And you go, "Play another class." Wow. Thanks for your advice, but i'm going to ignore it. Now, if you can come up with something more CONSTRUCTIVE, on how a Ranger OR Thief can get a little bit more...ACCEPTANCE into a zerg without commander's getting all "screw that class" ATTITUDE, I would love...LOVE to hear or even read it. But since i've listened to nearly every single damn commander on multiple servers give the same excuse, i'm not seeing much on the end of "constructive" or "objective" arguements of how you can make a build that is UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED by those same commanders. I would love to see in chat, or HEAR in discord, "Damn we don't have enough Ranger's/Thieves, i need some people to switch to Ranger and/or thief.

But you don't read that. And you don't hear it. Because none of you can make a full on meta thief/ranger build that can slip into your whole "need 2 scourges per party, 1 burn guard, one ele per squad...." <--- garbage.

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