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The biggest barrier to raids


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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU WHAT PLAYERS FIND FUN ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation? Maybe you don't understand what that manifesto is telling you? I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

This would imply that the issue and group separation is binary between skilled and unskilled players. It is not. Unfortunately it gets discussed way to often that way.

The only maybe binary separation here is between players who know how to group to achieve goals, and players who do not (either know or deliberately decide to ignore it).Maybe. It still doesn't change what i mentioned before. In the exact opposition to what yann.1946 said, people still do prefer to group with like-minded players, and are unwilling to group with players of too differing playstyles.

The adjustment made by yann.1946 simply corrected the uneducated earlier statement.And turned it into completely untrue statement. Great correction there.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

Maybe you don't understand what that manifesto is telling you? I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

Maybe you don't understand that he said has nothing to do with the manifesto?I don't know but it's apparent you need to follow better to understand what people are saying.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

It's not? OK great ... what is it then? Seems to me that his interpretation of it is spot on ... what's yours? I still don't see how that statement is him telling you what people should find fun ... that itself doesn't make any sense. He's not telling you what players should find fun. He's saying how the game is designed for people to enjoy playing that way. If you don't enjoy playing that way, it's not the game is wrong here .. it's that you choose the wrong game. That's why the manifesto exists in the first place ... so people know what they are getting into when they start playing the game. Maybe you ignored it .. that's at your peril, not the game.

The contrast between how raids work and Anet's original intent for how people should interact with the game is why raids are so problematic.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Cristalyan.5728 said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

It's @Cristalyan.5728 own opinion that's what it is.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and after all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see?

In order to Raid you do not need to join a -raid- guild. You do not need to adapt any schedule, you do not need to train before you can raid. You do not need any of that to successfully Raid, all you need is 9 other players to play with and have fun with.

The manifesto clearly states: we don't want you to prepare to have fun

@Cristalyan.5728 equates joining a guild and learning how to play the game (or Raids) as "preparing to have fun", I don't, I find great pleasure in learning how to play a game, especially if it involves learning how to play with other people. Learning how to play isn't preparing to have fun, it's part of the fun. That's part of the fun and his opinion has nothing at all to do with that line from the manifesto.

The contrast between how raids work and Anet's original intent for how people should interact with the game is why raids are so problematic.

I guess getting from level 1 to level 80 and learning gradually how to play, how to dodge, how to play this game, how to earn loot, unlocking elite specializations, earning mastery points, training mastery abilities, was also not fun for you (as it was "preparing you"), which begs the question, why are you playing this game?

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

It's @"Cristalyan.5728" own opinion that's what it is.

OK, but I'm asking you since you are claiming that his interpretation of the manifesto "we don't want you to prepare to have fun" is him telling other players what they find fun .... because it's not ... it's a reference to the contrast between how raids are implemented and the original intent of the game for players that want to play so they 'don't have to prepare to have fun'. If you don't agree with that ... then you have to explain how you think the manifesto DOES fit in with how raids are implemented.

The biggest problem for raids ... the fact that raids are implemented in a way that doesn't appeal to the people that originally adopted the game because it contrasts with the manifesto that the game was designed around in the first place.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

Good that you tell other players what they find fun.

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

It's in bold I'm not sure how you missed it.

That's NOT HIM TELL YOU ... that's Anet's manifesto! Are you even trying to follow the conversation?

No that's not the Anet manifesto, are you even trying to follow the conversation or you are just trolling?

It's not? OK great ... what is it then?

It's @"Cristalyan.5728" own opinion that's what it is.

OK, but I'm asking you since you are claiming that someone's interpretation of the manifesto "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
" is that person telling other players what they find fun .... because it's not ... it's a reference to the contrast between how raids are implemented and the original intent of the game for players that want to play so they 'don't have to prepare to have fun'.

Read the post you quoted... the answer is there.But I will try one more time, he clearly tells me that when I learn how to play this game, I'm preparing to have fun and not having fun. The manifesto says "we don't want you to prepare to have fun", I'm not preparing to have fun, I'm having fun. The fact that he misinterprets that quote from the manifesto (and you as well) to suite your agenda, even though it's far from the correct one is rather telling.

And you forgot to answer my question, why are you still playing this game. Did you find fun learning how to dodge? Did you find fun getting your first exotic items? Did you have fun unlocking your first mount? Did you have fun learning how to fly your skyscale? Did you have fun getting to level 80? Or was it all "preparing to have fun". Because clearly you have a very narrow interpretation of the phrase "preparing to have fun"

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Again, I'm not asking you to interpret the manifesto for how you play the game or what you find fun ... not relevant.

I'm asking you to explain how you think the manifesto DOES fit in with how raids are implemented since you disagree with the idea that it does not. The manifesto idea is that players can step into content and be successful without lots of the preparation other games make players do. Do you believe that players can just step into raids and not prepare and be successful? I don't ... especially at the levels that the original adopters of the game experienced. I'm certain many other players don't either. I'm certain that's why raids are not well received by players, supported by Anet or see continuous development.

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You forgot what you yourself said?

He's not telling anyone what they find fun ...

He tells me that I don't have fun, but I "prepare to have fun", in a sense he tells me what I find fun. I don't really like when someone gets so offensive to tell me what I find fun, as that's clearly a matter of personal opinion.

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Let's not get lost in arguing about things that aren't relevant to the topic or are emotionally charged. The point he is making there is that there is a contrast between what Anet originally intended for the game, how the game delivered that to the original adopters and how that is different than how raids were implemented and finally, why that causes all the issues we have with them.

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@Obtena.7952 said:Let's not get lost in arguing about things that aren't relevant to the topic or are emotionally charged. The point he is making there is that there is a contrast between what Anet originally intended for the game and how it was released for the original adapters and how raids were implemented and why that causes all the issues we have with them.

No the point he is making is telling others what they find fun. So do you finally understand that you were wrong and he did or not? Anything else you say is irrelevant, I made a comment, you started a post fiesta of derailment, harassment and off remarks. Now you can finally answer your own question and go on with it.

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OK then ... it's clear you are too focused on whatever 'offense' you have taken. I think the meaning of the discussion was pretty clear until that point.

What Anet originally intended for the game, how the game delivered that to the original adopters and how that is different than how raids were implemented is why we are in the current state.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

This would imply that the issue and group separation is binary between skilled and unskilled players. It is not. Unfortunately it gets discussed way to often that way.

The only maybe binary separation here is between players who know how to group to achieve goals, and players who do not (either know or deliberately decide to ignore it).Maybe. It still doesn't change what i mentioned before. In the exact opposition to what yann.1946 said, people still do prefer to group with like-minded players, and are unwilling to group with players of too differing playstyles.

The adjustment made by yann.1946 simply corrected the uneducated earlier statement.And turned it into completely untrue statement. Great correction there.

As I said earlier, I was not the person making the correction.

While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and
after
all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard
- YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

From the reasoninging you're using we could argue that legendaries shouldn't exist. Or pvp etc.

To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

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@yann.1946 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and
after
all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard
- YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed in a way that to adhere to the manifesto when it was released. I'm not debating that even though the game was designed a certain way that people who didn't like that way still adopted the game. That happens all the time. The point is just that the game is designed and delivers in a specific way originally that doesn't follow with how raids were implemented.

And I agree ... the manifesto to me is very obviously intended to indicate that players should be able to set into content without having much preparation and be successful ... hence why it's so casual friendly. That's NOT what raids do.

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@yann.1946 said:While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.But only when the latter would conflict with the former. It does not make them unwilling to join with like-minded individuals. It just makes them unwilling to fail.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:While you are correct that people have better experiences when joining groups with the same mindset. The point is that, as you have pointed out, that some people choose the completion of content over joining people with the same mindset.But only when the latter would conflict with the former. It does not make them unwilling to join with like-minded individuals. It just makes them unwilling to
fail
.

these things are not mutually exclusive.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and
after
all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard
- YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

The people who have fun theorie crafting, speed running etc are also original adopters to the game.

To me the manifesto doesn't say you should be able to do all content in the game without practice. But that the mayority should be able to be done without it.

Sure ... but that doesn't change the fact that the game is designed in a way that to adhere to the manifesto when it was released. I'm not debating that even though the game was designed a certain way that people who didn't like that way still adopted the game. That happens all the time. The point is just that the game is designed and delivers in a specific way originally that doesn't follow with how raids were implemented.

And I agree ... the manifesto to me is very obviously intended to indicate that players should be able to set into content without having much preparation and be successful ... hence why it's so casual friendly. That's NOT what raids do.

No, the manifesto means you should ba able to get into most content without much grinding. thats what the original was about. (or that's atleast my own equally valid interpretation). You're working with the idea that you're interpretation of the manifesto is correct, even though your interpretation is indirect contrast with some aspects of original gamedesign. (originally dungeons where seen as quite hard and had to be prepared for and you cant just jump in pvp. Legendaries where always grindy even though grinding is against the manifesto.)

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and
after
all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard
- YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

Id argue that the current living world model breaks the commitment to players just as much as raids ever have done.Firstly, as I mentioned above, 90% of achievements in the living story are 'do this event 20 times' 'kill 500 of these mobs' which directly go againt the manifesto.Furthermore the manifesto promised that new content wouldnt leave old content obsolete which it absolutely does.Shortly after launch anet made a promise to rework old content regularly to keep it relevant, and never followed through, instead choosing to release new maps.

I dont feel the current living world model is bad for the game, its probably better than anets original ideas, but it does break all the initial promises anet made. The argument 'it should never have existed because it breaks the manifesto' just doesnt hold up when you look at the game as a whole. I think raids were absolutely beneficial for the long term health of the game, and the game is worse off due to their , and every other side modes, abandonment.

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I'm not sure what the manifesto has to do with raids. The only barrier has to do with the players themselves as you have one group that wants experienced players for smooth runs and another group of inexperienced players that do not want to create their own groups with players like themselves but instead want to group with the experienced players.

And for those who continue to quote the manifesto video and take things out of context:

Hey folks,

I just want to take a second to address this topic, because it’s something we state as one of our key philosophies – but don’t often clarify exactly what we mean we say it. And because everyone and their mother has their own unique interpretation of what grind can mean, it’s very simple for this to feel like we’re not following our own guidelines when we build and implement content.

When our company president said we have an anti-grind philosophy way back before Gw2 shipped, and when it has been repeatedly reinforced since then, our statement is simply: “We don’t think you should need to grind to get the best gear and stats in Guild Wars 2”.

So what exactly does that mean:

  • The best gear/stats: This means to have statistically the best abilities in the game, you shouldn’t need to, by our definition of the word, grind. This goes for leveling and getting top gear (by our definition that’s ascended gear, legendary being an optional extra thing you can do, but don’t need to do.)

  • Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

Hope that helps a bit, that’s our philosophy and definition we’re going by when we make those statements. They may not align to your definition of grind, and that’s ok – we’re fine with that! It’s just important you know what we mean when we make that statement so you can make decisions about how you view Gw2 and judge us by our actions/words.

Thanks again for being so passionate about this topic and the game which ever side of the discussion you fall on. It’s something incredibly important to modern MMO’s and gamers in general, and we truly appreciate the dialogue you all are having on topics like this. It’s what makes better games for all of us.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

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TLDR; it's a fair point to say "joining a raiding guild and adhering to a schedule sounds like too much for me." The vast majority of GW2 doesn't need that, and arguably that's what makes GW2 special. That being said, I think this sort of barrier to entry is fine. Deal with it, or accept that raiding is too much work for you.

How I see this thread:

(1) OP says that gathering 10 people is the highest barrier to raiding.(2) a bunch of other people point out that this barrier can be overcome by joining a guild and (ugh) conforming to schedules/standards of performance/etc,(3) OP (and others) just dismiss (2) as something they don't want to do, or that it simply represents a burden they do not wish to carry.

I think this is one of those situations where everyone is right, to an extent.

Those of us who are part of raiding communities know that the 10-person requirement can be pretty easily overcome, and that's why we suggest it to everyone like OP who supposedly has everything in place other than 9 other people to do it with.

While we are correct in that there is a reliable solution to OP's issue, OP (and like-minded folk) do have a point when they say things like "joining a specific kind of community for a specific purpose, or adhering to a set schedule is more than I want to do."

GW2 is quite special in how impromptu a lot of content can be. Although the game described by the original manifesto is long gone in many respects, ANet did successfully design a mostly open world game where you don't always need super spot-on organization to get large encounters done. I, for one, have stuck with GW2 for as long as I have because I love how I can walk away (without totally torpedoing the group) from most content I'm doing should the need arise, and it's just as likely that when I jump back into the game I'll find a huge swath of content is complete-able with PUG LFGs or just open world hordes of players.

So compared to what makes GW2 great for me and unique amongst its peers is not reflected by the basic standards of raiding. I get that.

My response to that is "too bad." I don't think raids really have meaning outside of being the way that they are now (relatively higher barrier to entry, existing for those seeking challenges and risk of failure well beyond what the rest of PvE offers). If you can't find a guild you feel like adding to your list of 5, and you can't find a time that works for you, that's on you. I think it makes more sense for the game to tell you "hey this content might not be for you" more than you to demand that the content get watered down to the impromptu-able levels seen elsewhere in PvE.

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It's 2020, the game is about to get 8 years old and there are still those that mis-quote and misinterpret the manifesto to suit their needs and arguments. But to be fair, it's been a rather long time since I've seen the manifesto coming in an argument, butchered and half-quoted as always.

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the context which anet had when they said "we don't want you to prepare to have fun": that you do not have to play other content first, like farming gear or do other unfun things so you can play content x. aka: you do not need to prepare your character by doing shit you do not like to get to the content you want to do. aka, you don't need to farm 50 times fractals first so you "unlock" (be it by a hard lock or gear requirements) wvw.

how some players interpret it here in the thread: i don't have to prepare my character anywhere and i do not have to prepare my group....thats NOT what the manifesto is about at all. if you think it is, you are misinformed. stop taking it out of context.

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@zombyturtle.5980 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:

Yes, you coming and basically saying:"Oh I don't accept the fact that using the guild system or organizing yourself for raids is a valid approach"

is hardly an argument. Joining a raid guild and having fixed raid schedules or making out times with guild members is one of THE main ways to address the issue you are talking about. I know because that is literally how EVERY raid guild and casual raid guild does it.

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard.

I think that reading this we can easy find the main reason of the raids state - It is something abnormal for this game.

Let's explain: in order to raid we should first join a guild, adapt our schedule to the raid schedule of the guild, make trainings, and
after
all of this we can successfully raid. Did you see? The raids, as concept, breaks one of the main points of this game (you can find it in the Manifesto): "
we don't want you to prepare to have fun
".

With this in mind the game started and created a playerbase pleased by this approach. And these players are the majority - it is the oldest part of the playerbase.

And suddenly - starting from a certain point on, ample preparation before doing something in this game are required. What? As a consequence:

Yes, if all you accept is the PUG and LFG, then organizing 10 people will be hard
- YES, it is hard. But many players played this game because for LFG you did not use a planning activity before. It was SIMPLE, not HARD. And it was for 5 not for 10. BTW - the things were very simple. The game started without LFG if I remember correctly. And still the players completed 5 man instanced content.

As a conclusion - the main reason for the raid state is the simple fact that this anomaly exists in GW2 in the actual form.

We'll that ignores the portion of the population who finds this preparation fun

It sure does .. but the argument here is that it should have never existed in the first place because of the expectation in the manifesto by Anet to the original adopters of the game. We can see the consequences of Anet's decision to ignore their OWN commitment to players ...

Id argue that the current living world model breaks the commitment to players just as much as raids ever have done.

Maybe ... but that's a different thread topic don't you think? :wink:

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