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Some thoughts about Jormag rising trailer


hugo.4705

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@Psientist.6437 said:That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own [...]Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.

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@Obliviscaris.6937 said:She quite literally did this to Aesgir, which resulted in the Norn building their culture around a big fat tooth shaped lie.They. Jormag is nonbinary.

Also, I know it can be easy to want to follow old biases based upon patterns and beliefs regarding visual appearances but I don't believe that Jormag is remotely as evil as you'd think. They do what they have to to defend themselves but we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

What happened with Asgeir isn't exactly what Jormag intended, they wanted the norn to see the presence of the tooth as a victory so that further altercation wasn't necessary. Jormag does this. They don't want to fight unless it's absolutely necessary to survive. They do the same thing with Drakkar. They fight because they have a dragon's instinct to survive, and wanting to live isn't an evil thing, and they know that they have much to protect themselves against. Furthermore, they aren't sure of what the Commander intends, Joko illustrated this quite finely. By killing Elder Dragons, the world could easily be doomed. Jormag isn't privy to everything that the player knows, that's dramatic irony at work, they only know the snippets they've been able to hoard and ascertain for themself. They see the Commander as a loose cannon, someone who could just as easily destroy Tyria as the Elder Dragons. Aurene is a point of hope but it's not enough to say that the Commander won't destroy Tyria. Ice protects, ice preserves, and that's what Jormag wants.

I've spoken of Jormag's perspective before. They've been defending themselves from other Elder Dragons who've been trying to eat them for millennia, since time immemorial, and they've done the least amount of damage they can to just survive. If they go, the way they see it is that Tyria has no chance. It's down to the Commander to show that they aren't the destructive force that Jormag believes they are, just as Joko believed they are (and in all honesty, they kind of have been right up until being tempered by Aurene). Jormag's had enough, they see this as the tipping point, either they save the world now or it's doomed. Aurene gives them hope that they can work openly with the mortals to this end, they've said as much.

I mean, the tagline of The Icebrood Saga is that we'll have to learn uncomfortable truths about the Elder Dragons. What could be more uncomfortable than learning that, perhaps, at one time all of the Elder Dragons were good? That it's been torment driving each and every one of them to do terrible things? And that at least Jormag doesn't have torment? Perhaps even that they're aware of all of this and is one of the only forces tryig to fight the torment head on?

What if Jormag believes the Commander might have torment?

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@draxynnic.3719 said:We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't want minions that lack free will.Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.Svanir aren't branded in the traditional sense either. They are people who willingly accept some of Jormag's power, but as we see with Svanir who have lived for a long time, that power does eventually corrupt them, and turn them into the same kind of dragon minion we see the other dragons use/more typical mindless icebrood.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

Primordus doesn’t exactly seem like the scheming type. Seems more of a taking things by sheer force kind of elder dragon.

If it wasn’t Jormag I’d wager it’s something else entirely, perhaps not even an elder dragon. But I think it’s going to be as simple as Jormag with a different threat appearing much later.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't
want
minions that lack free will.Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

Special pleading. Kudu's monster existed, and isn't the only example, just the first one we encountered. There's nothing special about doing something in a lab that can't be done in the wild - the same physics happen in a lab as in the wild, it's just that conditions are more controlled. The Elder Dragons are happy to blend multiple forms of draconic energy into their minions, just that they only do so after the dragon that originally presided over that domain is dead.

NPCs saying things are unreliable narrators, with little reason to believe they know more than we do. In fact, they might well know less, depending on how common knowledge of the Inquest's experiments are. We've seen it be a plot point that what an NPC says is wrong several times before.

What we know is that, in practice, the Elder Dragons do not try to corrupt minions who are already claimed by another dragon, apart from Aurene forming her connection with Caithe.

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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

Citation Needed.

Would be interested in those quotes, too.I doubt someone that masquerades its own voice with the voice of a dead person to lure in the commander would only ever tell the truth.It is just a scheming dragon, ice and persuasion are Jormags domains. The only thing it loves is its own survival.

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@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:That machine opens some interesting plot directions. Bangar could be siphoning draconic energy without Jormag's consent. Banagar didn't walk as though he was a subordinate.

This is my take. I definitely think that someone has Bangar's ear, but I don't think it's Jormag. There are a couple of big players it could be, and the obvious one is Primordius since we've seen his portals about and he is the opposite force to Jormag, but this may go a little deeper than that...

Out of all the Elder Dragons, Primordus seems the least likely to interact with living beings. Primordus' only actions towards mortals has been to kill them, even when they begin worshiping him (like the Flame Legion) or siphoning his power (like the Stone Summit dwarves).

@Hypnowulf.7403 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:That, or Jormag has seen the usefulness of minions that can think on their own [...]Jormag's branded have always been able to think for themselves. We see this with the Svanir in the Hoelbrak and there are plenty of other examples too, up to and including the Svanir that were just trying to enjoy some hot springs bathing time until Ryland's warband got up in their face about it.

Sons of Svanir are not corrupted dragon minions. They're a cult, many of whom become icebrood eventually, but those in Hoelbrak are not corrupted (except the one icebrood that shows up during Dragon Bash). As shown during Season 3 Episode 3 (when ANet had adopted the bad habit of calling icebrood norn "Svanir"), many icebrood are indeed nigh mindless and are even incapable of speech. This is even implied at the end of No Quarter when comparing the Frost Legion to icebrood:

Rytlock Brimstone: They fight smarter than icebrood!https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turnabout

Not sure about the hot springs part - iirc, those were typical Sons of Svanir, not icebrood. So again a different breed. And the only other time we see icebrood interact with hot springs was to destroy and cool down the hot springs (Bitterfrost events).

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"draxynnic.3719" said:We've known since Kudu's Monster that multi-corruption was possible, just that the Elder Dragons seemed to refrain from doing so. It's possible that the reason is that once a creature is made into a dragon minion, a second dragon corrupting the creature does not grant the second dragon control so the second dragon has nothing to gain from corrupting another dragon's minion - which isn't a problem for the Inquest and may even be beneficial, since they're looking to break or subvert the connection between Elder Dragons and their minions themselves. Aurene's conversion of Caithe, therefore, might purely be a matter of Aurene not caring about control because she doesn't
want
minions that lack free will.Kudu's monster isn't a viable example because of the unnatural method by which it made. Its explicitly stated, and reinforced, both before, and after, Kudu's monster, that Dragon missions cannot corrupt each other naturally. Likewise, Kudu's monster can only attune one of the Elder Dragon's magics at once, again suggesting these is a fundamental barrier between being corrupted by more then one at a given time. Which is consistent with the other examples outside Kudu's monster.

Unnatural method? All the Inquest literally do is expose people and minions to corruptive energy. They do not alter that energy in the least. There's barely anything unnatural about it except that the Elder Dragon isn't choosing to corrupt those specific subjects. The only thing "unnatural" is the environment which has zero effect on what's happening to the subjects (be it kidnapped civilians being turned into dragon minions, or dragon minions exposed to further corruptive energies).

And it is, in fact, never "explicitly stated and reinforced" - either before or after - that dragon minions cannot corrupt each other naturally. The closest thing is Taimi's line in All or Nothing:

Taimi: I thought dragon minions couldn't be corrupted by other dragons! Is it 'cause her egg absorbed Mordremoth's magic? How—

But pay attention: 1) Taimi thought they couldn't be corrupted, which is important that it shows her own doubt on the matter at this point (plus, Taimi is an unreliable narrator, so even if she were to say they indeed couldn't be, there's a chance she's wrong), 2) she's making that statement as she sees a minion be corrupted thus disproving that notion, 3) and while Caithe calls it a "connection" rather than corruption, it's still doing the same thing as corruption except for one thing - Aurene didn't remove/enslave Caith's will, making it effectively the same thing as the creation of sylvari.

It has always just been player assumption and self-conviction that dragon minions cannot be corrupted. This is never once stated as a fact in game. Plus, the entire sylvari immunity thing has been established by ArenaNet devs to be due to "the Pale Tree's protection". Post-Season 2, for clarity's sake.

And if there is some other super obscure proof on dragon minions being immune, beyond the lack of seeing such in the wild, please do share. Just keep in mind that the lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking - all the lack of cross-corrupted minions in the wild means is that the Elder Dragons choose not to corrupt other dragons minions, not that they are incapable of such.

The only immunity we see against dragon corruption comes in the form of Forgotten magic (Exalted, etc.), and a still unclarified sylvari "Pale Tree's protection".

Also, there's Subject Alpha, which is fully capable of using five Elder Dragons' powers without "changing attunements", so that latter statement is disproven, too.

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I wonder after reading all of that, instead of speaking about a specific dragon corrupted minion, wouldn't it be better to say that; the minion have been corrupted with the draconic energy associated to that dragon? Like we have death-vine destroyers, death-branded centaurs, subject Alpha, Subject Beta..... If the draconic energy, is in fact just a mutagenic agent, then you can inject as much as you want in the subject. (Of course monitoring the experiment and dosing the different energies)Once you are "contaminated" you can use the "powers" associated from the injected energy and your body shape with specific features... (Crystals, Vines...)I know that after Zhaithan and Mordremoth were killed, their energies leaked to the nearest dragon, but can't the death-vine destroyers as examples be considered as minions converted by 3 dragons on purpose? Isn't it the same as Mordremoth, Zhaithan and Primordius would have targeted the same creature?

I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.

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@"hugo.4705" said:I wonder after reading all of that, instead of speaking about a specific dragon corrupted minion, wouldn't it be better to say that; the minion have been corrupted with the draconic energy associated to that dragon? Like we have death-vine destroyers, death-branded centaurs, subject Alpha, Subject Beta..... If the draconic energy, is in fact just a mutagenic agent, then you can inject as much as you want in the subject. (Of course monitoring the experiment and dosing the different energies)Once you are "contaminated" you can use the "powers" associated from the injected energy and your body shape with specific features... (Crystals, Vines...)I know that after Zhaithan and Mordremoth were killed, their energies leaked to the nearest dragon, but can't the death-vine destroyers as examples be considered as minions converted by 3 dragons on purpose? Isn't it the same as Mordremoth, Zhaithan and Primordius would have targeted the same creature?

I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.Pretty much, there is a difference between being corrupted by a dragon, and having dragon energy. Kudu's monster had draconic energy in it, but it wasn't actually corrupted by any of the dragons. The same is true for subject Alpha/Beta. Obviously there's things like Vine Touched destroyers, who use the powers of both Primordus and Mordremoth, but they are still only corrupted by Primordus. The same is true of Caithe, and her interaction with Aurene.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:snip

  1. Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted by any of the dragons. It simply had draconic energies. Same with Subject Alpha/Beta.
  2. The whole point of writing a line like Taimi's is to serve as an explanation to the audience about how this works. And, what you conveniently leave out, is Caithe's response, which add the clarification ofCaithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.Caithe wasn't corrupted, but was still able to take in Aurne's power, but draconic energy =/= draconic corruption. They are two separate things.
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@The Greyhawk.9107 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:we've had it on good authority that a.) Jormag loves Tyria dearly, and b.) they only ever tell the truth. ArenaNet has said as much.

Citation Needed.

Ask, and ye shall receive. We Dawn bloom sylvari are always happy to lend a hand and help curious souls find knowledge throughout Tyria. :)

Fascinating tweets from Tom Abernathy, Studio Narrative Director, himself:

tomabernathy: Said it before and I’ll say it again: Jormag is 100% sincere in saying they love Tyria and want nothing more than to fortify and protect it. Jormag doesn’t lie. That’s part of their strength. (Source)

Michram142: If they didn't want to wreck mortals in progress and make them lose their free will... They may love the planet, but Aurene truly loves Tyria, because she wants to preserve all life, rather than keep destroying it for the sake of devouring more magic.

tomabernathy: Interesting. (Source)

One should always raise an eyebrow whenever Tom replies with "Interesting," whether on Twitter or Reddit (hopefully we'll see more of his comments on these forums too in the future when/if the occasion calls for it). He's also used similar phrasing when players brought up the idea of whether other Elder Dragons suffer from their own forms of Torment as well as whether Aurene was able to absorb all of Kralkatorrik's magic upon her ascension or if some of that magic reached other Elder Dragons (and the latter was proven true via the Bjora Marches journals that revealed that Drakkar and Jormag have received at least some magic from Kralkatorrik's demise; it wouldn't surprise me if they got some of Balthazar's magic too in which case they can circumvent some of the divine magic protection and possibly enter the Mists like Kralkatorrik and Aurene did). :)

As for the subject of dragon energy corrupting a subject, we've seen how the Risen-infused artifacts worn by Howl and Kellach turned them into Risen. In Kellach's case the transformation was gradual with the effects of attracting Risen to him until he insta-turned into Risen in Jennah's throne room. As such, dragon energy itself will passively corrupt its target into this or that dragon's minion without the dragon or its minions needing to be around to force it to in these circumstances.

As seen with Kudu's Monster, Subjects Alpha and Beta (and potentially Kudu himself), targets can in fact be crosscorrupted by just letting them get exposed to dragon energy unless there's some specific protection like divine magic and related Exalting etc. rituals (at least until Kralkatorrik and Aurene consumed Balthazar, which allows them to bypass some of the divine protection as seen with corrupting djinn, and there are suggestions in game now that other dragons may have received this power too), Dream of Dreams, or the Blue and Golden Orbs.

Why the Elder Dragons haven't tried to crosscorrupt other dragons' minions in the wild, then? There could be plenty of reasons. Maybe the dragon needs to concentrate more magic to corrupt an already corrupted minion, which is not economical when dragons prefer to hoard most of the magic for themselves (thus the number of mindless grunts is greater than the more intelligent lieutenants and champions).

Another reason could be more sinister: as seen with Subject Alpha, it became an unpredictable "wild card" whose loyalties remain unknown. It was able to attune to different dragon hiveminds' frequencies and somehow wrestle control of rival dragons' minions for itself while turning the various minions into a pack that viewed it as their pack alpha. Perhaps the dragons are aware of this outcome and how these wild card champions could threaten their rule if left unchecked, which is why we haven't seen any crosscorrupted minions in the wild and why different dragons' minions seem to avoid one another's territory (e.g. Mordrem and Branded never interacting in Ascalon, Icebrood ceasing their relentless assault on the Stone Summit fortress in Far Shiverpeaks once the Summit remnants had been infused with Primordus's power as revealed in Arngirn's journal and why Icebrood and Destroyers never got close to one another in Darkrime Delves).

Given how Crucible of Eternity's explorable mode showed one of Alpha's essences slithering away unharmed, I'd love to find out that Alpha managed to escape the facility before it was shut down and has continued consuming beings into itself to become more powerful and more intelligent over the following years. Imagine if Alpha became our somewhat morally grey antagonist/ally who seeks out perfection while becoming a potential threat as a "seventh" Elder Dragon by leeching on each dragon's power to take over their minions one by one. In this scenario it would be intriguing for Alpha to come across Overseer Kuda and its "sibling", Subject Beta, and how it might view Kuda's ambitions to continue her father's work to create synchonized, crosscorrupted minions under the Inquest's control (possibly with the dominating devices the Inquest used on Risen in Arah's mursaat path).

How might Alpha view the Unchained Risen, Mordrem and Branded and the related champions? Would it try to negotiate with these Unchained champions so they form a new multi-minion army so they can forge their own path, or would Alpha simply take over these confused ex-minions and turn them into a potent force where the strengths of each related minion empower the whole horde. And what would Alpha feel about Aurene's existence and her relationship with her mortal followers, and vice versa? Would Aurene view Alpha with pity, curiosity, or worry depending on what sort of a path Alpha forged as the true wild card? :)

I'm really curious about the machine that infuses the Frost Legion with dragon energy. It's essentially a more advanced version of Kudu's machine in that it doesn't turn subjects into full corrupted minions but gives them only some frosting akin to Svanir who are in early stages of corruption. Is Jormag willingly granting their power via the machine, is it making the charr think they're in charge as they leech some dragon energy for their uses, or has Bangar genuinely figured out a way to perfect Kudu's research?

These Frost Legion retain their personality and intelligence (it'll be fascinating to listen to their taunts and chatter based on that_shaman's teases, and I hope we actually get to hear proper idle conversations between Frost Legion members when we sadly didn't get the same luxury with the mostly mute Dominion outside of events). I also look forward to finding out if the Frost Citadel is newly built or if parts of it may have originated as an Inquest or Pact outpost before it was frozen over and before the charr repurposed it for their uses.

It'll be fun to find out how prepared Bangar really is when he so far seems to be severely underestimating Jormag's power and if he actually has any trump card whatsoever, especially if there's some Inquest collaboration based on the curious Brand stomper sabotage that attracted the Branded to the ceremony, which forced Aurene to intervene and soured many of the attending charr to her presence as the saboteur may have planned all along to speed things up and force Bangar into action sooner than expected. Unless that's all a misdirection and some charr has actually been responsible for the sabotage behind Bangar's back; either way, Bangar seemed genuinely surprised by Aurene's flyover in the prologue, so I doubt even he could fake his surprise that well when his previous fakings have been pretty obvious (e.g. his snarky responses to Almorra in the office).

There was even ambient dialogue where Researcher Dwidd, clad in Inquest clothes, discussed potentially weaponizing Aurene's magic and how Gorrik might be able to help with that; it would be fun if Gorrik's Inquest past caught up with him and if Kuda has taken notice of his and Taimi's research on Aurene and wants that data so she can perfect her own dragon minion project. :)

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@"Kossage.9072" "Given how Crucible of Eternity's explorable mode showed one of Alpha's essences slithering away unharmed, I'd love to find out that Alpha managed to escape the facility before it was shut down and has continued consuming beings into itself to become more powerful and more intelligent over the following years."

In fact I wouldn't be surprised that Alpha essence is still alive and possessed a dead asura researcher body left somewhere in the facility. And trying to escape.I'm sure at 300% the inquest returned into the "sealed" facility to recover Kudu's Corpse and the data stored on the terminal before Kudu's crucible. To make subject Beta. They either: Recovered the Alpha essence / Found an entity possessed by it but killed it / Only used the data they found here.6PIzAZ3m.jpg

But frankly, to return to the main subject, I don't really see how those charrs are turned into icebrood they don't even have a Draconic Energies Transmuter like the ones used in subject preparation vaults (story). It would work by vaporizing icebrood ice dust? I kinda find it big, a charr knowing nothing of asura know how to extract draconic essences or magics whereas it surely took Kudu a good part of its life to set up the crucible.

About Inquest global work on minions, I just feel like they try to understand them. They created very recently DERV, dragon elimination raid vehicle, I have no doubt they want to throw an army of a hundred of them on dragon lieutenants to kill them. Or, because of seeing more and more dragons rising, they decided they have to create something to protect rata sum. We are killing them everytime, but what if they were in fact allies? Maybe they even wanted to see if the plague could kill dragons. (But started investigated lethality on what they have). I definitely think also they wanted Subject Alpha and Beta to be able to control any dragon minion, that way, they bring one with them and It would make a safe area all around. (Directing them all against the dragon who created them) But, hey, that thing is conscious and also want to direct them, understandable after undergoing horrible and hurtful experiments and tests; associating red-black uniform asuras as target.

Again, I'm just surprised the Inquest hasn't yet sent on Gorrik a squad of Exterminator mark golems and enhanced centurions to get its head of a traitor.

Or plot twist, Gorrik and Dwidd are working for Bangar. Inquest over time associated themselves with others if it was beneficial: Aetherblades.... Sinister Triade (Bandit+ Nightmare Court)..... With Balthazar in Draconis Mons (a god)... Why not Bangar, an imperator?

I call it, partnership with bangar = free icebrood to study and some infos from Jormag about dragons.

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@hugo.4705 said:I'm curious about what other think, a death-branded mordrem isn't the same as a subject beta?To me the foes at ember bay are a natural occurrence of cross-corruption even if it's due to the fact a dragon gained abilities from the others who got killed.I would argue that they are examples of cross-corruption, but a vastly different style. Because in the end, Primordus is the only one corrupting those destroyers, and Kralkatorrik the only one corrupting those branded, even if they're corrupting them with two types of draconic energies.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Pretty much, there is a difference between being corrupted by a dragon, and having dragon energy. Kudu's monster had draconic energy in it, but it wasn't actually corrupted by any of the dragons. The same is true for subject Alpha/Beta. Obviously there's things like Vine Touched destroyers, who use the powers of both Primordus and Mordremoth, but they are still only corrupted by Primordus. The same is true of Caithe, and her interaction with Aurene.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:snip
  1. Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted by any of the dragons. It simply had draconic energies. Same with Subject Alpha/Beta.
  2. The whole point of writing a line like Taimi's is to serve as an explanation to the audience about how this works. And, what you conveniently leave out, is Caithe's response, which add the clarification ofCaithe: Taimi, it's all right. She asked, and I accepted. This isn't corruption—it's connection.Caithe wasn't corrupted, but was still able to take in Aurne's power, but draconic energy =/= draconic corruption. They are two separate things.

Dragon corruption is the act of imbuing dragon energy into something. You're right that "draconic energy != draconic corruption", but that's the same as saying "oxygen != breathing". Breathing is not the same as oxygen, but (in most Earthly life) uses oxygen; similarly, dragon corruption is not the same as draconic energy, but it uses draconic energy. However, one can not be imbued with draconic energy without suffering from dragon corruption. Whether that corruption is benevolent (like the Pale Tree's and Glint's) or hazardous (like Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, Kralkatorrik's, etc.) is another matter.

There is nothing in the game to state that Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted - hell, its very appearance is an active disagreement to that claim, given it looks like a risen giant. Same with Subject Alpha and Subject Beta, the former being literally classified as a risen by the game's mechanics, and the later having a strictly branded appearance. So your first point is nothing short of pure speculation and assumption on your part.

As to your point 2, that's incorrect, as it is implying the non-existence of unreliable narrator, which is something ArenaNet uses to its fullest possible use (some could easily argue they use it too much even). The point of the line is to establish how it is thought to work not how it actually does work. After all, the fact that what is being shown disagrees with the line outright is proof that how it is thought to work is false.

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@"hugo.4705" said:In fact I wouldn't be surprised that Alpha essence is still alive and possessed a dead asura researcher body left somewhere in the facility. And trying to escape.I'm sure at 300% the inquest returned into the "sealed" facility to recover Kudu's Corpse and the data stored on the terminal before Kudu's crucible. To make subject Beta. They either: Recovered the Alpha essence / Found an entity possessed by it but killed it / Only used the data they found here.Wasn't the entire point of the lockdown because the reactor was unstable from the story mode, thus anything within would die of radiation before long?

Hard to really tell, the two modes are rather disconnected beyond Spire's "I was supposed to kill Kudu but you took that fun job" ranting.

Again, I'm just surprised the Inquest hasn't yet sent on Gorrik a squad of Exterminator mark golems and enhanced centurions to get its head of a traitor.Maybe they're smart enough to know it's kind of a bad idea to piss off the Pact Commander (again) by trying to kill one of their companions.

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@"Kossage.9072" said:Another reason could be more sinister: as seen with Subject Alpha, it became an unpredictable "wild card" whose loyalties remain unknown. It was able to attune to different dragon hiveminds' frequencies and somehow wrestle control of rival dragons' minions for itself while turning the various minions into a pack that viewed it as their pack alpha. Perhaps the dragons are aware of this outcome and how these wild card champions could threaten their rule if left unchecked, which is why we haven't seen any crosscorrupted minions in the wild and why different dragons' minions seem to avoid one another's territory (e.g. Mordrem and Branded never interacting in Ascalon, Icebrood ceasing their relentless assault on the Stone Summit fortress in Far Shiverpeaks once the Summit remnants had been infused with Primordus's power as revealed in Arngirn's journal and why Icebrood and Destroyers never got close to one another in Darkrime Delves).

This is pretty much my thinking. When an Elder Dragon first corrupts a minion, they can 'program' the minion so that its first loyalty is to the dragon (we see this in Edge of Destiny, which gives us a look into the mind of a dragon minion). Once a being is corrupted, though, a second dragon can't just come in and rewrite the minion so that it's loyal to them instead. It either remains loyal to the first dragon (assuming it hasn't since been cleansed in some manner) or it sunders the link entirely and leaves the minion uncontrolled. Either way, the second dragon gains nothing that it couldn't gain from simply killing a rival dragon's minion.

This naturally explains not only why the dragons don't corrupt each other's minions (they have nothing to gain from doing so), but it also neatly explains the exceptions. Aurene has no problem infusing her power into Caithe because Aurene doesn't want to rob Caithe of her free will, so it doesn't matter if Caithe's status as a cleansed minion of Mordremoth (technically a descendent of one, but nevertheless) prevents her from doing so: she had no plan to do so in the first place. The Inquest are happy to engage in multi-corruption experiments because they already need to find some alternative means of controlling their experimental subjects, so why would they care if corrupting, say, a Risen with Brand energy fails to transfer ownership of the minion from Zhaitan to Kralkatorrik? They don't want the minion to be under the control of either dragon.

No special exceptions "because lab conditions are different to what's in the wild" needed - the theory both neatly explains why we don't normally see it while also explaining the exceptions. Elder Dragons who corrupt minions because they want to gain control over their minions won't do so to minions of other dragons because doing so won't grant them control. But for non-dragons, and dragons that don't care about control such as Aurene, this doesn't matter.

Heck, there's a discussion somewhere in the original release where it's noted that the sylvari aren't actually immune to Zhaitan's corruption... it's just that instead of becoming Risen, sylvari that are afflicted with Zhaitan corruption simply die. Almost like Zhaitan was simply going "you are no use to me" and discarding them.

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@"draxynnic.3719" said:Heck, there's a discussion somewhere in the original release where it's noted that the sylvari aren't actually immune to Zhaitan's corruption... it's just that instead of becoming Risen, sylvari that are afflicted with Zhaitan corruption simply die. Almost like Zhaitan was simply going "you are no use to me" and discarding them.Not just Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik is also established as having the same effect when sylvari are branded - their immunity to any Elder Dragon corruption has been death, not "it doesn't work".

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:Wasn't the entire point of the lockdown because the reactor was unstable from the story mode, thus anything within would die of radiation before long?

Hard to really tell, the two modes are rather disconnected beyond Spire's "I was supposed to kill Kudu but you took that fun job" ranting.

The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"

The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

Agent spire from memory, said at the end that she stopped any vital system and that the facility is now a cold hostile empty coffin. BUT, subject alpha is so heavily different from others and so mutated, that it could survive without oxygen. Plus, as I said no doubt kuda went here restoring the systems to recover her father work. Also the dungeon description states it's collapsing, easy to imagine that some ceiling were cracked letting air pass.

Quote:"We staged this to look like an accident. Other Inquest will show up to investigate. When they fail to get in to the lab, we'll track them back to their bases."But the ones that will show up have grades above Kudu, and no doubt they will succeed into getting in.

Rytlock in story:"We should quit this place and let others deal with the cleanup. Those who know more of magic than I do."

So I assume, Zojia, Logan and Rytlock knew that after story, whispers, vigil or priory would come after.

But Spike were indeed planning to assassinate Kudu, and we arrived before. But it is strange, how she arrived to us, whereas the other labs were closed, and the reactor contaminated? If she passed through the aquarium and alpha reserve, she obligatory met alpha, locking herself with it.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Dragon corruption is the act of imbuing dragon energy into something. You're right that "draconic energy != draconic corruption", but that's the same as saying "oxygen != breathing". Breathing is not the same as oxygen, but (in most Earthly life) uses oxygen; similarly, dragon corruption is not the same as draconic energy, but it uses draconic energy. However, one can not be imbued with draconic energy without suffering from dragon corruption. Whether that corruption is benevolent (like the Pale Tree's and Glint's) or hazardous (like Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, Kralkatorrik's, etc.) is another matter.

There is nothing in the game to state that Kudu's monster wasn't corrupted - hell, its very appearance is an active disagreement to that claim, given it looks like a risen giant. Same with Subject Alpha and Subject Beta, the former being literally classified as a risen by the game's mechanics, and the later having a strictly branded appearance. So your first point is nothing short of pure speculation and assumption on your part.

Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

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@"hugo.4705" said:The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"Spire and the Pact had no knowledge of Subject Alpha.

Intercom: Attention!Intercom: Subject Alpha has escaped!Agent Spire: Keep moving. I don't want to be buried here.Agent Spire: Stand back. Watch me push a button. Oooh, maybe I'll flip a lever.Intercom: Attention!Intercom: Secuity protocols engaged. Lockdown measures are now in effect.Agent Spire: Well, there goes my exit plan. Listen: there are three contingency plans for escaping this site.

Subject Alpha's escape and the following security protocols weren't part of Spire's plans. Hence why we couldn't leave the way we came in, and had to go down one of the following three paths.

Incidentally, if you choose the submarine path, the sub breaks through the wall and thus kinda renders the entire lockdown moot because there's a big ass hole in the wall flooding the lab.

The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

I figured it'd still be leaking because Logan and Rytlock wanted Zojja to abandon the plan to go after Kudu.

Rytlock Brimstone: Look at this mess. I'm not going in there.Zojja: That reactor isn't going to last much longer.Rytlock Brimstone: Then that's our cue to pull back.Zojja: No! I will not let Kudu escape again! This ends now!Logan Thackeray: Rytlock's right. I'm not a fan of growing extra limbs. So how do you plan on getting us through there?Zojja: You're speaking to a genius, remember? Stay close to Mr. Sparkles and you'll be safe.

Throughout the entire story dungeon, the reactor is going closer and closer to critical, and earlier when asked about the reactor going into meltdown, Zojja mentions that it happened before "near the Hinterlabs" (referring to Thaumanova). Half of the reason we're rushing to Kudu was because we needed to kill him a) before he succeeded and b) before he blew the reactor up and repeated Thaumanova. If it could be solved by simply sealing, why didn't Zojja do that instead of literally walk through the reactor full of radiation?

Looking at it, seems Spire's goal was to force every door to close and lock. Kinda weird since we navigate the entire complex after she entered the code... Also kinda weird given the security protocols with Subject Alpha's presence locking down all the doors of the room its in was somehow unexpected after she entered the code...

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@"Tyson.5160" said:Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

The problem there is twofold:

  1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
  2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.
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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

The problem there is twofold:
  1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
  2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.

I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Given the above examples, Kudus Monster, Subject Alpha, Etc. I suppose it is possible that these creatures are at first corrupted by Zhaitan and then imbued with the other dragon energies. Somewhat similar with how the dragon uses other dead dragon’s sphere for corruption.

Kudus monster and Subject Alpha are Risen given the appearance, yet they are now using the different types of energies.

Is it a rogue minion, or is this monster still technically under Zhaitan’s control? Does any dragon have control of this minion or is Zhaitan the major sphere of influence?

Perhaps there is truth of a dragon minion can’t be corrupted by another dragon, however when exposed to other dragon’s spheres, this minion can now use that dragon’s energy, perhaps without the permission or control of that particular Elder Dragon. That would explain the cross contamination, as well as how Caithe can be imbued with Aurene’s energy while still being a minion of Mordremoth.

The problem there is twofold:
  1. The Inquest don't know how to separate the two, or at least there's zero evidence suggesting they do, and sufficient show that they don't. We see in the story mode that all they do in their "experiments" is expose people to the energies, which turns them into full-fledged dragon minions. Not "people augmented with dragon magic" or the like.
  2. Subject Alpha is capable of controlling all dragon minions nearby it, which indicates that it is part of each dragon minions' hive mind, as that hive mind is how they differ friend from foe. This would indicate it was not just exposed / augmented with dragon energies, but suffered from dragon corruption of all five relevant Elder Dragons.

I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

Would say the first, alpha to me is acting free will of revenge or fear: It simply group together all the minions to attack the personnel that contained it.Its reserve was surely equipped of mental waves inhibitors, if not any minion of the lab would be always rogue. Imho.

I just think alpha has its own hive mind, stronger than the one of any dragon.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:The lockdown was to avoid the escape of Alpha. Really, they don't care about the status of the reactor, the database or whatever.The Intercom speaks when alpha appears/ is defeated. (Quarantine in effect/lifted)Plus each path starts with: "Alpha escaped!" followed by "Lockdown now in effect"Spire and the Pact had no knowledge of Subject Alpha.
Intercom: Attention!Intercom: Subject Alpha has escaped!Agent Spire: Keep moving. I don't want to be buried here.Agent Spire: Stand back. Watch me push a button. Oooh, maybe I'll flip a lever.Intercom: Attention!Intercom: Secuity protocols engaged. Lockdown measures are now in effect.Agent Spire: Well, there goes my exit plan. Listen: there are three contingency plans for escaping this site.

Subject Alpha's escape and the following security protocols weren't part of Spire's plans. Hence why we couldn't leave the way we came in, and had to go down one of the following three paths.

Incidentally, if you choose the submarine path, the sub breaks through the wall and thus kinda renders the entire lockdown moot because there's a big kitten hole in the wall flooding the lab.

The reactor indeed leaked in story, I dunno how much time passed before exploration paths (will assume 15 mins), but you will notice that in explo, the arcane reactor is sealed and unnacessible, thus no radiation anywhere. And so, employees/ dragon minions alive around the facility. Dunno why you think it's still leaking... It just created radiation in the reactor, but the real threat were the cascade resonance fields. Do you think that medics would heal in the room near the reactor if it was irradiated? And no, don't say they are just idiots. (Well maybe they will be injured like the ones in the tent hospital near thaumanova)

I figured it'd still be leaking because Logan and Rytlock wanted Zojja to abandon the plan to go after Kudu.
Rytlock Brimstone: Look at this mess. I'm not going in there.Zojja: That reactor isn't going to last much longer.Rytlock Brimstone: Then that's our cue to pull back.Zojja: No! I will not let Kudu escape again! This ends now!Logan Thackeray: Rytlock's right. I'm not a fan of growing extra limbs. So how do you plan on getting us through there?Zojja: You're speaking to a genius, remember? Stay close to Mr. Sparkles and you'll be safe.

Throughout the entire story dungeon, the reactor is going closer and closer to critical, and earlier when asked about the reactor going into meltdown, Zojja mentions that it happened before "near the Hinterlabs" (referring to Thaumanova). Half of the reason we're rushing to Kudu was because we needed to kill him a) before he succeeded and b) before he blew the reactor up and repeated Thaumanova. If it could be solved by simply sealing, why didn't Zojja do that instead of literally walk through the reactor full of radiation?

So firstly, if we decide with zojia to pass through the arcane reactor, it's because it would take too much time to pass through aquarium and alpha.

In fact, I'm happy you quoted that dialogue, because I just felt like rytlock.

How she knew that it was the shorter path? Maybe she had a plan of the facility. If so, they knew a place is called alpha reserve. To me, she only took a very unnecessary dangerous risk just to kill Kudu before it escapes. It was needed to simply seal it, but we simply passed through. The reactor melted down, but not in the way it will explodes, zojia also states it is surely due to "overstressing the mystic diodes" so, to me the capacitors exploded, liberating the cascade field, and cutting the power supply of the containment chambers. The meltdown of the reactor is the cause of why alpha and other evolved foes weren't contained anymore, with all those inquest cadavers around the crucible during exploration paths. I kinda also find it quite surprising and convenient that mr sparkles is radiation proof.....

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@"Tyson.5160" said:I guess my question is, is Subject Alpha separate and under no dragon’s control or is It controlled by all of them.

Hard to say, since we don't see it do anything than kill all non-dragon minions (or try to). No communications, no interactions with dragon goals. There's not a lot you can infer from "it's killing (or trying to kill) all non-dragon minions in the labs".

My theory is that it's the latter, but with a slight twist: it hears the hive minds and commands of all five Elder Dragons, and this has driven it into insanity because of the conflicting mentalities forced upon it, resulting in a maddened killing machine that can control all five dragons' minions.

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