Question about rotations?

[rng.1024]

Since I am currently stuck without a pc or internet connection, I enjoy browsing the forums quite a bit to get my gw2 fix. Especially the topics that include proper rotations since I feel it's becoming a forgotten skill these days.

Conquest is a complex mode, and just playing it like deathmatch has become more of a viable option for the new generation of pvp'ers with access to elite specs. However rotations can still counter alot of mistakes and drawbacks, and most importantly really help your team win the hard matches - all in all it's still the #1 thing that helps you improve your winrate no matter your mechanical prowess.

My philosophy is that there are always an optimal rotation for any scenario, so I will give it my all and try to explain my logic in the simplest way possible.

So if you have any questions/scenarios you wonder what would be the proper rotation, don't hesitate to ask!

I am sure we have many good players who can chime in if they feel my advice is bad, I just wanted a thread where everyone can join and any critisism just ensures the answer you get will be better :)

[Dantheman.3589]

In ranked u need to know 2 kinds of rotations- 1.) splits, basically which spread your team will take ex.) 1 home 3 mid and 1 far and who will take these rotation 2.) whatever is the winning optimal rotation, can be class based or role based rotation based on your splits ex.) take far and if no one contest rotate to help team or a objective. This can also just be “we only need 1 node to win this, so rotate to that node and just die on point if you have to”

[rng.1024]

@Dantheman.3589 said:In ranked u need to know 2 kinds of rotations- 1.) splits, basically which spread your team will take ex.) 1 home 3 mid and 1 far and who will take these rotation 2.) whatever is the winning optimal rotation, can be class based or role based rotation based on your splits ex.) take far and if no one contest rotate to help team or a objective. This can also just be “we only need 1 node to win this, so rotate to that node and just die on point if you have to”

Yeah these are important to recognise. In my experience most seem to struggle when things do not go according to plan, aka when normally good plays go bad.

But yeah it's kind of like rolling 2 dice, betting on the midrange of all possible results will increase your chances of a win because there are more favourable outcomes in that range - the same applies for rotations especially if you don't know your team, better to play it safe ^^

You also need the impact to follow through on your rotations (atleast most of the time), this is what makes builds meta. So wholeheartedly agree you need to know your role to do make the most of your map presence.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Rotations are very seriously a system designed around the use of blatant common sense.

Nothing more needs to be said.

[rng.1024]

Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:Why is this moment in the match so important?

(I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

[rng.1024]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors, but not all are used to reading the minimap, counting death timers or making time-sensitive decisions. I believe however that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

[Antioche.7034]

@rng.1024 said:Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:Why is this moment in the match so important?

I mean, it definately depends on where the ennemies are located. You need to play 2.5 nodes at least, so for instance if their whole team is standing on far your best bet is to try to get two kills in the mess with everyone there xD

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@rng.1024 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some shit someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean. Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

[rng.1024]

@Antioche.7034 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:

Why is this moment in the match so important?

I mean, it definately depends on where the ennemies are located. You need to play 2.5 nodes at least, so for instance if their whole team is standing on far your best bet is to try to get two kills in the mess with everyone there xD

Thank you so much for answering, the anticipation was killing me!

I believe you speak for many how this is what goes through your head in the moment. The problem with doing that is though is you hinge it all on a few of the enemy players going down - which might not end up being the case. What more can you do as a team to give yourselves the absolute highest chance for success? ^^

(No wrong answers here)

[rng.1024]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread ->

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some kitten someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean.

Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about

and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

It kind of just spurred from impatience on my end I must admit, but you might be right.

I don't see rotations as hard rules at all actually, you always have to look at the situations handed to you - aslong as you don't pick the worst choice you are bound to improve so what to do and what not to do are two sides of the same coin.

Thinking while playing. Perhaps this is what we need to encourage. I quite enjoy the quiz style so I wouldn't mind posting only those from now on if people are interested and feel it helps! :)

Great feedback, much appreciated Trevor ^^

[Dantheman.3589]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:There is no way to actually rotations. Rotations are common sense.

If you have a lot of common sense, rotations come naturally. If you do not, you'll always be bad at conquest.

Indeed it's pure logic if you know all the factors. But I believe that with hammering in some basic rules and evoking thought we can all start to improve one game at a time. It's all about perspective and motivation, and I believe I speak for most when I say winning games is fun ^^

I actually think you're doing it the right way in this thread with a quiz type question set. You can't really set rules of thumb for rotations. Believe me, many have tried, including myself while writing this thread ->

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest

The problem with trying to provide new players a rules of thumb list for rotations, is that while you are trying to design that list, you realize it cannot be done. Rotations are like a mixture of 1) A players raw knowledge & experience of the game & current meta, and 2) The speed of their common sense to calculate ahead while using that information, as to what their next action or two will result in. When you REALLY sit down and try to make a list of do's and do nots for rotations, it just cannot be done because no matter what you write as a do or don't, there are always circumstances that can change those rules of thumbs, and they often do.

In other words, a list of rules is limiting and deceiving for new players. The best we can really do for them, is explain to them some very basic fundamentals about their job role, and when to stomp or cleave, or when to revive or let someone die, ect ect, and that at all costs they should try to survive in the match rather than meat grind. Beyond that, making them ask questions and think about things situationally, like your quiz there, seems to be the best way to teach people. So rather than teach them rules, you are getting them to utilize problem solving skills in general, while looking at some said given circumstance, rather than tunnel visioning some kitten someone told them about how a Thief should always push far. If you see what I mean.

Those fast problem solving skills & mental calculations of the current circumstance <- That right there is what rotations are really all about

and new players can never grasp that if they are left clinging onto rules of thumb that aren't even necessarily true all of the time.

But yeah, looking at how you laid down a quiz with a hypothetical situation, that's a good way to go about it. Rather than give them answers, get them to start asking the right questions: I had never thought about laying it out like that before.

I’m not the op, but I believe telling some examples of rotations can be helpful to new players, some of whom may have done pve or looked up enough about their class or build to understand their own mechanics and even the meta fairly well, but that doesn’t mean that they already have a sense for the map itself or what will win their matches since our pvp is fairly different from other common games like mobas. What the op is saying can so far can give them an idea of what’s important in pvp that they may have not known for thousands of matches until a high level player points out that they shouldn’t have abandoned the 1 node they needed to win or that they don’t need to Zerg far for kills if they already own half the map. Or in this case if they can look at the map and predict an outcome they will have a better understanding of why they won or lost which leads to less frustration and more opportunities to learn.

[Avatar.3568]

@rng.1024 said:Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:Why is this moment in the match so important?

(I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

[Dantheman.3589]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:

Why is this moment in the match so important?

(I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

Side noders often find high value in taking an aggressive position or at least much more than afking on an uncontested node. So if your team goes far to team fight and there’s no value in defending mid as hypothetically say the entire other team is bunkering home- the side noders optimal rotation would be adding pressure to far or taking advantage of objectives like beast which may give you the winning points or even the sword buff if the enemy team will just Rez themselves over and over. I’d say if you need beast to win the best person to go for it is a side noder, then the roamer which maybe better suited for stealing it from enemies and then as a last resort your team fight dps like a reaper if that is the deciding move.

[rng.1024]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz time!

Scenario:

• You are down 450-480
• You own home and mid
• Enemy owns far

What is the correct play for:

• Your teamfighter?
• Your support?
• Your duelist?
• Your roamer?

Bonus question:

Why is this moment in the match so important?

(I can post more of these after someone comes with a suggestion if anyone find these helpful)

Depends on deaths on both teams, but I would say roamer should catch up the enemy roamer, duelist should take a look at mid, but goes with rest on far and trys to get the decap

Idk I can sidenode but I have actually no clue

You are onto something there! :) However it is just as important at this stage of the game that you keep both of your nodes in order to win since with 1 cap each the enemy still wins. What is the best way to defend them?

[rng.1024]

Solution:

Let's take a look at the status quo. For every point the enemy team gets, you get double. They need 20 points to win, meaning by that time you will have gotten 20×2=40 points.

Looking at your score that means the game will end (450+40)490-500. Decapping that node is therefore a win-condition (necessary action in order to win a match) and the entire enemy team knows it.

It's all hands on deck now to get that point decapped quick because all the enemy has to do to win is to all defend their home.

Teamfighter:The teamfighter needs to go far. Simply because you need kills there and the more node pressure the better. The teamfight will happen there.

Support:The support should always follow a teamfighter and be in every teamfight to support, which is indeed what is going to be the case at far and they're going to need lots of it to sustain the full force of the enemy team.

Duelist:The correct play is for the duelist (just 1 if you have more) to stay behind, guarding mid with an eye on home.

• Why mid?Because mid is closer to their respawn, so if he sees someone go close he can follow - this means the enemy team has to send 2 players to decap mid instead of 1 roamer f.ex that can get to mid real fast and decap while the duelists tries to run there from home.

• Why the duelist?Because duelist builds are generally better at holding a cap while surviving on the node than roamer builds. That is his job now, to see which node the enemy goes for and contest it (meaning he has to abandon the other node).

Roamer:The roamer needs to help spike down targets at far. In the scenario the enemy team sends 2 players for mid and your home - which is a bad play - the roamer will have an easy 4v3 at far and should go guard mid the moment they get 1 down at far. If the enemy team is smart they will all be at far, and this is when the duelist should come aswell (since no fear of decaps) and it becomes the roamers responsibility to keep an eye on mid (since it is the closest node from far and he is faster than the duelist).

\\\\\\\\\\o//////////////////////////////

These rotations allow for the absolute highest chance of success in this scenario while it should also give you some general info and reasoning of conquest roles. I admit this might be a little tl;dr for many, so I will make the next one shorter and simpler :)

[MyPuppy.8970]

You should make quizzes with minimap examples and team compositions/timers/score... (even tweaked or photoshoped for the purpose of the exercise) like actual homework.

[Edit: forgot about your material issue, but i think it would be nice otherwise]

[rng.1024]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:You should make quizzes with minimap examples and team compositions/timers/score... (even tweaked or photoshoped for the purpose of the exercise) like actual homework.

[Edit: forgot about your material issue, but i think it would be nice otherwise]

That could be fun! Always thought visible learning is easier, and especially more applicaple here since you see the situations on your own minimap often f.ex.

Problem is I'm not sure if there is enough interest as this method of showcasing only gets better with more participants like a seminar ^^

[rng.1024]

Quiz #2!

Scenario:

• There is a 3v3 going on at mid
• You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
• The node is enemy capped
• Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

What should you do next? :o

Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

(Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

[MyPuppy.8970]

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #2!

Scenario:

• There is a 3v3 going on at mid
• You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
• The node is enemy capped
• Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

What should you do next? :o

Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

(Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

Hmmm... i'd say decap home, move to 5v4 mid for fast wipe (if ennemy has rotated), then someone should get back home to recap it, 2 stay mid finish the downed while you move far and thief +1 for trying fast decap (if ennemy stayed far to guard it and if other duellist hasn't respawned yet), then gtfo to regroup somewhere between mid/close.

[rng.1024]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #2!

Scenario:

• There is a 3v3 going on at mid
• You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
• The node is enemy capped
• Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

What should you do next? :o

Bonus question:

What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

(Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

Hmmm... i'd say decap home, move to 5v4 mid for fast wipe (if ennemy has rotated), then someone should get back home to recap it, 2 stay mid finish the downed while you move far and thief +1 for trying fast decap (if ennemy stayed far to guard it and if other duellist hasn't respawned yet), then gtfo to regroup somewhere between mid/close.

That is alot of ifs :astonished:

And who (you or thief)should do what? Is there a way to make your rotations more time - and therefore score - efficient?

You are touching on something I planned on bringing up in this solution (good catch! :) ) which is; Is there an optimal way for you to rotate here that allows you to pretty much disregard what the enemy team chooses to do?

[Avatar.3568]

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #2!

Scenario:

• There is a 3v3 going on at mid
• You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
• The node is enemy capped
• Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

What should you do next? :o

Bonus question: What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

(Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

As ranger, I would go mid, do my lb5 and try to get one downed, maybe even with full kill, and than far if it's free

[rng.1024]

@Avatar.3568 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #2!

Scenario:

• There is a 3v3 going on at mid
• You, as a duelist, just got bested 1v1 on your home node
• The node is enemy capped
• Your thief comes in, gets the kill which in turn rallies you

What should you do next? :o

Bonus question:

What is the 2nd thing you should do and why?

(Anyone can come with suggestions, any answers that are suboptimal we will explain why :) )

As ranger, I would go mid, do my lb5 and try to get one downed, maybe even with full kill, and than far if it's free

It's makes sense going mid doesn't it?

Is there something you could do here that would improve your score-gain on top of winning fights? Those few extra points might make the difference.

And what should the thief do?

(You have no idea how happy I get over your replies, I almost can't wait all day to post the solution! :) )

[rng.1024]

Solution:

Let's look at the status quo. We know 3 enemies are at mid and you just killed 1 on your home node. Unless you can spot the last one on the minimap, chances are he is guarding far.

First off you should let the thief rotate off while you capture the point.

• Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best.
• Why should you cap the node? We already know the node can be capped before the defeated enemy respawns, and outnumbering any fight with more than 1 player is in general a bad idea. It's the thief's responsibility to swing the midfight now.

Now what is your next move? You should always assume the enemy team make perfect rotations, this way whatever you do will have some impact.

The respawning player has 2 options now:He knows close is guarded and that you guys can now freely run over to mid, so the correct play for him is to rush mid as fast as possible to equalize the fight.

• Why not go far again? Because then he dooms his teammates at mid which allows your team to zerg home and kill him right after - this is called a dead rotation (where you benefit for a brief moment only to be at a massive disadvantage later on).

You are therefore not needed in mid. Home is yours and the optimal rotation is therefore to push far.

• Why not defend your point? Because you know where all the enemy players are (no need to guard an unagressed node), and the thief makes sure mid is won. By going far you can start agressing the player holding it well knowing the thief should be on his way the moment they get a kill in mid. Even if the respawning player decaps your home again you will have a winning 2- cap and the rest of your team should already be on it.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

This example showcases how you can keep a winning position while sweeping across the map - a move often referred to as snowballing. It may be really tempting to join the midfight, but that could cost you both sidenodes which is called an over-rotation (sending more players than necessary to a fight, leaving your other nodes vulnerable to decaps).

Instead here you can be sure you will come out with a 2-cap no matter what the enemy does and give your team the best possible chance to win both engagements as quickly as possible.

[rng.1024]

If you enjoy these, please give this a thumbs up so I can get some idea how many are following this thread :)

If you want I can post several each day with a few hours before the solution, but I think discussing is more beneficial as I want you to think about rotations.

And as always, if you have a question please please don't hesitate to post your own!

(BIG thanks to those who have dared participate so far, you can be assured many are thinking the same thing while playing!)

[rng.1024]

Quiz #3!

Scenario:

• Game starts
• Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

What do you do?

Bonus question:Why is your decision important even this early in the match?