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Question about rotations?


rng.1024

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@"Highlie.7641" said:"Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

It's those slim chances you need to eliminate to consistently win your matches.

Sure the thief can do that but not only do you risk losing caps, it relies on the thief to not make any wrong decisions - which not all thieves are able to do. The midfight can also swing long before the duelist gets there and you (the thief) is at far, so you run a great risk.

This is why proper rotations are so important as good teams will punish you every single time you take a risk ^^

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@rng.1024 said:Quiz #3!

Scenario:

  • Game starts
  • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

What do you do?

Bonus question:Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

Haaaa this one cracked me up! Also, imagine if all of your teammates were core necros! II play either support or bunker sidenode so I would just /gg =)

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@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #3!

Scenario:
  • Game starts
  • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

What do you do?

Bonus question:
Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

Haaaa this one cracked me up! Also, imagine if all of your teammates were core necros! II play either support or bunker sidenode so I would just /gg =)

Yeah this is quite a common scenario we've all experienced at some point :p

I believe many would /gg with you here because it is a terrible play, but sometimes you just have to make the best out of a bad situation since the match is still very much winnable!

All core necros.. I can work with that :astonished:

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@rng.1024 said:Quiz #3!

Scenario:

  • Game starts
  • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

What do you do?

Bonus question:Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

I play Support Scourge so I should be in teamfight, but in this case perhaps I will go home to cap the node and hold/kite in case the opponents leave 1 mid to cap and send multiple players into home node.

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1st rotation: unranked.

2nd rotation: full 5 man squad of pwr shatter chronos.

3rd rotation: 5x blink bursts.

4th rotation: continue to burst.

5th rotation: spawn camp the enemy team.

6th rotation: receive bms and win by 400+ points.

Rotations are ez.

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@Garret.1965 said:1st rotation: unranked.

2nd rotation: full 5 man squad of pwr shatter chronos.

3rd rotation: 5x blink bursts.

4th rotation: continue to burst.

5th rotation: spawn camp the enemy team.

6th rotation: receive bms and win by 400+ points.

Rotations are ez.

Pretty sure you could win with kills alone on that comp.. :s

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@Hiin.5137 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #3!

Scenario:
  • Game starts
  • Everyone on your team goes far :astonished:

What do you do?

Bonus question:
Why is your decision important even this early in the match?

I play Support Scourge so I should be in teamfight, but in this case perhaps I will go home to cap the node and hold/kite in case the opponents leave 1 mid to cap and send multiple players into home node.

I see this quite a bit, and the logic of splitting the enemy team is sound.

The downside is that they might need you to support and you can very much be zerged on far from your teammates - which makes it an incredibly risky rotation.

A good player will see you at close and simpy opt to 5v4 the rest of your team and not bother engaging you (giving them mid for free aswell).

This is why it's a dead rotation: If the enemy team is good they will 5v4 far, then cap mid and come for you. You might be able to hold the cap for 10+ seconds but your entire team will wipe and the other team will control the whole map with atleast a 2-cap because you aren't included in the equation (if they all wipe you will need to hold it for 42 seconds to get any value!). You are probably the most important player on your team - they simply can't afford having you stuck on an unagressed node.

Is there something you can do where the enemy team's decision won't put you at a disadvantage? ^^

(You already said it yourself actually.. ;) )

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Solution:

Always take a look at status quo. The most common split (initial allocation of players across the map) is to send 1 to home. This means at any other node, in this case your mid and your close, you will be heavily outnumbered.

The correct rotation is therefore to stick with your team and go far. Very often you will see players going elsewhere and die quickly, allowing the enemy team to stagger (constantly 5v4 due to respawns) you which is really bad on maps like Battle of Khylo because there is no secondary mechanic to make up for it.

The other reason going far is beneficial, is because you can extremely quickly get the one kill and instantly move towards mid - hopefully before it caps fully. The enemy team are now only 4 players on the map so you have an excellent chance of winning the midfight and reclaiming home right after for total map control following a rocky start.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

As you might have begun to notice, use your rotations as a tool to remove options from the enemy team. Even better sometimes you can leave them with only bad ones, and this ensures you always have the upper hand score-wise. This in turn builds a cushion of points in case someone on your team messes up, and punishes the enemy for making risky (suboptimal) plays.

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Quiz #4!

Scenario:

  • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
  • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
  • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

Should you go for beast here?

Bonus question:Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

(I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

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@Highlie.7641 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@Highlie.7641 said:"Why the thief? Because he can get to mid faster than you, also outnumbering an ongoing fight spiking low targets is what he does best."

There are two reasons, On the off chance the thief does go mid and there is no one low enough to spike, he has the option to go far, since it was 3vs3 on mid, there person capping home is half way back to mid at this point. If the thief decaps and goes spawn, there is a slim chance he can force the respawned to mid, If not the thief can still create a 5on4.

Who the hell wants to play boring kitten hopscotch though, That kitten's for brainless zombies drooling on there keyboards.

It's those slim chances you need to eliminate to consistently win your matches.

Sure the thief can do that but not only do you risk losing caps, it relies on the thief to not make any wrong decisions - which not all thieves are able to do. The midfight can also swing long before the duelist gets there and you (the thief) is at far, so you run a great risk.

This is why proper rotations are so important as good teams will punish you every single time you take a risk ^^

Your not going to lose anything

its 3on3 on mid, one on far and one home, There is 0 chances to lose anything. the "slim chance" is there are no targets to burst....

Edit** had mid instead of home.

What if the guy the thief killed just runs to your home again?

Mid stays decapped, home gets lost and the thief is in an unfavourable matchup at far - you leave way to much up to circumstance and your teammates this way, forcing your team to respond to what the enemy does instead of controlling the map.

Any decent duelist will hold the far cap against a thief.

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@rng.1024 said:Quiz #4!

Scenario:

  • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
  • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
  • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

Should you go for beast here?

Bonus question:Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

(I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

Look minimap, if thief is close and enemy's fighting under mid I go help team if kill is possible, if not I stay at kite position on the higher ground and chill far as long my team Is winning mid close, defend point in 1vs1, kite or run away if 1vs2, and

if they do beast try to steal

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Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

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@Avatar.3568 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #4!

Scenario:
  • You are playing on Forest Of Niflhel
  • You have just bested (stomped) another duelist on far and proceeded to capture the node.
  • Svanir and Chieftain spawns

Should you go for beast here?

Bonus question:
Why do some secondary objectives matter more than others?

(I know there are alot if duelist scenarios, but the reason being that you will find yourself in these situations regardless in lower tiers. I promise the next one will be a teamfighter or support ^^)

Look minimap, if thief is close and enemy's fighting under mid I go help team if kill is possible, if not I stay at kite position on the higher ground and chill far as long my team Is winning mid close, defend point in 1vs1, kite or run away if 1vs2, and

if they do beast try to steal

Looking at the minimap here is excellent advice! :)

As far as I can tell you'd rather rotate off, followed by defending the node and only go beast if they do?

This is good - you are considering many factors. However you are basing your reactions on what the enemy does, is there anything you can do here to force their hand instead?

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@"otto.5684" said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

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@rng.1024 said:

@"otto.5684" said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

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@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

So you are completely right :)

(Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

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@Highlie.7641 said:

What if the guy the thief killed just runs to your home again?

Mid stays decapped, home gets lost and the thief is in an unfavourable matchup at far - you leave way to much up to circumstance and your teammates this way, forcing your team to respond to what the enemy does instead of controlling the map.

Any decent duelist will hold the far cap against a thief.

you don't understand.... Mid is decapped, your home is capped (thiefs team) and the enemeys is decapped. The thief isn't in an unfavourable posistion at all. since he went respawn, he's already got most of the respawner's abilities on CD by the time they even reach the point. OR the dudes tried to turn and fight the thief. it's a win win in both situations.

You are assuming the thief ran straigt to far (which we know is guarded) and got the decap, then ran back to close - what if he can't get the decap?

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Solution:

You should absolutely not go for beast here.

  • Why? Because it takes a few seconds to decap, and 5+ to fully capture the node. The guy you killed is now nearly respawned and can easily reach you before you can kill the beast to steal it, or even worse decap his home node instead.

By holding the node doing beast is out of the question for your respawned opponent. The enemy team will now have to send another player to your third of the map (which you fully control) in order to stop bleeding points which can only benefit your team elsewhere.

It is never worth doing beast at the cost of a node, since the players doing them have no map presence (score impact). Doing beast is always therefore a dead rotation, which is why you always need to make sure no enemies are threatening your nodes or in range for a steal to minimize risk.

Some secondary objectives can be ignored while still allowing you to win the game with a 2-cap, like

  • Djinn's Dominion
  • Eternal Coliseum
  • Forest of Niflhel
  • Legacy of the Foefire

Others cannot be ignored else you will lose the match even with a consistent 2-cap, like

  • Revenge of the Capricorn
  • Skyhammer
  • Temple of the Silent Storm

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Always be careful with secondary objectives. Only do them when you have nowhere better to be on the map, but remember nodes are always more impactful. Often a secondary objective will be your win-condition, learn to recognise when that is.

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Quiz #5!

Scenario:

  • You are a teamfighter
  • You just won the first midfight (2 enemies dead, 2 in downstate) with the help of your duelist who came in after capping close
  • Close and mid are now yours

What should you do?

Bonus question:Where should your support be?

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@rng.1024 said:Quiz #5!

Scenario:

  • You are a teamfighter
  • You just won the first midfight (2 enemies dead, 2 in downstate) with the help of your duelist who came in after capping close
  • Close and mid are now yours

What should you do?

Bonus question:Where should your support be?

ALL PUSH FAR

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@rng.1024 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

So you are completely right :)

(Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

Ya. In losing games I want to be the one who takes the risk ?. I don’t want a G3 necro going far. Just stick it out mid. Maintain home and contest mid. open space so highly skilled players could carry or a well skilled thief or rev to quickly decap or +1 in a less crowded fights.

On the flip side, games with highly skilled players rarely have room for strategy. They are more likely to be determined based on class/build composition more than game player skill or strategy, sadly.

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@Hiin.5137 said:

@rng.1024 said:Quiz #5!

Scenario:
  • You are a teamfighter
  • You just won the first midfight (2 enemies dead, 2 in downstate) with the help of your duelist who came in after capping close
  • Close and mid are now yours

What should you do?

Bonus question:
Where should your support be?

ALL PUSH FAR

:astonished:

Why is that a good/bad idea?

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@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

So you are completely right :)

(Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

Ya. In losing games I want to be the one who takes the risk ?. I don’t want a G3 necro going far. Just stick it out mid. Maintain home and contest mid. open space so highly skilled players could carry or a well skilled thief or rev to quickly decap or +1 in a less crowded fights.

On the flip side, games with highly skilled players rarely have room for strategy. They are more likely to be determined based on class/build composition more than game player skill or strategy, sadly.

This is good insight! I get what you are saying about highly skilled games, however it just means the enemy can not only match your rotations but they can also outcomp you. This means it's less room for mistakes, so differences in player skill can easily affect the outcome. But yeah, comp matters way way more when both teams can rotate because of it's rock/paper/scissors nature ^^

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