Cantha and Elder Dragons, fun theory for the future.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:So you're arguing that the path

only

existed post-Orr... except that Elona was cut off, and that path was still patrolled by Tyrians. So it couldn't have existed until the events of PoF reopened communications and borders.

Which is exactly why I consider it a weird path - the dialogue implies that we're taking a common Elonian trade route which is patrolled by Joko's forces. But said route couldn't exist for more than a few months - a few years at the very most (and this demands avoiding both Joko

and

Tyrian patrols.Konig, Elona is a a very specific region of the world. Elona itself doesn't technically begin until the Joko Wall. Everything north of that is part of the Crystal Desert, which is part of Tyria.

Please stop splitting hairs, you know what I meant - Central Tyria nations (e.g., Kryta, Lion's Arch, etc.) and Elonian cultures (e.g., Elona nation and Amnoon and nomads in the desert). Also, the Crystal Desert was included in the lockdown as firmly established right off the bat in Path of Fire:

First Mate Fidus Foecrush: Our navigational charts didn't say nothing about gigantic pyramids. Didn't think our info was so out-of-date.Pact Commander: It's been hard for cartographers to keep up. This entire region has been in lockdown since Palawa Joko took over.

Amnoon has been cut off from Central Tyria since Joko took over.

Joko never had any ability to block off trade from Amnoon to Ebonhawke.Who said it was Joko's doing? The dialogue during Sparking the Flame is pretty clearly painting it being the nations of Tyria who cut off ties to Elona, not the other way around. They didn't even have knowledge of re-established Amnoon's oldest structures.

If the DSD had in fact begun its march near the Battle Isles (more on why we know this isn't so later), then the fact that the quaggans and krait aren't near Elona is, in fact, the oddity. You claim it's a "detour", but that's only so if they were intentionally seeking out the Sea of Sorrows - if their goal was simply fleeing from the DSD, then any shallow land would suffice, and Elona is much closer from their starting point. The only counter to them seeking the closest shallow lands would be if the DSD had cut them off from that direction first.Or, you know, because the DSD was to the south of them, and its forces were pushing north, so everyone naturally flee north to get as far away from it as possible, instead of going side to side where less distance is gained. You wouldn't want to go the closest shallow lands, because that traps you between the DSD and land. Going far away puts more distance between the two of you, instead of having to flee a little, get encroached on again ,and flee again. Your argument only makes sense if we assume all of the Krait, Largos, and Quaggan are just totally stupid.

Entire nations worth of refugees do not flee in a straight line. Look at any historical refugee event to see proof of that. And they DSD lives in deep seas, so finding shallow lands is considered a safe haven for them. Hence why they even began heading to land, even risking Orrian waters, rather than skirting around and going west.

Also, largos haven't fled from the deep sea dragon.

Like the norn and kodan, those who flee the Elder Dragons would do so in a cone or scattered directional movement, not a straight line. This is why I suggest the DSD began further west, and pushed north / northeast into quaggan lands - because by using a cone, they would hit Elona as well as Orr, while if they were west, then they would hit Orr, the Tarnished Coast, and the western coast of the Maguuma instead.The Norn didn't go in a cone though, they went straight south, led by Asgeir and the Spirits, who founded Hoelbrek,

Tell that to Leadfoot Village and the other norn who went to Drizzlewood after Jormag. I'm sure if there's any survivors of the Dominion's invasion, that they'd tell you otherwise.

Likewise, the Kodan were forced to follow the ice sea, and all ended up trapped in Frostgorge sound(the map), and the watery areas north of it. Neither of them scattered, or coned out. If the Kodan had scattered, we would expect to have heard of Kodan sanctuary cities along the coast of the woodland cascades, between there and the Isles of Janthir. Instead they all seemed to have been forced down one path.

Again, wrong.

However, with the rise of the Elder Dragon Jormag, the great ice ships of the kodan were driven apart. Some fled to the north; others were capsized, torn apart, and destroyed by the dragon's wrath. Some few escaped southward, cut off from their fellows by the destruction and rising tide.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wisdom_and_Power_of_the_Kodan

They were, indeed, scattered to different directions. We haven't been to the coasts of the Woodland Cascades to know if any kodan sanctuaries went there. We've seen less than half of the kodan race. That's just the easiest to track down source, btw. There's others out there establishing that they were scattered to all directions, not just north and south.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Please stop splitting hairsNo. you do not get to weasel out of a losing argument by calling anything that disagrees with your theories splitting hairs.

Amnoon has been cut off from Central Tyria since Joko took over.headesk Konig, you make me wonder sometimes, really. I didn't think it needed to be THIS broken down for you, but I guess it will.

1. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_Amnoon "Merchant (2): Then came the Branded migration across our northern trade routes." This clearly establishes that there were trade routes to places north of the brandscar that got cut off when the branded came in.
2. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg Looking at the in-game map, the only known thing north of the brandscar is the path to Ebonhawke
3. The existence of such a route being closed by the branded is confirmed in-game by an NPC near the Closed Passage. Tigmi: Stop! The tunnel's closed. There's no passage north to Ebonhawke this way. You can thank the Branded. And no, we're not going to clear it out. We don't have the resources to move this much rock.
4. This is confirmed on the Ebonhawke side as well, at the Desert Gate. Desert Gate Guard: This gate serves as a barrier against the Branded. They're still streaming south through the mountains toward their master Kralkatorrik, wherever it is now.

QED, we know there was some sort of trade route between Ebonhawke and the Crystal desert that was active in the time between Joko's takeover of Elona(not the Crystal Desert), and Kralk moving into the Crystal Desert during, and immediately after, Edge of Destiny.

And don't forget, in Edge of Destiny they literally walk from just outside Ebonhawke to Glint's lair in the Crystal desert... the same lair thats a stones throw from Makali Outpost. They would have also had to pass nearby Lommuld Kraal on that journey as well. And, if no one has been to Elona since Joko took over, why does the Elonian woman outside of the Closed Passage know about Ebonhawke at all?

THIS IS NO WAY contradicts what either First Mate Fidus Foecrush, or the Commander say, since, in case you forgot, Ebonhawke was under near constant siege by the Charr for years. Its not like they would be sending caravans down south into Elona. They wouldn't have had the resources to do so. They could have met them halfway, or the Elonians came to Ebonhawke and went back, either way, its entirely possible for such a route to exist, and no one in Tyria to have gone to Elona to see the giant pyramids.

However, with the rise of the Elder Dragon Jormag, the great ice ships of the kodan were driven apart. Some fled to the north; others were capsized, torn apart, and destroyed by the dragon's wrath. Some few escaped southward, cut off from their fellows by the destruction and rising tide.I find it ironic, and slightly hypocritical, that you try to use this when your go to argument for most of these pre release articles is that they have been retconed, and thus, are no longer valid. Also, you should see the immediate problem with the statement given here. The Kodan are explicitly stated to have lived in the frozen northern arctic seas. You can't go further north then that, because that is the maximum north of the planet. Anything north of that is just south, but on the other side of the planet.

[Drizzt.1796]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

Add Dragonfall please.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Drizzt.1796 said:Add Dragonfall please.Not my map. Was made by That_Shaman, go ask him.

[Drizzt.1796]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:Not my map. Was made by That_Shaman, go ask him.

Ahh kk.

[Teratus.2859]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Drizzt.1796" said:Add Dragonfall please.Not my map. Was made by That_Shaman, go ask him.

Look like Shaman did a gw1 map overlay onto the Gw2 Cantha but far more cleaner than the quick version I did a while back to show how much of the continent we got to explore in Gw1.Almost has the same proportions as well, though his version has the Gw1 map going further south than mine does.

This was my version.I tried to match up the map lines to get a general idea on the proportions, turned out pretty well imo.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Teratus.2859" said:I tried to match up the map lines to get a general idea on the proportions, turned out pretty well imo.I have made a similar map comparison in the past, and was surprised just how neatly the old GW1 map for Cantha lines up with the world map from GW2. Like, I really expected much greater distortion/variance, but its almost perfect.

Whats also interesting to note is that, if you take the current in-game map, and scale it down to the world map, most everything in Tyria matches up. The northern and southern coasts of the Maguuma, the Ring of Fire, Orr, Frostgorge, Kralkatorrik's emergence lake in the Blood Legion lands, Janthir. However, once you go east of Ascalon, and down into Elona, the in-game map is massively more scrunched inwards compared to the world map texture. With the distortion getting worse the further east you go.

As you can see in the image below, where the islandy part of Istan is less moved from its position on the world map compared to that nameless island just off the coast to the east. The in-game map art represents the land all the way to at least the black lines. Assuming the distortion isn't even further accelerated more past the nameless island, in which case it would go further east of the black line.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Right, let's continue this dance then.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

1. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Free_City_of_Amnoon "Merchant (2): Then came the Branded migration across our northern trade routes." This clearly establishes that there were trade routes to places north of the brandscar that got cut off when the branded came in.False conclusion. You're interpreting that the Dragonbrand is what cut off the trade routes, but that's not what the merchant is saying, it's talking about branded migration. In Fields of Ruins, there are various dialogue telling us that the Branded are migrating south towards Kralkatorrik - usually kept to the Dragonbrand, but sometimes leaving it and assaulting nearby settlements. This is the same occurrence being talked about the merchants - the migration of the branded, not the Dragonbrand's presence. In other words, it's talking about trade routes with the nomad and ogres of Desert Highlands.

2. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/46/Tyria_map_%28clean%29.jpg Looking at the in-game map, the only known thing north of the brandscar is the path to EbonhawkeYou realize there's an entire zone's worth "north of the brandscar" before Ebonhawke, right? Even if the merchant's dialogue was about that area, there's quite a bit before reaching Ebonhawke. So even then, it does not confirm trade between Ebonhawke and Amnoon.

And don't forget, in Edge of Destiny they literally walk from just outside Ebonhawke to Glint's lair in the Crystal desert... the same lair thats a stones throw from Makali Outpost. They would have also had to pass nearby Lommuld Kraal on that journey as well. And, if no one has been to Elona since Joko took over, why does the Elonian woman outside of the Closed Passage know about Ebonhawke at all?I never said "no one's been to Elona since", I said that the nation was on political lockdown, meaning that there was no government sanctioned efforts to go into Elona. Even ignoring Edge of Destiny, in the sylvari Priory personal story we're told that the Durmand Priory had excavations to the Crystal Desert where they found Forgotten rituals (mind you, this seemingly got conveniently ignored for PoF, much like how the Priory's expeditions to Bloodstone Fen was).

Speaking of that conveniently ignored dialogue being retconned:

Ogden Stonehealer: Just remember to share any important discoveries you make. Elona's been isolated for a long time.

THIS IS NO WAY contradicts what either First Mate Fidus Foecrush, or the Commander say, since, in case you forgot, Ebonhawke was under near constant siege by the Charr for years. Its not like they would be sending caravans down south into Elona. They wouldn't have had the resources to do so. They could have met them halfway, or the Elonians came to Ebonhawke and went back, either way, its entirely possible for such a route to exist, and no one in Tyria to have gone to Elona to see the giant pyramids.

So you're arguing that people have been actively trading with Elona even during the past 240 years - which, btw, would predate Zhaitan's rise - yet not a single merchant would ever buy a map of the Crystal Desert.

Besides the fact that you clearly don't know what "lockdown" means, if Tyrians kept official trade with Amnoon until Zhaitan's rise, there would have been roughly 140 years for there to be trade between Kryta and Amnoon

I find it ironic, and slightly hypocritical, that you try to use this when your go to argument for most of these pre release articles is that they have been retconed, and thus, are no longer valid. Also, you should see the immediate problem with the statement given here. The Kodan are explicitly stated to have lived in the frozen northern arctic seas. You can't go further north then that, because that is the maximum north of the planet. Anything north of that is just south, but on the other side of the planet.

I never say those pre-release articles have been retconned unless they have been actively contradicted by newer lore. Though depending on the topic, I may treat it as "two unreliable narrators" rather than blatant retcon. I usually preface the oldest - especially Movement of the Wold - with "unless it/they get retconned", but I never once explicitly proclaim them retconned in their entirety and without proof.

Please stop spreading lies. It's unbecoming of you.

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Whats also interesting to note is that, if you take the current in-game map, and scale it down to the world map, most everything in Tyria matches up. The northern and southern coasts of the Maguuma, the Ring of Fire, Orr, Frostgorge, Kralkatorrik's emergence lake in the Blood Legion lands, Janthir. However, once you go east of Ascalon, and down into Elona, the in-game map is massively more scrunched inwards compared to the world map texture. With the distortion getting worse the further east you go.

I'm curious, if you were to make a cut at where the in-game world map got expanded for PoF, and shifted Elona diagonally down, would it still be "scrunched up"? If not, then in-between Season 2 and PoF, they decided to shift Elona closer to Tyria.

[EdwinLi.1284]

We have to keep in mind DSD infomation is still considered outdated even by ingame NPCs due to how little amount of contact was made towards DSD. The Inquests also still don't have much data about DSD as well and only manage to get one minion of DSD but it escaped.

My best speculation about DSD, if he is involved with Cantha, is that DSD has been sending minions into Cantha for years and maybe at one point made a deal with the current Canthan Emperor where the Canthan Emperor acts more as a puppet king while the true ruler of Cantha now is the DSD communicating through one of his minions. The body maybe far away from Cantha but his minions maybe not.

It may make a interesting Main Storyline position this time being in a Elder Dragon controlled civilization. Worse case is that Cantha may have become a Civilization that worship DSD as a Dragon God with only allies we have are a small group of different resistance fighters, the people tired of being human sacrifices to DSD, and the surviving Luxon/Kurzicks that remained in the shadows of Cantha.

A story that may show what would have happened if a Elder Dragon like Jormag succeeded turning all Charr and Norn species into his minions or cultist worshipping it , except it is majority of Cantha's human population instead, while only a few survivors have not become brainwashed Dragon Worshipping cultists fighting back and hoping to make the people of Cantha realize DSD is not a Dragon God but a monster that only seeks to destroy the world by consuming all forms of Magic.

Of course we also have to consider the reason for the Main Storyline why DSD may head to Cantha. For my speculation, it is because what the Commander did in Cantha by making Cantha no longer worship DSD as a Dragon God and freeing Cantha from DSD control. It will be a interesting conclusion to the story where we may have won the battle but the war has just begun thus instead of a celebration we must prepare to rally our allies now that the Commander can finally make contact with his allies in Tyria since it could be a trap by DSD to trap the Commander in Cantha to be completely cutoff from all his/her allies in Tyria thus removing the Commander from the DSD's invasion of Tyria. It would also be a decent reason why Tyria has been invaded by the DSD during the time when the Commander is trapped in Cantha through the Cantha expansion since the Commander has always been a key figure in all Elder Dragon's defeats and with him/her removed the DSD can easily invade Tyria without fear of the Commander suddenly appearing and changing the result of the war. The Commander will also be completely cutoff from his/her allies thus will be basically alone during the early parts of the Cantha Expansion until he/she meets a ally that is fighting against the DSD controlled Cantha.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:False conclusion. You're interpreting that the Dragonbrand is what cut off the trade routes, but that's not what the merchant is saying, it's talking about branded migration. In Fields of Ruins, there are various dialogue telling us that the Branded are migrating south towards Kralkatorrik - usually kept to the Dragonbrand, but sometimes leaving it and assaulting nearby settlements. This is the same occurrence being talked about the merchants - the migration of the branded, not the Dragonbrand's presence. In other words, it's talking about trade routes with the nomad and ogres of Desert Highlands.You do know where the branded migration happens right? Through the brandscar. Now, look at the map for a second. Where does the brandscar go? Does it go between the Ogres of the Highlands and Amnoon? Nope. So how is the branded migrating cutting off something that it doesn't even interact with? Not to mention, there are events in the Desert Highlands regarding the Ogres going to Makali Outpost to trade and get supplies, so obviously isn't hasn't been cut off if its still going on. Likewise Makali Outpost, and Highjump Ranch are also not depicted as being cut off either. So the trade routes in question have to be further north.

You realize there's an entire zone's worth "north of the brandscar" before Ebonhawke, right? Even if the merchant's dialogue was about that area, there's quite a bit before reaching Ebonhawke. So even then, it does not confirm trade between Ebonhawke and Amnoon.You do realize that said path from the desert highlands is stated to go to Ebonhawke, with no stated settlements existing in between. If there was, that would make the idea that no ones been to "Elona"(more on that later) even less plausible since they would be even closer to Ebonhawke. If Ebonhawke wasn't the destination of that route, then the Elonian at the Closed Passage wouldn't mention it, she would mention whatever northern settlement the path did lead to instead.

I never said "no one's been to Elona since", I said that the nation was on political lockdown, meaning that there was no government sanctioned efforts to go into Elona. Even ignoring Edge of Destiny, in the sylvari Priory personal story we're told that the Durmand Priory had excavations to the Crystal Desert where they found Forgotten rituals (mind you, this seemingly got conveniently ignored for PoF, much like how the Priory's expeditions to Bloodstone Fen was).

Speaking of that conveniently ignored dialogue being retconned:Ogden Stonehealer: Just remember to share any important discoveries you make. Elona's been isolated for a long time.And, again Konig, Elona is a specific place that beings at the Joko Wall. The Crystal Desert is not Elona, period. they are two separate locations. You can have expeditions to the Crystal Desert, and still have Elona be cut off for a long time. Those two things do not contradict each other.

So you're arguing that people have been actively trading with Elona even during the past 240 years - which, btw, would predate Zhaitan's rise - yet not a single merchant would ever buy a map of the Crystal Desert.

Besides the fact that you clearly don't know what "lockdown" means, if Tyrians kept official trade with Amnoon until Zhaitan's rise, there would have been roughly 140 years for there to be trade between Kryta and AmnoonElona(not the desert) was put on lockdown when Joko took over is 1175. Amnoon wasn't founded, as the city that it is now, until some years later by Corsairs looking to establish a city for Elonians free of Joko's rule. We have no hard information onto when Amnoon, and the giant pyramids to the north(which were built for Amnoon's founder whose name was lost) were made. It very easily could have been after the rise of Zhaitan, meaning after Kryta and most other people cut off from the Desert, leaving only the route between Ebonhawke and the Desert Highlands intact. And, again, Ebonhawke was under Charr siege for over 200 years, I doubt any of them sent people deep into the desert to chart geographical changes, nor did they have any reason to buy maps. This also ignoring that we know the Order of Whispers was sending people in the desert, and Elona, meaning they would have known about what was going on there, not to mention the Priory expeditions. So obviously some people knew.

See Konig, the problem with your arguments is that you try to take everything every NPCs says 100% literally, despite the fact people don't talk in the literal, nor do game devs write NPC dialog in the literal. Its like in Star Trek they frequently make mention of the Federation not having a death penalty, when it actually does, but said death penalty only applies to going to one specific planet thats generally kept off the books so people don't go over there to begin with. Your aren't going to have people say "No we generally don't have a death penalty besides this one really obscure thing!" You are just going to have people say "No, we don't".

Please stop spreading lies. It's unbecoming of you.So says the man who has done nothing but lie this whole argument.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I'm curious, if you were to make a cut at where the in-game world map got expanded for PoF, and shifted Elona diagonally down, would it still be "scrunched up"? If not, then in-between Season 2 and PoF, they decided to shift Elona closer to Tyria.Yes.

When comparing two known points in Elona, the "keys" of Istan, and that unnamed isle to the east of what was the Barbarous Shore in Guild Wars 1, the amount of displacement between the in-game map, and the world map texture, is different between the two. Elona was not only moved closer to Tyria, but Elona itself was made slightly smaller compared to the world map texture from S2.

Using GIMP's measurement tool

• The Istani keys are abut 28 pixels displaced, while the island is 38 pixels displaced, on the in-game map from the S2 world texture
• The distance between the the centers of both on the in-game map is around 65 pixels
• The distance between the centers of both on the S2 world texture is closer to 82 pixels

Overall, there is around a 23% decrease in distance between the in-game map, and the S2 world texture.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:False conclusion. You're interpreting that the Dragonbrand is what cut off the trade routes, but that's not what the merchant is saying, it's talking about branded migration. In Fields of Ruins, there are various dialogue telling us that the Branded are migrating south towards Kralkatorrik - usually kept to the Dragonbrand, but sometimes leaving it and assaulting nearby settlements. This is the same occurrence being talked about the merchants - the migration of the branded, not the Dragonbrand's presence. In other words, it's talking about trade routes with the nomad and ogres of Desert Highlands.You do know where the branded migration happens right? Through the brandscar.Congratulations on not reading. The branded

leave the Dragonbrand

in their migration, as I denoted, especially when the Dragonbrand turns. And take a look north of Desert Highlands - the Dragonbrand curves. And true to form... the champion branded bounties in Highlands and Oasis have a random spawn chance to appear outside of the dragonbrand, and the ogre camp

gets attacked

despite being outside the Dragonbrand.

Since you're clearly not bothering to read my posts, something you ironically claim I do, this is pointless.

And, again Konig, Elona is a specific place that beings at the Joko Wall. The Crystal Desert is not Elona, period. they are two separate locations. You can have expeditions to the Crystal Desert, and still have Elona be cut off for a long time. Those two things do not contradict each other.The Crystal Desert actually is called to be part of the Elonian continent in various dialogue, actually. Just not part of the Elonian nation during GW1. The Desolation, btw, is part of the Crystal Desert, which you're calling to be in Elona.

Elona(not the desert) was put on lockdown when Joko took over is 1175. Amnoon wasn't founded, as the city that it is now, until some years later by Corsairs looking to establish a city for Elonians free of Joko's rule. We have no hard information onto when Amnoon, and the giant pyramids to the north(which were built for Amnoon's founder whose name was lost) were made. It very easily could have been after the rise of Zhaitan, meaning after Kryta and most other people cut off from the Desert, leaving only the route between Ebonhawke and the Desert Highlands intact.

And yet there was also 5 years time between the death of Zhaitan and Path of Fire. 4 years time between the Bazaar of the Four Winds which borders Amnoon and Path of Fire. Yet giant pyramids, that should be visible the routes to Labryinthine Cliffs before they began sinking due to Balthazar, is uncharted.

See Konig, the problem with your arguments is that you try to take everything every NPCs says 100% literally,The problem is that you dismiss half the dialogue just to infer about the ambiguity of the other half.

So says the man who has done nothing but lie this whole argument.I haven't lied once, thank you very much. Just because I interpret dialogue differently than you doesn't mean I'm lying. I haven't called you a liar about that, so I do expect enough respect to not have false accusations thrown at me.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:When comparing two known points in Elona, the "keys" of Istan, and that unnamed isle to the east of what was the Barbarous Shore in Guild Wars 1, the amount of displacement between the in-game map, and the world map texture, is different between the two. Elona was not only moved closer to Tyria, but Elona itself was made slightly smaller compared to the world map texture from S2.

Using kitten's measurement tool

• The Istani keys are abut 28 pixels displaced, while the island is 38 pixels displaced, on the in-game map from the S2 world texture
• The distance between the the centers of both on the in-game map is around 65 pixels
• The distance between the centers of both on the S2 world texture is closer to 82 pixels

Overall, there is around a 23% decrease in distance between the in-game map, and the S2 world texture.

Not too surprising then, given that they decided to un-flood the Desolation's rather large inland sea.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Not too surprising then, given that they decided to un-flood the Desolation's rather large inland sea.The in-game map is generally more accurate to the layout/placement of locations from GW1. The S2 world map texture was too large by comparison. It has less to do with the unflooding, and more that the S2 map was just not right size wise to begin with. at least the Elona part of it.

They also seem to have deleted the giant inland sea from the S2 world map that should be just east of Ascalon, across the Blazeridge mountains. Though there is a faint outline of where it should be on the in-game map, even though it depicts it as land.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Not too surprising then, given that they decided to un-flood the Desolation's rather large inland sea.The in-game map is generally more accurate to the layout/placement of locations from GW1. The S2 world map texture was too large by comparison. It has less to do with the unflooding, and more that the S2 map was just not right size wise to begin with. at least the Elona part of it.I wouldn't go that far. We never had an official proper correlation of Tyria to Elona (we just had the map sizes which weren't 100% guaranteed to be scaled the same given how scaling works in the GW games - though GW1 was

infinitely

better at it than GW2 is). There were fan-made maps that connected the two, but that was the extent of it.

The PoF layout actually creates a massive disparity with the Lonely Vigil - in GW1, it was visible from Crystal Overlook, making Crystal Overlook due south of The Arid Sea, but Crystal Overlook is well [south]west of Elon Riverlands in GW2 while "The Arid Sea" is in the eastern portion of Elon Riverlands.

Of course, lining the Lonely Vigil up creates an "oddity" in the coast where it has to suddenly go more-or-less horizontal for a bit. Unless we assume the distance is far greater than attended.

And before a "maybe that statue wasn't the Lonely Vigil" commentary, since it's been done before:

It was said the Lonely Vigil once towered over the Arid Sea, now the Arid Gladefields. So tall and visible, it could be seen from the edge of the Crystal Overlook in the Desolation of Elona.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Inquisitive_DjinnPlus the name and quoted description on GWW originally came from Nightfall gw.dat entries for the Crystal Oasis statue.

They also seem to have deleted the giant inland sea from the S2 world map that should be just east of Ascalon, across the Blazeridge mountains. Though there is a faint outline of where it should be on the in-game map, even though it depicts it as land.I wouldn't count it as altered just yet given that it's technically not in-game, just in the gw.dat. There's a distinct lack of details, other than the weird blue spot, and weird white streak. I feel confident that ANet just did randomness there and wasn't comparing to the S2 map.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I wouldn't go that far. We never had an official proper correlation of Tyria to Elona (we just had the map sizes which weren't 100% guaranteed to be scaled the same given how scaling works in the GW games - though GW1 was infinitely better at it than GW2 is). There were fan-made maps that connected the two, but that was the extent of it.I wasn't talking about Elona's placement compared to Tyria, I was speaking of Elona's size itself. Elona, just, Elona, even if you cut it off from Tyria, was to big,on the S2 world map.

The PoF layout actually creates a massive disparity with the Lonely Vigil - in GW1, it was visible from Crystal Overlook, making Crystal Overlook due south of The Arid Sea, but Crystal Overlook is well [south]west of Elon Riverlands in GW2 while "The Arid Sea" is in the eastern portion of Elon Riverlands.As I recall, extrapolations from the GW1 map put it northeast of Crystal Overlook, like it is in Gw2. But, the Lonely vigil was always something of a bad item to use, given that it was a mirage, and thus, not actually standing at any point in the games. We shouldn't have been able to see it from Crystal Overlook in the first place.

I wouldn't count it as altered just yet given that it's technically not in-game, just in the gw.dat. There's a distinct lack of details, other than the weird blue spot, and weird white streak. I feel confident that ANet just did randomness there and wasn't comparing to the S2 map.technically speaking, the lake should be visible from the in-game map. And not the full map texture including the parts we can't see, but the actual, visible, section of the map one can look at right now.

If it was visible, it would be right here

[EdwinLi.1284]

So this has come up in the new storyline but

 

it seems all Elder Dragons now have the ability to travel through the Mist. This is rather bad since that means even DSD can travel using the Mist which also makes it difficult to actually know his location within current lore. DSD can literally be in any body of water now, even in the Jade sea (most likely in a area that has already returned to water, if he has used the Mist to travel already.

 

[Tyson.5160]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:So this has come up in the new storyline but

 

it seems all Elder Dragons now have the ability to travel through the Mist. This is rather bad since that means even DSD can travel using the Mist which also makes it difficult to actually know his location within current lore. DSD can literally be in any body of water now, even in the Jade sea (most likely in a area that has already returned to water, if he has used the Mist to travel already.

 

Not a big surprise, since we learned that Drakkar became more powerful after Kralkatorrik’s death, which also would include Jormag, which would explain the new ability.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:So this has come up in the new storyline but

 

it seems all Elder Dragons now have the ability to travel through the Mist. This is rather bad since that means even DSD can travel using the Mist which also makes it difficult to actually know his location within current lore. DSD can literally be in any body of water now, even in the Jade sea (most likely in a area that has already returned to water, if he has used the Mist to travel already.

Jormag has always had the ability to open up mist portals, its being doing so since the vanilla game to transport Icebrood around. Kralk and Aurene only got the ability to do so after noming on Balthazar's magic, similarly to how Aurene got Joko's immortality magic after eating his magic.

I didn't see any indication that Primrodus, or Bubbles, can travel via the Mists.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:So this has come up in the new storyline but

 

it seems all Elder Dragons now have the ability to travel through the Mist. This is rather bad since that means even DSD can travel using the Mist which also makes it difficult to actually know his location within current lore. DSD can literally be in any body of water now, even in the Jade sea (most likely in a area that has already returned to water, if he has used the Mist to travel already.

Jormag has always had the ability to open up mist portals, its being doing so since the vanilla game to transport Icebrood around. Kralk and Aurene only got the ability to do so after noming on Balthazar's magic, similarly to how Aurene got Joko's immortality magic after eating his magic.

I didn't see any indication that Primrodus, or Bubbles, can travel via the Mists.

Perhaps an ability that Jormag acquired from the corrupted spirits, way back when?

[EdwinLi.1284]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:So this has come up in the new storyline but

 

it seems all Elder Dragons now have the ability to travel through the Mist. This is rather bad since that means even DSD can travel using the Mist which also makes it difficult to actually know his location within current lore. DSD can literally be in any body of water now, even in the Jade sea (most likely in a area that has already returned to water, if he has used the Mist to travel already.

Jormag has always had the ability to open up mist portals, its being doing so since the vanilla game to transport Icebrood around. Kralk and Aurene only got the ability to do so after noming on Balthazar's magic, similarly to how Aurene got Joko's immortality magic after eating his magic.

I didn't see any indication that Primrodus, or Bubbles, can travel via the Mists.

Previous attempts to use the Mist during Zhaitan Era was because Jormag used Shamans from the Norn and other race tribes in the Shiverpeaks he corrupted. He never had the power to create portals and travel into the mist himself originally.

Kralkatorrik's defeat is most likely the cause for Jormag to have direct control over creating portals and traveling through the mist without the need of Shamans now since some of Kralkatorrik's powers have been absorbed by the surviving Elder Dragons.

Don't forget with each Elder Dragon's defeated, the remaining Elder Dragons will obtain their powers which means each surviving Elder Dragon has the power to travel through the mist now as well.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@EdwinLi.1284 said:Don't forget with each Elder Dragon's defeated, the remaining Elder Dragons will obtain their powers which means each surviving Elder Dragon has the power to travel through the mist now as well.

Elder Dragons only get other dragon's power when there is o vessel around to take it, so the energy shoots off in all directions, and is naturally attracted to other elder dragons.

Aurene was present at Kralk's death, and took all of his powers. None of the other Elder Dragons should have any powers Kralk had since none of is energy went to them.

and ive seen mist portals open up for Jormag's forces in places where there are no shaman around to do it for Jormag, meaning, Jormag has had this power itself for awhile/

[PseudoNewb.5468]

1

Jormag also has control of Owl. Being one of the grater spirits, may allow it to open very large portals now.

 

[Tyson.5160]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:Don't forget with each Elder Dragon's defeated, the remaining Elder Dragons will obtain their powers which means each surviving Elder Dragon has the power to travel through the mist now as well.

Elder Dragons only get other dragon's power when there is o vessel around to take it, so the energy shoots off in all directions, and is naturally attracted to other elder dragons.

Aurene was present at Kralk's death, and took all of his powers. None of the other Elder Dragons should have any powers Kralk had since none of is energy went to them.

and ive seen mist portals open up for Jormag's forces in places where there are no shaman around to do it for Jormag, meaning, Jormag has had this power itself for awhile/

It seems that not all of the energy was absorbed by Aurene though, as stated in the book collection in Bjora. Here is the quote:

“Then Zhaitan was slain. Then Mordremoth. Then Kralkatorrik. With each Elder Dragon slain by the Pact Commander and their allies, the whispers seemed to grow louder. What was once a murmur on the wind soon became fully formed words. You heard the words, and the words knew you heard them. They would speak to you, tell you what you wanted to hear.“

So Drakkar was being boosted in power by the other dragons deaths and by extension Jormag.

Tom Abernathy also quotes this as well.

“Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.“

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@EdwinLi.1284 said:Don't forget with each Elder Dragon's defeated, the remaining Elder Dragons will obtain their powers which means each surviving Elder Dragon has the power to travel through the mist now as well.

Elder Dragons only get other dragon's power when there is o vessel around to take it, so the energy shoots off in all directions, and is naturally attracted to other elder dragons.

Aurene was present at Kralk's death, and took all of his powers. None of the other Elder Dragons should have any powers Kralk had since none of is energy went to them.

and ive seen mist portals open up for Jormag's forces in places where there are no shaman around to do it for Jormag, meaning, Jormag has had this power itself for awhile/

It's been confirmed that Jormag got a powerboost from Kralkatorrik's death via Drakkar's story. If Drakkar got a powerboost from Kralkatorrik's death, that means Jormag did.

Plus, we still have zero indication of what Aurene did with the magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar that Kralkatorrik consumed - she might have not taken it in when she ascended.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Tyson.5160 said:Tom Abernathy also quotes this as well.

“Balthazar’s divine energy—assuming you mean his magic—went into Aurene, Kralkatorrik, and, presumably, every other Elder Dragon on Tyria. And yeah, that probably matters enough that it will come up again at some point.“Well I guess thats that. Still seems odd to me.