Question about rotations?

[rng.1024]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:@rng.1024 I'd disagree about Forest of Niflhel objective being not worth going for as there are quite a few situations when a beast kill/steal can secure a win in a neck-to-neck match up.

Yeah but all the respawning player has to do to win this neck-to-neck matchup is to steal it - which you serve him on a silver platter. Or if you need more than 25 points his decap will ensure your team don't get more points.

You are talking about a hail mary. When you are on the losing side and the match is close to an end. Beast is your win-condition. In these situations I agree you have to play it risky, else you cannot win. The beasts, even though they are a dead rotation, can in fact be enough to tip the scales.

It's the same with Legacy, the enemy team can't be closer to 500 than a 3-cap would net them in the time it takes for you to kill the lord. Playing it completely safe only works if you are winning, the further behind you are the more risks you have to take to come back - this is a very valuable lesson, thanks for pointing it out! ^^

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@rng.1024

Really good analysis on all these questions especially question #2 in the thread. Every answer is spot on and it’s good to see something more...constructive on the forums as of recent.

Anyway the last question you posted (Quiz #5) seems like a pretty common scenario but it has me stumped a bit. But I’ll give it a shot:

All together we have 3 enemies that are are set to respawn, the one from home node (if he hasn’t respawned already) and the two from the mid fight. We the other two enemies bleeding out on node.

Right now we have 5 people in mid at the conclusion of that fight. My inclination is that the we can go and do a 3 point split because the enemy simply doesn’t have enough players match us anywhere on the map with the two enemies bleeding out on node...so our roamer can hit far for a decal or a full cap, our side noder can head home for defense, and me as a team fighter remain at mid to see where the respawns are heading.

Edit: btw for future questions can you put more scenarios that are more or less fail scenarios? Like instead of winning the team fight, how bout from the position of losing the team fight.

[rng.1024]

Solution:

Let's imagine we are the enemy team for a moment. They have 1 player at home, and 4 dead. A good team will regroup before moving out, because anywhere they go they will be outnumbered. The optimal play if they own home, is to make sure they keep it for some point gain. If they lose that going mid is just as good a play. Luckily for us we know their home is capped (since our duelist had time to cap our home and 1 enemy player is unaccounted for).

Back to your team. Even better, you still have 2 downed enemies at mid which can be bled (intentionally keeping them in downstate for as long as possible). You know the opposing team wants to come far now, so that's where you should go. The duelist from home can deal with the bodies on mid while keeping an eye on close, the rest of you move the teamfight to far and secure the decap against the 1 player and his 2 respawns.

You take away the enemy teams optimal play, and leave them with 3 mediocre ones. They are also staggered, meaning wherever they go you will outnumber. On top of that you now own the entire map instead of 2 points forcing your enemy to take big risks in order to stop bleeding points.

The support should always follow you, because you are the teamfight.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Like I mentioned in a previous post, if you win by a landslide the chances of your team messing up are fewer. Can you see how with this play you literally take the choice out of the other teams hand and leave them only sour options? If you had all stayed mid they could easily regroup or split and sweep the map while only being slightly behind in score. As a teamfighter you therefore have an extra responsibility of making your support not waste his time, and you are the one who should take lead and dictate his movement.

[rng.1024]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:@rng.1024

Really good analysis on all these questions especially question #2 in the thread. Every answer is spot on and it’s good to see something more...constructive on the forums as of recent.

Anyway the last question you posted (Quiz #5) seems like a pretty common scenario but it has me stumped a bit. But I’ll give it a shot:

All together we have 3 enemies that are are set to respawn, the one from home node (if he hasn’t respawned already) and the two from the mid fight. We the other two enemies bleeding out on node.

Right now we have 5 people in mid at the conclusion of that fight. My inclination is that the we can go and do a 3 point split because the enemy simply doesn’t have enough players match us anywhere on the map with the two enemies bleeding out on node...so our roamer can hit far for a decal or a full cap, our side noder can head home for defense, and me as a team fighter remain at mid to see where the respawns are heading.

Edit: btw for future questions can you put more scenarios that are more or less fail scenarios? Like instead of winning the team fight, how bout from the position of losing the team fight.

Thank you so much for the great feedback ! ^^

I think there is one extra kill you got on the other team there, but your analysis based on that is still flawless - it's definitely the optimal play!

Your reasoning for why to do a 3-point split is also really helpful, I haven't even managed to cover that topic yet :open_mouth:

So far I just thought I could do 100's of these so I don't really have a plan for how and when to cover different things. I can for sure do the next with from a losing position, thank you so much for giving it a go and coming with suggestions - it's exactly what this thread is for :blush:

[rng.1024]

Quiz #6!

Scenario:

• Your team consists of 4 duelists and 1 roamer (you)
• You are down 100-300 in score
• Your team simply can't win any teamfights

How do you turn this around?

Bonus question:Could you have seen this coming sooner?

[otto.5684]

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

So you are completely right :)

(Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

Ya. In losing games I want to be the one who takes the risk ?. I don’t want a G3 necro going far. Just stick it out mid. Maintain home and contest mid. open space so highly skilled players could carry or a well skilled thief or rev to quickly decap or +1 in a less crowded fights.

On the flip side, games with highly skilled players rarely have room for strategy. They are more likely to be determined based on class/build composition more than game player skill or strategy, sadly.

This is good insight! I get what you are saying about highly skilled games, however it just means the enemy can not only match your rotations but they can also outcomp you. This means it's less room for mistakes, so differences in player skill can easily affect the outcome. But yeah, comp matters way way more when both teams can rotate because of it's rock/paper/scissors nature ^^

This thread is fun! Actually, on the highest end of things I think there is more flexibility. AT in particular. Having 5 people with voice over can allow you To strategize, execute and improvise. You can even pick weird builds for a specific strategy and win. On the other hand, random (especially in unranked) can be insanely chaotic. You can have the highest ranked players matched with G2. The biggest upsets I have ever seen where in such games.

In these games carry becomes a possibility, even against highly skilled players. In fact, it becomes the strategy. Enemy necro is very good and has solid support build helping him. Tie them mid, and keep taking the other point. They rotate take mid. Go solo for and 2v1 Against the badies for 45-60 secs. Sometimes even win :o . In my opinion, the difference between gold 3 and platinum 2, is not usually about how many actions you can take every second, but how well can you read enemy movement even if you literally cannot see them.

1,500+ random games are stagnant. There is not room for any of that. Remember reading the map well and fast. Ya... everyone can do that. You ain’t going to surprise anyone. Hey, you did? Good lucking killing anyone in timely fashion. Example, I am core burn guardian. It is a C rated build, but I am a well skilled guardian. Top 10% maybe even 5%. Or was.I now mostly PvP on the forums :#. Sadly, it is more fun. Here comes a top holo, like top 3. We are fighting solo. If this top holo fightin a g2 players they will pop them in matter of secs. But I know very well what I am doing. I also know very well what they are doing.

I am running sage, sword/torch and mace/shield. I can chain protection uptime and reg uptime close to 100%. Between reg and VoR I can easily cross the 300 hp per sec, plus mediations plus LoW. Between dodges and aegis I can avoid at least 4-5 attacks in 10 secs. You get the point. This fight can easily drag easily into a minute long. And this is a fight that I am guaranteed to lose. If the holo allies are not up to par, cuz of bad match making or bad comp, I will hold for more than enough to make any possible effort the holo pulls pointless. Do not get me wrong if top 10 players face against p2 players they will win, but even that will drag. Ironically, this was an issue even before Feb patch. I think the game was become a bit slow, after several successive nerfs in 2019. Now.. it is just tankmania sPvP. I still don’t understand most the Feb changes. It seems pulled by a gold 2 player who got poorly matched in unranked few times.

Meh.. this turned to a rant in the end. I guess I am back to PvP on the forums :'(

[rng.1024]

@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@rng.1024 said:

@otto.5684 said:Of course, it varies. In random, normally sending 4 mid and 1 home is the best start. 1 going far is a gamble, which rarely works. If you have a decapper, they can go decap and go back mid or intercept someone going home. If you have 2 points, it is usually much better strategy to go hold these 2 points and send someone with high mobility to decap far and try to delay. I think people sometimes miss, that killing people is not necessary. It is ideal, most of the time, but do not get carried away in chasing.

Worst strategy is to assume you are better than the enemy team before combat even starts.

Indeed, the higher rated the games the less kills overall and the team with better rotations will win the game.

Deciding how many nodes to play is also very important, and something I plan to bring up in a future quiz ^^

The general advice of playing 2 nodes and sending a decapper far is also suboptimal yet quite effective against weaker teams. It is waaaay better than any the other alternatives though (1 node or 3 nodes coupled with bad rotations), which is why it has the reputation of a "safe" play.

My personal experience, unless you have co-ordinates team, it is easier for people to play it safe. Just stick to mid and home and try to decap far, if possible. It is also the best strategy to prevent snow bowling when losing. It will not win you games when out gunned, but guaranteed win if you have the upper hand. I dislike it when people who have no business going far, start to doing that. It splits our team's efforts and puts us at disadvantage while losing.

To emphasize, this is not a carry strategy. It is one that results in the least loses and the best play experience when losing, unless you are completely out gunned.

I agree, in regular ranked games this ensures your team don't put themselves at too much of an disadvantage. It takes a good team to counter this strategy, but that is the problem of playing it safe - you could win it 500-100 quick, but now you are looking at 500-300 which means alot more chances for your team to make mistakes since the game lasts longer.

50% of the time this risk is worth taking, sure. But if you want to win as many games as possible it will lose you a significant amount of your winnable games over time due to this strategy.

So you are completely right :)

(Just wanted to explain why it's not a carry for those that didn't know)

Ya. In losing games I want to be the one who takes the risk ?. I don’t want a G3 necro going far. Just stick it out mid. Maintain home and contest mid. open space so highly skilled players could carry or a well skilled thief or rev to quickly decap or +1 in a less crowded fights.

On the flip side, games with highly skilled players rarely have room for strategy. They are more likely to be determined based on class/build composition more than game player skill or strategy, sadly.

This is good insight! I get what you are saying about highly skilled games, however it just means the enemy can not only match your rotations but they can also outcomp you. This means it's less room for mistakes, so differences in player skill can easily affect the outcome. But yeah, comp matters way way more when both teams can rotate because of it's rock/paper/scissors nature ^^

This thread is fun! Actually, on the highest end of things I think there is more flexibility. AT in particular. Having 5 people with voice over can allow you To strategize, execute and improvise. You can even pick weird builds for a specific strategy and win. On the other hand, random (especially in unranked) can be insanely chaotic. You can have the highest ranked players matched with G2. The biggest upsets I have ever seen where in such games.

In these games carry becomes a possibility, even against highly skilled players. In fact, it becomes the strategy. Enemy necro is very good and has solid support build helping him. Tie them mid, and keep taking the other point. They rotate take mid. Go solo for and 2v1 Against the badies for 45-60 secs. Sometimes even win :o . In my opinion, the difference between gold 3 and platinum 2, is not usually about how many actions you can take every second, but how well can you read enemy movement even if you literally cannot see them.

1,500+ random games are stagnant. There is not room for any of that. Remember reading the map well and fast. Ya... everyone can do that. You ain’t going to surprise anyone. Hey, you did? Good lucking killing anyone in timely fashion. Example, I am core burn guardian. It is a C rated build, but I am a well skilled guardian. Top 10% maybe even 5%. Or was.I now mostly PvP on the forums :#. Sadly, it is more fun. Here comes a top holo, like top 3. We are fighting solo. If this top holo fightin a g2 players they will pop them in matter of secs. But I know very well what I am doing. I also know very well what they are doing.

I am running sage, sword/torch and mace/shield. I can chain protection uptime and reg uptime close to 100%. Between reg and VoR I can easily cross the 300 hp per sec, plus mediations plus LoW. Between dodges and aegis I can avoid at least 4-5 attacks in 10 secs. You get the point. This fight can easily drag easily into a minute long. And this is a fight that I am guaranteed to lose. If the holo allies are not up to par, cuz of bad match making or bad comp, I will hold for more than enough to make any possible effort the holo pulls pointless. Do not get me wrong if top 10 players face against p2 players they will win, but even that will drag. Ironically, this was an issue even before Feb patch. I think the game was become a bit slow, after several successive nerfs in 2019. Now.. it is just tankmania sPvP. I still don’t understand most the Feb changes. It seems pulled by a gold 2 player who got poorly matched in unranked few times.

Meh.. this turned to a rant in the end. I guess I am back to PvP on the forums :'(

I'm just glad you are keeping the thread alive, starting to feel I'm losing people :confounded: So I welcome you with open arms!

I get what you are saying about the highest end of things - the pace is just way higher and people don't just rely on cookie-cutter builds and rotations which makes it alot more challenging and fun imo.

Carry plays become harder the lower your teammates are rated, because they cannot recognize when you give them an opening and use it - I think this is a big factor why many good players get frustrated.

However people need to understand there is always 1 factor your team struggles with the most, so you might have to change up your carry tactic throughout the game to neutralize that. F.eks it doesn't matter if you are 1v4 at far if the enemy burn guard is having a field day at the other nodes killing your team left and right.

Your duel-example paints quite the picture! There so many things going on here, a showdown of skill, you preventing him rotating and how to setup a +1 which I think goes by many players ^^

Aye the feb patch was a little too general while some touches on the burst skills could have done the job - instead I feel it killed diversity and made toughness/vitality way more valuable to run which inevitably slows the pace down sadly :confounded:

[rng.1024]

Solution:

This is the point in games where most players give up and think it's unwinnable, don't be one of those players. Because I assure you you have the best possible chance at this point in the match to turn things around.

You can see on the enemy team composition (profession representation within a team) if they have a strong teamfight, simply by checking if they have both a teamfighter (Necro/Revenant) and a support (Firebrand/Tempest). If you don't have a duo of these to match, chances are you will be outsustained if you try to teamfight.

You can check this before the match even begins by pressing B to open up the Scoreboard.

Now here is why you can win this on rotations:

• Duelists builds have above average mobility (over time)
• Teamfighter and support builds only have average mobility (short bursts)

Let's set up a strategy now. Teamfighting is off the table, and the best position for their duo is to hold mid. In other words side nodes is the play here.

• You start by all going to claim your home node if you don't own it already.
• If the teamfight-duo stays at mid, you push for far next leaving 1 player behind.
• If they come to close you as a thief can easily decap mid - which is going to be your job from now on.

It's important to note playing sides doesn't refer to home or far, it refers to "whichever node the teamfight duo isn't on". They are slower than you and have to stick together, so if you see them coming to your node you move to the next making them waste not only 1, but 2 rotations since they are now stuck there to cap to make up for a dead rotation.

What you are doing here is called outrotating (where your rotation is way more valuable than the enemies) your enemy, and they are doing an over-rotation (lowest value rotation). The moment they leave mid you force them to play 3 nodes with essentially 3 players since the teamfight duo is always arriving late, giving you a dream scenario as a roamer to always outnumber and always have a 3rd point to decap.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Take a look at what you're doing here(!). You are essentially denying 2/5 players to play the game, because the 1 node they can hold together is not enough to win. You are using your teams strength to hard counter theirs, and it's possible in conquest solely because there are 3 nodes to play for which is what allows for hard logic to dictate which action nets you most reward.

Your team needs to understand what is happening and not feed (running into an already lost fight and dying) into mid, so often it requires either some experience or communication. Luckily it's easier to do the higher rated games you get.

But you should always be the one to push first, this way your teammates will follow most of the time. Take initiative and take responsibility for your wins, this is how you win matches like these.

[rng.1024]

Quiz #7!

Scenario:

• You just had a full team wipe
• It was the first mid fight
• Your duelist (side noder) decides to afk

How do you deal with this?

Bonus question:Why are top stats unreliable when it comes to measuring your match impact?

[rng.1024]

Solution:

This means the opposing team will either match or outnumber you on any given node. In order to avoid this you have to play only 2 nodes.

Another thing you need to know, is how the distance between home-far can be used to your advantage. In order to force a rotation of the enemy team, you need to send 2 players far. These players will have to carry (take an unfair amount of responsibility) by not going down and kiting (using mobility and line of sight to survive while outnumbered) on that side of the map.

The rest of you must go close.

• Why close? Because you are creating distance, spreading the enemy to both extremes of the map which at this point is 100% necessary.

The other team now has a choice to make (to outnumber you):

• Send 3 players to their home
• Send 4 players to their far

No matter what they choose they will lose one of the nodes because you outnumber there. Once that happens and the kill is confirmed, you need to act quick. Let's say the opponent chose to send 3 people close. With only 2 people they can't risk pushing the rest (3 of you) on your close and you get that for free. Now you can all push to mid.

If your teammates on far have done well they will still live. A 3v2 is about to happen at mid so the 3 players who went far in response now need to make another decision;

• Stay here to try and get a kill
• Go mid to outnumber

Either way you will come out of this with 2 nodes!

Once you have those it's necessary you snowball to the last node.

• Why? Because if you force that decap then the other team can't just zerg to mid. If they still do, which is a suboptimal rotation now, you can simply trade it for sides - which allows you to repeat this process from the start.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

It will not be enough against a good team, but by doing this you can slow down their score-gain drastically until the afk see you are still doing great or if you have an unfortunate dc on your team - all it takes is 1 mistake by the enemy team and you can lock down 2 nodes by staggering, bleeding and outrotating whenever you can for the comeback victory. Never give up until the timer runs out!

Notice how in this scenario you need to think 2 steps ahead at all times, use the map structure and double guard yourself with situations that will benefit you either way ensuring the enemy has to face an ultimatum every time - your rotations are therefore incredibly important when at such a disadvantage.

Top stats compares you to everyone else in the match, it does not tell you how crucial you were to winning since conquest is a game of score - not stats. Doesn't matter how much you try to cap a node if you never get it since only having it gives points.

(Can you deduct what would happen if the enemy team chose to send 4 players to their far instead? ;) )

[rng.1024]

For those who wonder, there are a few assumptions you have to make when deciding optimal rotations. The most important being:

• Outnumbering a fight means a win (node capped).
• Outnumbering with more than 1 player is an over-rotation.
• The enemy team follow the same rules as you do

If they don't you will always outrotate them by following this method because you play optimally and they don't resulting in them lagging behind having to react to what you do.

Notice how this doesn't take player skill into account.

[rng.1024]

I think my time in the sun has come to an end my friends :'(

I will be traveling soon so my forum presence would fade regardless, so might aswell let these scenarios sink in - for now.

There could be many reasons these topics don't gain much traction on the forum, and some of these I believe are:

• It requires you to be humble. If you already feel you are a god of pvp, of course you won't give threads like these the time of day.
• Not knowing my merits and ranking. I intentionally left these out to let the logic of rotations speak for itself, also so you guys can see how they are self-evident or "obvious" for better players chiming in. If I wasn't anonymous things might have turned out different.
• I also believe my method of taking the role of "asura genius" might have annoyed quite a few, because they feel they know better and I come off as obnoxious. It's hard however to take the role of teaching if people don't think you are fit to teach, so in some form it's necessary.
• Maybe some are playing the game to improve instead, which is AWESOME! :blush:
• The thread grew above my wildest expectations! Next time I need to come with a simpler format that allows more ease of navigation and gathering of replies. Right now it's f.ex not easy to find which solution fits which scenario causing some to not bother participating I am sure.

Atleast I hope you learned a thing or two about the importance of rotations, how to handle common scenarios and maybe think a little about your own plays - best of all if it inspired you to play a few games :blush:

To all who participated and gave feedback - thank you so much, really made my week :heart:

As always, if you have any questions you can always post in this thread and I will help you as best I can as soon as I can. Have a great summer everyone ^^

[kin korn karn.9023]

Hi rng, I just read through this thread from the start. I found it pretty interesting and fun (even if a bit obnoxious), and I hope you do another in the future.

My main takeaway is realizing that I don't always assume the enemy will make the best rotations. Of course they often probably won't (probably especially on NA), but preparing for their strongest move is better than preparing for a weaker one.

Bon voyage.

[rng.1024]

@"kin korn karn.9023" said:Hi rng, I just read through this thread from the start. I found it pretty interesting and fun (even if a bit obnoxious), and I hope you do another in the future.

My main takeaway is realizing that I don't always assume the enemy will make the best rotations. Of course they often probably won't (probably especially on NA), but preparing for their strongest move is better than preparing for a weaker one.

Bon voyage.

I'm glad you found it of some use, reading through all that require some dedication :astonished:

I quite enjoyed these, so if you have any ideas for how to make it less obnoxious next time please share. My plan pretty much is to start streaming while I explain things so you can see hands on what it's like, and maybe make a more thorough "guide" (what ifs leading to what ifs and stop when you are in a winning position) down the road should people be interested.

You are absolutely right that most games teams will rotate under par, which is a shame. But on the other hand it gives low ranked players more chances to climb because of enemy mistakes. For new players especially, who play it like deathmatch and can't understand why they keep losing. Also gold players who do well on their profession but can't seem to stay in plat long. But most off all show people how much they can actually carry - that it's not about 1v2 at far, get the most resses and having a good team - something I feel alot of players never realise even being veterans of the mode.

Thanks alot for the kind words and feedback :)