[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

Obviously it wanted to use us against Primordus. Through the shards achievement we knew that they had a huge clash and since they were each other's weakness. That's why it didn't kill us and try to seduce us.

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  • The shards achievement references the work of Taimi's machine, right?

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah it's just about the machine, the dragons have not shown any interest in attacking each-other ever.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 30, 2020

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Yeah it's just about the machine, the dragons have not shown any interest in attacking each-other ever.

    The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

    it's also the first direct confirmation of Jormag's presence in Central Tyria area in the previous dragonrise - the only evidence before was just the dwarves' knowledge of it, since Jormag woke up far north of Central Tyria.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

    "Long ago, Primordus struck Jormag in battle and littered the Drizzlewood Coast in shards."

    I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.
    However, Jormag has started to talk to us and seeks cooperation with mortals - Primordus just stands for total destruction. But what did Jormag say?

    "You do not fear death. You fear something far worse. You fear outliving the ones you swore to protect."

    It's strange that an elder dragon develops empathy towards such tiny races... or is Jormag talking about it's own fears?

    "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame."

    Chill of the frost or warmth of the flame is also a strange analogy if we are still talking about tiny races, but understandable for Ice or Fire dragons...

    "It is this fear that is your enemy, not I. The prison in which all races of Tyria suffer."

    All races... does this include Elder Dragons? Kralkatorrik could only speak for himself when he said "Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon. Not even death.", but at least he and Joramag are aware of beeing mortal, too. Are they aware that there is an End to all Dragons, a cycle, that has to be reborn? What happens to Jormag and Primordus, when we set sail to Cantha? Are they still there, slumbering, or are they going to be replaced? With whom?

    What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else. An Elder Dragon that asks for cooperation to double it's chances of success but also makes a clear statement to not stand in it's way:
    "But you need not fear me, champion, for I can set you free. Join me, and you shall have the strength to protect your people in the trials to come. Stand against me, and you stand alone."

  • The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

    I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.

    My thought is because Jormag is Primordus' weakness, and when there were still six Elder Dragons killing one wouldn't endanger the world, but I imagine that when we get further along Bangar's talks, we'll find out more about it (assuming Primordus is indeed "Jormag's enemy" which would be... sadly disappointing in all honesty).

    All races... does this include Elder Dragons?

    Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

    What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else.

    This would be a neat twist to the "Jormag's secret" conversation coming up in several weeks.

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  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

    Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

    Yes, the speech itself was directed at Bangar (it was mentioned in a Dev talk or something else) - however, the thoughts were Jormags'. It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it. Basically a kind of propaganda where others tell you what your biggest problem is.

  • @Rhywolver.8250 said:
    It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it.

    Ehhh, I wouldn't call it Jormag's point of view of the world. Jormag is the dragon of persuasion - even if it only tells truths, it will always tell truths and points of view that benefit converting the receiver. There is no guarantee that Jormag believes its own words, nor any reason why such would be so. Nor would I consider it Jormag's fear - nothing in that speech really sounds like Jormag is fearful of something. Even Jormag's speech to the Commander via the Fraenir about the threat on the horizon doesn't sound fearful.

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  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Obviously it wanted to use us against Primordus. Through the shards achievement we knew that they had a huge clash and since they were each other's weakness. That's why it didn't kill us and try to seduce us.

    It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

    I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey through
    Tyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

    And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

    I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

    No I definitely get it, and I'm not against it. I'm just wondering if the same weakness would apply should one of them fall and the other dragons take on their domains. If this is a domain thing and not some inner-workings of the All that we'll never really understand. There may be something deeper given that the All needs at least 4 dragons alive before kitten hits the fan. I'm assuming they must be on opposing sides instead of 3 on 1 and 1 on the other. So the domains probably get shifted to balance it out.

    I'd also assume that killing Primordus right now would be pretty detrimental in that case, as it seems like it would just empower the DSD (who presumably already counters Aurene naturally) and potentially empower it above the levels of Aurene and Jormag. I would have to assume that either Primordus or DSD would have to be the next to be replaced and that killing Jormag simply isn't an option right now, as whatever potential replacement we find in Cantha may not balance things out if it's replacing Jormag.

    We're in a weird spot right now because we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth who countered each other, and Aurene immediately assumed Kralk's role so we don't really know the rules about what would happen if we killed another one besides it needing at least 4 to remain balanced.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 8, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

    It's entirely possible Jormag didn't make a move against Primordus yet because Primordus woke up 50 years earlier, so it would have a major head start on obtaining power and forces. Primordus also consumed six asuran underground cities all on par to Rata Sum, while Jormag merely got a few norn shrines, and was even injured shortly after waking. Jormag would probably be on the lower end, meanwhile Primordus had been slowly hampered and prevented from surfacing by the stone dwarves until the past couple decades, so may want to stock up on more power before making another move on Jormag.

    @Bast.7253 said:
    And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

    Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

    Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

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