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When do you think warrior will be considered one of the meta pick


felix.2386

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@"Tycura.1982" said:Maybe after the xpac but until then I have zero confidence in their ability to recognize problems and deal with them competently. Expect meaningless buffs in the meantime.

CMC already said in a stream with Teapot and Angeels, when asked "is there a build in PvP that you consider to be the power level that you'd like to see across the entire game?" and he said that "warrior isn't necessarily the gold standard but it feels pretty good." Which means, if anything, other classes need to be nerfed and Warrior really only needs adjustments (Buffs or Nerfs) and possible QoL type stuff that provide more options as opposed the limited amount they have now. He also said that there are still things that could be brought down/nerfed on Warrior that still make sense. Which I agree with because it is not a perfect class and there are still things on it that overperform, its just that other things on other classes overperform so much more that they just overshadow everything else.

I would clip/highlight the actual segment from the stream but the Twitch site is being very obnoxious with that right now for me. However I can tell you that the question is asked at about the 2:40:40 mark in the stream if you want to see it for yourselves.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:Maybe after the xpac but until then I have zero confidence in their ability to recognize problems and deal with them competently. Expect meaningless buffs in the meantime.

CMC already said in a stream with Teapot and Angeels, when asked "is there a build in PvP that you consider to be the power level that you'd like to see across the entire game?" and he said that "warrior isn't necessarily the gold standard but it feels pretty good." Which means, if anything, other classes need to be nerfed and Warrior really only needs adjustments (Buffs or Nerfs)

We know that, warrior has been "feeling good" since 2012, warrior has never been underpowered, but either overpowered (quickly nerfed) or standard (underpowered but not buffing just nerfing everybody else)

and we also know that, because they have been nerfing everything FOR 5 MONTHS already yet warrior is still trash..

that's the point of the thread tbh, how long it takes for anet to nerf everything to warrior level standard, so that warrior can finally has a play with 5 months already passed.remember that FB still trashes warrior, yet this isnt even FB's meta yet..there's still many meta to come before finally reaching so called "warrior's standard"

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@felix.2386 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:Maybe after the xpac but until then I have zero confidence in their ability to recognize problems and deal with them competently. Expect meaningless buffs in the meantime.

CMC already said in a stream with Teapot and Angeels, when asked "is there a build in PvP that you consider to be the power level that you'd like to see across the entire game?" and he said that "warrior isn't necessarily the gold standard but it feels pretty good." Which means, if anything, other classes need to be nerfed and Warrior really only needs adjustments (Buffs or Nerfs)

We know that, warrior has been "feeling good" since 2012, warrior has never been underpowered, but either overpowered (quickly nerfed) or standard (underpowered but not buffing just nerfing everybody else)

and we also know that, because they have been nerfing everything FOR 5 MONTHS already yet warrior is still trash..

that's the point of the thread tbh, how long it takes for anet to nerf everything to warrior level standard, so that warrior can finally has a play with 5 months already passed.remember that FB still trashes warrior, yet this isnt even FB's meta yet..there's still many meta to come before finally reaching so called "warrior's standard"

I understand the frustration, I'm right there with you, Warrior might "feel good" for the moment but that gets overrided by the overtuned things still going on right now with classes like FB and Holo and otherwise. I've said it before in other threads, its an issue of boon accessibility. Those classes, by comparison, projectile vomit boons onto themselves, and often others, and that is practically the entire reason why they are where they are. Warrior does not have that, neither do some other classes/specs, and because of that it gets pushed out. Boons need to be viewed as the issue on these classes and they need to look at it from the perspective of bringing that boon accessibility down.

Now I am all for criticizing ANet for the slow cadence, and the patches not really having much of an impact in terms of balance, the thing is that any sort of change or rework to skills or traits needs to be forwarded to the skills team and unfortunately PvE is taken heavily into consideration for any of those kinds of changes. So for the most part its not entirely in CMCs hands, which is precisely why the passive traits haven't been reworked yet.

This stuff is why they need to have those on the PvP balance team and the skills team, even the content teams, do a weekly devstream and have these kinds of Q&A/State of the Game type discussions. I highly doubt that they don't have something to talk about on a weekly basis, or at least an update to something. If weekly is too much bi-weekly at minimum.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:Maybe after the xpac but until then I have zero confidence in their ability to recognize problems and deal with them competently. Expect meaningless buffs in the meantime.

CMC already said in a stream with Teapot and Angeels, when asked "is there a build in PvP that you consider to be the power level that you'd like to see across the entire game?" and he said that "warrior isn't necessarily the gold standard but it feels pretty good." Which means, if anything, other classes need to be nerfed and Warrior really only needs adjustments (Buffs or Nerfs)

We know that, warrior has been "feeling good" since 2012, warrior has never been underpowered, but either overpowered (quickly nerfed) or standard (underpowered but not buffing just nerfing everybody else)

and we also know that, because they have been nerfing everything FOR 5 MONTHS already yet warrior is still trash..

that's the point of the thread tbh, how long it takes for anet to nerf everything to warrior level standard, so that warrior can finally has a play with 5 months already passed.remember that FB still trashes warrior, yet this isnt even FB's meta yet..there's still many meta to come before finally reaching so called "warrior's standard"

I understand the frustration, I'm right there with you, Warrior might "feel good" for the moment but that gets overrided by the overtuned things still going on right now with classes like FB and Holo and otherwise. I've said it before in other threads, its an issue of boon accessibility. Those classes, by comparison,
projectile vomit
boons onto themselves, and often others, and that is practically the entire reason why they are where they are. Warrior does not have that, neither do some other classes/specs, and because of that it gets pushed out. Boons need to be viewed as
the
issue on these classes and they need to look at it from the perspective of bringing that boon accessibility down.

Now I am
all
for criticizing ANet for the slow cadence, and the patches not really having much of an impact in terms of balance, the thing is that any sort of change or rework to skills or traits needs to be forwarded to the skills team and
unfortunately
PvE is taken heavily into consideration for any of those kinds of changes. So for the most part its not entirely in CMCs hands, which is precisely why the passive traits haven't been reworked yet.

This stuff is why they need to have those on the PvP balance team and the skills team, even the content teams, do a
weekly
devstream and have these kinds of Q&A/State of the Game type discussions. I
highly
doubt that they don't have
something
to talk about on a weekly basis, or at least an update to something. If weekly is too much
bi-weekly
at minimum.

You know, the reason guardian has aegis+protection is because it doesn't have 19k base health and endure-pain, shield block, evades, etc etc right? You can't complain that a class that is specifically designed to be statistically weak, but instead relies on boons...... relies on boons. Similarly Ele and Engi are designed with boons in mind.

The current issue with guardian/FB is symbols. Nobody likes them, either those playing with them or against them, and fortunately CMC appears to be aware of this issue. Guardian boon generation is actually pretty average compared to the likes of holo/scrapper, ranger/soulbeast, rev/herald. Go and see which one can maintain higher uptimes on protection, stability, vigor, or generate higher stacks of might. I dare you. Boons got hit very very hard in february, they really aren't the issue anymore. FB elite mantra provides 1s stability.... on 45s cooldown. Wauw such boon-vomit.

As for warrior, it really would only take another shave to holo, a symbol rework, and a shave to rev evade/block-chaining, and it would be perfectly viable. I can totally see condi-zerker coming back and being a thing, especially now mallyx got trimmed.

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@Ragnar.4257 said:

@"Tycura.1982" said:Maybe after the xpac but until then I have zero confidence in their ability to recognize problems and deal with them competently. Expect meaningless buffs in the meantime.

CMC already said in a stream with Teapot and Angeels, when asked "is there a build in PvP that you consider to be the power level that you'd like to see across the entire game?" and he said that "warrior isn't necessarily the gold standard but it feels pretty good." Which means, if anything, other classes need to be nerfed and Warrior really only needs adjustments (Buffs or Nerfs)

We know that, warrior has been "feeling good" since 2012, warrior has never been underpowered, but either overpowered (quickly nerfed) or standard (underpowered but not buffing just nerfing everybody else)

and we also know that, because they have been nerfing everything FOR 5 MONTHS already yet warrior is still trash..

that's the point of the thread tbh, how long it takes for anet to nerf everything to warrior level standard, so that warrior can finally has a play with 5 months already passed.remember that FB still trashes warrior, yet this isnt even FB's meta yet..there's still many meta to come before finally reaching so called "warrior's standard"

I understand the frustration, I'm right there with you, Warrior might "feel good" for the moment but that gets overrided by the overtuned things still going on right now with classes like FB and Holo and otherwise. I've said it before in other threads, its an issue of boon accessibility. Those classes, by comparison,
projectile vomit
boons onto themselves, and often others, and that is practically the entire reason why they are where they are. Warrior does not have that, neither do some other classes/specs, and because of that it gets pushed out. Boons need to be viewed as
the
issue on these classes and they need to look at it from the perspective of bringing that boon accessibility down.

Now I am
all
for criticizing ANet for the slow cadence, and the patches not really having much of an impact in terms of balance, the thing is that any sort of change or rework to skills or traits needs to be forwarded to the skills team and
unfortunately
PvE is taken heavily into consideration for any of those kinds of changes. So for the most part its not entirely in CMCs hands, which is precisely why the passive traits haven't been reworked yet.

This stuff is why they need to have those on the PvP balance team and the skills team, even the content teams, do a
weekly
devstream and have these kinds of Q&A/State of the Game type discussions. I
highly
doubt that they don't have
something
to talk about on a weekly basis, or at least an update to something. If weekly is too much
bi-weekly
at minimum.

You know, the reason guardian has aegis+protection is because it doesn't have 19k base health and endure-pain, shield block, evades, etc etc right? You can't complain that a class that is specifically designed to be statistically weak, but instead relies on boons...... relies on boons. Similarly Ele and Engi are designed with boons in mind.

The current issue with guardian/FB is symbols. Nobody likes them, either those playing with them or against them, and fortunately CMC appears to be aware of this issue. Guardian boon generation is actually pretty average compared to the likes of holo/scrapper, ranger/soulbeast, rev/herald. Go and see which one can maintain higher uptimes on protection, stability, vigor, or generate higher stacks of might. I dare you. Boons got hit very very hard in february, they really aren't the issue anymore. FB elite mantra provides 1s stability.... on 45s cooldown. Wauw such boon-vomit.

As for warrior, it really would only take another shave to holo, a symbol rework, and a shave to rev evade/block-chaining, and it would be perfectly viable. I can totally see condi-zerker coming back and being a thing, especially now mallyx got trimmed.

Yes, I'm well aware of why Guardian has Aegis and Protection. Core Guardian is probably fine, probably only needing a bit more trimming but nothing too severe. Firebrand is what that particular comment was referencing; hence "classes like FB and Holo and otherwise" nowhere was Core Guardian, or Dragonhunter, referenced as being overbearing with boons. Specifically Firebrand is more oppressive with it, even with the nerf to its Mantra elite that same skill still gives 5 stacks of Stability for 4 1/4 sec on its second charge not counting running Stand Your Ground as well. So yes it has been trimmed down but not so much that it isn't still so much more oppressive against everything else, its just "less so" than Holo/Scrapper, Ranger/Soulbeast, Revenant/Herald.

This isn't an attack on FB, its an acknowledgement that while there have been steps taken to lessen how oppressive it is there is still more that can be done but not just to that one particular class. All of the overperforming and highly oppressive classes right now all have almost the same thing in common,you even highlighted it in your own post by naming those classes, that practically shoves everything else out of the way; Boons.

How do you think the power creep got so bad over time? Sure traits and skills are contributors, but the one constant that ANet has put into their Elite Spec design starting from HoT all the way into PoF and beyond is more and more access to more boons. Thats why Spellbreaker was so overtuned, its Might generation was obscene and it could generate a heavy flow of it from Magebane Tether and other traits/skills. Soulbeast has/had so much sustain because of its access, and length of, 10+ stacks of Stability that it could just drop on itself paired with access to Regeneration and Protection as well. Why do you think Herald became a staple of team comps in either sPvP or WvW? The constant and persistent flow of boons that it provided, and still does to this day. Those are just a few examples, there are more.

I'm not saying all boons should be stripped away from any one class, but how accessible they are should be something that is looked at and addressed more. Even Warrior and Spellbreaker can still generate a silly amount of Might in a relatively short amount of time, its why Berserker doesn't measure up to either of those specs in PvP; because it does not have anywhere near the same kind of boon generation and purely exists to exploit its "one trick pony" nature with Arc Divider and Gunflame. Its to the point that Berserker is used in zergs in WvW because boon sharing allows them to have access to those same amounts of Might, and other boons. sPvP does not provide those same benefits, at least not to the same capacity.

I apologize for the length of the post, but I wanted to try and explain properly and I'm not terribly good at keeping my thoughts concise.

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why is warrior allowed to be completely trash and unplayable for half of a year now just because it "feels good"?like we understand that "no one is perfect" "some balance changes may be wrong"

but simply keeping warrior in this unplayable state in pvp willingly for half of a year and more just because it "feels good"this mentality shouldnt be allowed

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@Shao.7236 said:Warrior will find it's spot the moment people start exploring their options rather than stick with the same old.

it is funny how you think players haven't tried different buildslet me tell you the numbers of builds i tried on warrior since feb 25th greatly surpass all revenant builds that ever existed all together since HoT release.but it's ok, keep going with your superiority complex.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:I've heard rumors that spellbreaker is what CmC is trying to balance the game around. I actually agree 100%

of course, spellbreaker is the only thing that's remotely close to playable for warrior and that's just playable, not one of the tournament picks.everything else are far far away from being competitive in plat+, berserker is just completely meme cancer garbage in terms class mechanics for pvp.

@Xca.9721 said:It has been meta since PoF launch, i think you can handle a couple months of not being broken.

i don't think you ever paid any attention to actual pvp meta that's not gold since PoF but it's ok

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The real question is when will Berserker will be viable, after the pre PoF nerfs it was never able to be even remotely considered Meta,or even reach B tier build levels.Wish it had a place different from spellbreaker so it has its niche that doesn't overlap the side node.Also why is warrior locked on discipline on all builds in all modes, like warrior can't function without it, that is why warrior is stuck in one play style for like forever, you only get to pick 2 traitlines warrior ends up playing the same because of discipline. Also it is not like the traitline is op or anything it just gives really basic simple stuff that help warrior function and the other traitlines lack those.

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@felix.2386 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Warrior will find it's spot the moment people start exploring their options rather than stick with the same old.

it is funny how you think players haven't tried different buildslet me tell you the numbers of builds i tried on warrior since feb 25th greatly surpass all revenant builds that ever existed all together since HoT release.but it's ok, keep going with your superiority complex.

Anything that's not Jalis on Revenant gets destroyed by Core Warrior. Even Herald Power or Condition, they are sitting ducks for Warrior. It's statistically done by class design. You speak like Shiro was never nerfed, you aren't keeping up with the available options at all.

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