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[Spoiler] Jormag's true intention


Slowpokeking.8720

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@Eekasqueak.7850 said:Yeah it's just about the machine, the dragons have not shown any interest in attacking each-other ever.

The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

it's also the first direct confirmation of Jormag's presence in Central Tyria area in the previous dragonrise - the only evidence before was just the dwarves' knowledge of it, since Jormag woke up far north of Central Tyria.

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  • 1 month later...

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The achievement text to hunt down the Shards of Jormag indicates that they're scales from when they fought Primordus during the previous dragonrise in the Drizzlewood Coast area. So we now have direct evidence showing that the Elder Dragons are willing to fight each other... even if rarely.

"Long ago, Primordus struck Jormag in battle and littered the Drizzlewood Coast in shards."

I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.However, Jormag has started to talk to us and seeks cooperation with mortals - Primordus just stands for total destruction. But what did Jormag say?

"You do not fear death. You fear something far worse. You fear outliving the ones you swore to protect."

It's strange that an elder dragon develops empathy towards such tiny races... or is Jormag talking about it's own fears?

"You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame."

Chill of the frost or warmth of the flame is also a strange analogy if we are still talking about tiny races, but understandable for Ice or Fire dragons...

"It is this fear that is your enemy, not I. The prison in which all races of Tyria suffer."

All races... does this include Elder Dragons? Kralkatorrik could only speak for himself when he said "Nothing terrifies an Elder Dragon. Not even death.", but at least he and Joramag are aware of beeing mortal, too. Are they aware that there is an End to all Dragons, a cycle, that has to be reborn? What happens to Jormag and Primordus, when we set sail to Cantha? Are they still there, slumbering, or are they going to be replaced? With whom?

What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else. An Elder Dragon that asks for cooperation to double it's chances of success but also makes a clear statement to not stand in it's way:"But you need not fear me, champion, for I can set you free. Join me, and you shall have the strength to protect your people in the trials to come. Stand against me, and you stand alone."

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@"Rhywolver.8250" said:The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

I'm curious why Primordus attacked Jormag and what they fought for. Everything we know is that both Dragons survived.My thought is because Jormag is Primordus' weakness, and when there were still six Elder Dragons killing one wouldn't endanger the world, but I imagine that when we get further along Bangar's talks, we'll find out more about it (assuming Primordus is indeed "Jormag's enemy" which would be... sadly disappointing in all honesty).

All races... does this include Elder Dragons?Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

What if Jormag has been hiding Eggs / Scions, and is protecting it's children against a bigger threat, maybe the feral and destructive Primordus, maybe something else.This would be a neat twist to the "Jormag's secret" conversation coming up in several weeks.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

The thing about the trailer speech is that Jormag was directing it - supposedly at Bangar - and when they're talking to someone they want to manipulate, they twist the truth to be what they want.

Well, Elder Dragon isn't really a species, and keep in mind, Jormag was saying this to Bangar - it wouldn't be much of a selling point to "become my champion" if Jormag was saying Elder Dragons fear things.

Yes, the speech itself was directed at Bangar (it was mentioned in a Dev talk or something else) - however, the thoughts were Jormags'. It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it. Basically a kind of propaganda where others tell you what your biggest problem is.

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@Rhywolver.8250 said:It is Jormag's point of view of the world as it is now, Jormag's fear, and it tries to manipulate others with it.

Ehhh, I wouldn't call it Jormag's point of view of the world. Jormag is the dragon of persuasion - even if it only tells truths, it will always tell truths and points of view that benefit converting the receiver. There is no guarantee that Jormag believes its own words, nor any reason why such would be so. Nor would I consider it Jormag's fear - nothing in that speech really sounds like Jormag is fearful of something. Even Jormag's speech to the Commander via the Fraenir about the threat on the horizon doesn't sound fearful.

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@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Obviously it wanted to use us against Primordus. Through the shards achievement we knew that they had a huge clash and since they were each other's weakness. That's why it didn't kill us and try to seduce us.

It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

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And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey throughTyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

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@Bast.7253 said:And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey throughTyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@Bast.7253 said:And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?

It feels like they would be better teaming up, at least until they're the last two. Though I'd imagine Jormag took a journey throughTyria for a reason, and the only reason I can think of is to provoke Primordus somehow.

And yeah, I don't think Jormag is afraid at all. Jormag will likely be the cause of the threat whether we realize it at first or not. All about coercion.

I guess it would be foolhardly to rule out the idea that Jormag has beef with Primordus. Maybe Jormy intends to kill Prim, or maybe Jormy wants to wake Prim up before the DSD makes it's move.

No I definitely get it, and I'm not against it. I'm just wondering if the same weakness would apply should one of them fall and the other dragons take on their domains. If this is a domain thing and not some inner-workings of the All that we'll never really understand. There may be something deeper given that the All needs at least 4 dragons alive before shit hits the fan. I'm assuming they must be on opposing sides instead of 3 on 1 and 1 on the other. So the domains probably get shifted to balance it out.

I'd also assume that killing Primordus right now would be pretty detrimental in that case, as it seems like it would just empower the DSD (who presumably already counters Aurene naturally) and potentially empower it above the levels of Aurene and Jormag. I would have to assume that either Primordus or DSD would have to be the next to be replaced and that killing Jormag simply isn't an option right now, as whatever potential replacement we find in Cantha may not balance things out if it's replacing Jormag.

We're in a weird spot right now because we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth who countered each other, and Aurene immediately assumed Kralk's role so we don't really know the rules about what would happen if we killed another one besides it needing at least 4 to remain balanced.

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@Stephen.6312 said:It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

It's entirely possible Jormag didn't make a move against Primordus yet because Primordus woke up 50 years earlier, so it would have a major head start on obtaining power and forces. Primordus also consumed six asuran underground cities all on par to Rata Sum, while Jormag merely got a few norn shrines, and was even injured shortly after waking. Jormag would probably be on the lower end, meanwhile Primordus had been slowly hampered and prevented from surfacing by the stone dwarves until the past couple decades, so may want to stock up on more power before making another move on Jormag.

@Bast.7253 said:And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

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  • 1 month later...

I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Stephen.6312 said:It's possible that the two dragons were duelling as competitive rivals, rather than open enemies. Jormag and Primordus have been at work for a long time and neither have appeared to attack each other in that period. Jormag's got a long memory, as evidenced by it's comments on the nature of the ED cycles, so if it took the injury dealt by Primordus that seriously, I expect that it would've taken revenge against the Fire dragon long before now.

It's entirely possible Jormag didn't make a move against Primordus yet because Primordus woke up 50 years earlier, so it would have a major head start on obtaining power and forces. Primordus also consumed six asuran underground cities all on par to Rata Sum, while Jormag merely got a few norn shrines, and was even injured shortly after waking. Jormag would probably be on the lower end, meanwhile Primordus had been slowly hampered and prevented from surfacing by the stone dwarves until the past couple decades, so may want to stock up on more power before making another move on Jormag.

@Bast.7253 said:And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

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@zolcor.2601 said:I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

Also, what? What prophecy about flooding Tyria? I'll have to check the wiki on this.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@zolcor.2601 said:I think Jormag wants to either take Bubbles's power of water to amplify himself, or to truly help Tyria survive the prophesized flooding of Tyria as said by the krait by freezing a portoin of Tyria's ocean, and then use the freezing tactic to finish Bubbles. After Jormag takes some or all of Bubbles's powers of water I would expect Jormag to turn on the Commander for good saying it has no further need of him/her. In the end I think Jormag is secretly playing for extra power.

Also, what? What prophecy about flooding Tyria? I'll have to check the wiki on this.

The Krait priest class have a prophecy in which the entire planet gets flooded, bringing about Krait supremacy. Considering that the Krait priests have been altering their oral scriptures over the years the legitimacy of this prophecy should be taken with a grain of salt. And by grain, I mean one those cinder block sized bricks of salt that some water softeners used to use.

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@"Bast.7253" said:But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

Kralkatorrik mentioned Aurene as "the first of her kind", so there will be basically more. It's not impossible if Jormag has Scions that can replace both themself and Primordus that Jormag is willing to end their own cycle and step back for the new generation, the "new kind" of elder dragons. However, if Primordus is the big threat to Jormag (and Tyria), they are aware of possibly dying in a fight against him.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jormag has a frost and a fire themed scion, maybe with slightly shifted domains. The sentence "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame" is just too suspicious in my book and might be the one thing that Jormag really fears.

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@Bast.7253 said:

@Bast.7253 said:And everyone keeps on insisting that Jormag is out to get Primordus because they're each other's natural weaknesses, but wouldn't eliminating him just potentially give the remaining elder dragons that same advantage?Well, if Jormag has any scions capable of replacing Elder Dragons, that would be a good cause for Jormag to seek out Primordus' death - to have their own children then replace Primordus just as Aurene replaced Kralkatorrik.

Or if ANet goes with the boring route of Aurene replacing all the Elder Dragons in the end, Jormag could see Aurene as a means to remove Primordus without the DSD getting its powers - thus would be why Jormag's been playing nice to Aurene. [Though I like the idea of Jormag wanting to use Aurene to remove its own magical Torment more, personally.]

But would having a scion replace Primordus even be a benefit to Jormag if they all go insane and get greedy in the end? I guess we're assuming Jormag would have control over the scion even after ascenscion? Or somekind of loyalty? It just seems like the torment would inevitably get to it as well and repeat the same cycle of them inevitably battling each other. Only then I feel like the scion would have an advantage over Jormag due to being its scion originally and having a connection/being more familiar with Jormag's magic? Maybe I'm missing something about the benefit of Jormag's scion taking over the role.

I mean, I wouldn't expect the writers to go in either of these directions and inevitably we'll just kill them both. But I'm just not seeing the advantage either way.

My line of thought would be that the scion would be enslaved to Jormag like any ol' icebrood, and even as an Elder Dragon would be bound to Jormag's will. In regards to Torment, first assuming that other Elder Dragons are afflicted by it, how it treated Kralkatorrik wasn't so much controlling it so much as being that constant devil on the shoulder telling Kralkatorrik to do these things to make itself suffer less. Since that rather relies on the Elder Dragon having free will, an Elder Dragon enslaved to another would suffer Torment, but still be controllable. In theory.

I don't think that's the direction that ANet is going, though.

@"Rhywolver.8250" said:Kralkatorrik mentioned Aurene as "the first of her kind", so there will be basically more. It's not impossible if Jormag has Scions that can replace both themself and Primordus that Jormag is willing to end their own cycle and step back for the new generation, the "new kind" of elder dragons. However, if Primordus is the big threat to Jormag (and Tyria), they are aware of possibly dying in a fight against him.

I wouldn't be surprised if Jormag has a frost and a fire themed scion, maybe with slightly shifted domains. The sentence "You fear the day your children no longer feel the chill of the frost or the warmth of the flame" is just too suspicious in my book and might be the one thing that Jormag really fears.I still believe Kralkatorrik's line about Aurene was just referring to her as a dragon that has a bond with mortals - even Glint and Vlast lacked such - as Glint's AI in her lair suggested that the bond with the Champion is what prevents magic from being a harmful burden to the dragon. Hence why all the talk that Scion and Champion were both necessary.

About the line from the trailer, I personally don't think there's anything special about it. When you leave it in context, then the whole first portion is about Bangar (who the trailer dialogue is directed towards per ANet devs) fearing that the charr will stop "being charr". Basically, Jormag feeding Bangar's supremacy mentality.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

I still believe Kralkatorrik's line about Aurene was just referring to her as a dragon that has a bond with mortals - even Glint and Vlast lacked such - as Glint's AI in her lair suggested that the bond with the Champion is what prevents magic from being a harmful burden to the dragon. Hence why all the talk that Scion and Champion were both necessary.

That's possible, but wouldn't that mean that future dragons of Aurene's kind would have to undergo similar care, education and mentoring? Or would Jormag choose their own way of establishing such bond with mortals? I mean they were already choosing a champion with a free will.

About the line from the trailer, I personally don't think there's anything special about it. When you leave it in context, then the whole first portion is about Bangar (who the trailer dialogue is directed towards per ANet devs) fearing that the charr will stop "being charr". Basically, Jormag feeding Bangar's supremacy mentality.

I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

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@"Rhywolver.8250" said:I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).Bangar certainly does seem to have cared about Almorra. Not enough to put aside his ambitions led by Jormag's whispers, but the emotion's certainly there, and is there when she taunts him about losing his son, Ajax.

And I think you're taking the trailer dialogue about children and "feeling the warmth of flame" too literally. It wouldn't mean Bangar's biological children, but rather the dialogue is talking about all young charr in his community, and Bangar's fear that the charr species would die (or cease to be how he defines "charr") because of his own inaction.

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@Rhywolver.8250 said:

I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself. Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict. We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

My thoughts exactly, Rhywolver. I don't think anyone should believe the IBS trailer addresses Bangar unless either Bobby Stein or Tom Abernathy emphatically states as much in this thread. Each player must think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about the material presented to them thus far.

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@Stephen.6312 said:

@"Rhywolver.8250" said:

I don't think Bangar loves anyone besides himself.
Also, the line about the children doesn't even make sense when whispered to a traditional Charr like Bangar, who have the least natural bonds to relatives between the races, and has already lost his cub Ajax in a stupid conflict.
We know of no other children right now (although Rytlock is a possible candidate).

My thoughts exactly, Rhywolver. I don't think anyone should believe the IBS trailer addresses Bangar unless either Bobby Stein or Tom Abernathy emphatically states as much in this thread. Each player must think for themselves and come to their own conclusions about the material presented to them thus far.

You realize the person who said it was directed at Bangar was Julia Nardin. For clarity and the lazy, she was Narrative Lead. She might not work at ANet anymore, and while she wasn't Studio Narrative Director like Tom Abernathy or Associate Narrative Director like Bobby Stein, but I'm pretty sure the Story Editor and Narrative Lead would know something like this and be a credible source. She also went into quite a lot of details about Bangar, the trailer, and charr society. So she seems to have been educated enough in the lore to trust.

This isn't a throwaway from a random dev going "yeah man the trailer was talking to bangar lol".

Think for yourself, but don't ignore credible sources and solid facts.

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The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

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@Jack Swiftclaw.9076 said:The idea of a scion for Jormag is interesting. What would it be? Has it been born? Who is it's champion?

We are neglecting one aspect of this story. The Norn. Why are we getting so much about the spirts of the wild?

The idea that this is just a fluff filler makes no sense to me. I'm drawn to the idea of a centaur. They were featured in the trailer and we haven't seen any. What if, and this is just a thought, we kill Jormag and replace him with a belovant centaur similar to ventari. This could be the change in tide or the human centaur war. Idk it's the idea that won't leave me. We all assume that the scion is a dragon but what if the vessal just needs to be able to channel and control the dragon magic.

With how much the Spirits of the Wild are being dissected, I wouldn’t be surprised if they consumed Jormag’s energy that or Aurene absorbs it all and puts her into a sickness that leads us to going to Cantha in order to save her and find additional entities to take on the excess magic.

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