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And just like that. 2 great builds have vanished. A loss for Build Diversity.


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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I don't have any views pro or con here, but I have to ask, if a Rune is what makes or breaks a specific build, doesn't that suggest the Rune itself is an issue?

The first thing is that you see it as an issue to begin with.

Some mechanics are critical to how a build can function at all in the first place. For example, Smothering Auras and by proxy it’s sister mechanic, Rune of the Trooper (both of which have no ICD btw), allow the current meta ele build to even cleanse conditions at all. Take either one or both of those away and you will effectively and permanently kill Support Ele.

Likewise Rune of Altruism allows builds like the 0 energy Rev to cleanse enough conditions to be competitive. Take that away and you will like I said earlier, effectively kill the build

Unlike Mortar Kit, Shouts and Fire Auras have Cooldowns so unless they want to put a CD on Mortar kit (Which would be silly with the other kits not having CD anyway) easiest way is to put a ICD on the rune itself.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:yeah nah it was stupid as hell. as a sup engi main im pleased to see it gone

And just because you think something is stupid means it deserves to be removed from the game? i don't see the logic there. I think the current meta is stupid. So am i justified in thinking that the meta should be removed from the game?

Also what does being a sup engi main have anything to do with this? I've mained sup engi for probably 3 weeks...does that make my opinion anymore valuable than anyone else?

It was overpowered as hell.

Giving the rune set an internal cooldown prevents issues in the future with other elites which might be spam-able.

As a support engi main myself: yes it was fun, yes it was overpowered as hell, yes it was to be expected that some type of change would be implemented. Holding down the elite skill as much as possible during fights is hardly skill.

@misterman.1530 said:Sorry. The Rune effect only triggered on an Elite skill use. Since Elite skills have their own cooldown, not sure how this 10 sec cooldown has any affect. I will admit I know little about Rev mechanics, but how has this change impacted...well...anyone?

Equipping and unequipping the mortar kit had no cooldown. Do the connection here.

I was talking about the rev. Do the connection here.

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@misterman.1530 said:

@Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:yeah nah it was stupid as hell. as a sup engi main im pleased to see it gone

And just because you think something is stupid means it deserves to be removed from the game? i don't see the logic there. I think the current meta is stupid. So am i justified in thinking that the meta should be removed from the game?

Also what does being a sup engi main have anything to do with this? I've mained sup engi for probably 3 weeks...does that make my opinion anymore valuable than anyone else?

It was overpowered as hell.

Giving the rune set an internal cooldown prevents issues in the future with other elites which might be spam-able.

As a support engi main myself: yes it was fun, yes it was overpowered as hell, yes it was to be expected that some type of change would be implemented. Holding down the elite skill as much as possible during fights is hardly skill.

@misterman.1530 said:Sorry. The Rune effect only triggered on an Elite skill use. Since Elite skills have their own cooldown, not sure how this 10 sec cooldown has any affect. I will admit I know little about Rev mechanics, but how has this change impacted...well...anyone?

Equipping and unequipping the mortar kit had no cooldown. Do the connection here.

I was talking about the rev. Do the connection here.

The rev worked on the same principle. It's clearly visible in the videos that the elite gets triggered nultiple times in short time spans.

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This is what balance does.... reduce or kills what is to much...

The less gimmicks builds we have in game the better.... as a support rev myself i alawats the altruismt was to much, pain abosrtion and keep pulling condis with the rune with always perma resistance kinda felt really to much altough some group were so h heavy on condi bunkering and sustain that felt the build was needed once in a while.

Within this gimmick remover i hope some condi gimmicks are gona get toned down as well.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684Man i saw a lot of boring stuff. You added something new and raised the level. Congratulations for your stamina i guess. Do you guys remember when playing a healer was fun and a challenge? For me it was Guild Wars and Ryzom. Damn i miss my favorite class. What's the chance that we see a new game with a real healer class again guys?

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@MiniMe.1960 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684Man i saw a lot of boring stuff. You added something new and raised the level. Congratulations for your stamina i guess. Do you guys remember when playing a healer was fun and a challenge?

Thanks I appreciate that. Most if not alll the fun healing builds are gone now. So it’s real sad state of the game. I’ll continue to theorycraft if something new comes along but i have my doubts given the current balance goals of the game.

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@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:I don't have any views pro or con here, but I have to ask, if a Rune is what makes or breaks a specific build, doesn't that suggest the Rune itself is an issue?

The first thing is that you see it as an issue to begin with.

Some mechanics are critical to how a build can function at all in the first place. For example, Smothering Auras and by proxy it’s sister mechanic, Rune of the Trooper (both of which have no ICD btw), allow the current meta ele build to even cleanse conditions at all. Take either one or both of those away and you will effectively and permanently kill Support Ele.

Likewise Rune of Altruism allows builds like the 0 energy Rev to cleanse enough conditions to be competitive. Take that away and you will like I said earlier, effectively kill the build

Unlike Mortar Kit, Shouts and Fire Auras have Cooldowns so unless they want to put a CD on Mortar kit (Which would be silly with the other kits not having CD anyway) easiest way is to put a ICD on the rune itself.

Another solution would be to give mortar kit the med kit treatment: make the toolbelt skill count as the elite skill.Core elite toolbelt skills all have a fairly long cd, scrapper's function gyro has a minimum cd of 25 seconds. The biggest abuse case would be holosmith with being able to use their photon forge to trigger elite skill effects.

Which would still be less frequent than letting these effects trigger on mortar kit itself, since photon forge has a 6 seconds cd to leave the mode after activating it and it is also gated by heat.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

For being this great, it is sad you are complaining so much about overpowered builds based on unintended interactions getting removed. I would get it if someone who is mediocre at the game complained because his cheese build does not carry him any longer. This, this is just sad.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

For being this great, it is sad you are complaining so much about overpowered builds based on unintended interactions getting removed. I would get it if someone who is mediocre at the game complained because his cheese build does not carry him any longer. This, this is just sad.

Sounds like you play meta scrapper but can’t stand it when someone with anything remotely off meta is able to do more than you can?

So you cry for nerfs, then the nerfs happen and it’s the creative and the better players that pay the price for that. I’m sure there’s a lot of builds you consider “overpowered.” Maybe that’s the que for you to look into your own performance.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

For being this great, it is sad you are complaining so much about overpowered builds based on unintended interactions getting removed. I would get it if someone who is mediocre at the game complained because his cheese build does not carry him any longer. This, this is just sad.

Sounds like you play meta scrapper but can’t stand it when someone with anything remotely off meta is able to do more than you can?

So you cry for nerfs, then the nerfs happen and it’s the creative and the better players that pay the price for that. I’m sure there’s a lot of builds you consider “overpowered.” Maybe that’s the que for you to look into your own performance.

jesus.. get over yourself man. neither was it far from meta nor was it any more creative than using grenade barrage when it released two skills at the same time or when elementalists meteor showers were so bugged they hit for 15k each hit, Learn to play an actual build

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

For being this great, it is sad you are complaining so much about overpowered builds based on unintended interactions getting removed. I would get it if someone who is mediocre at the game complained because his cheese build does not carry him any longer. This, this is just sad.

Sounds like you play meta scrapper but can’t stand it when someone with anything remotely off meta is able to do more than you can?

So you cry for nerfs, then the nerfs happen and it’s the creative and the better players that pay the price for that. I’m sure there’s a lot of builds you consider “overpowered.” Maybe that’s the que for you to look into your own performance.

I didn't cry for nerfs. I understand them. Big difference. I was running altu scrapper the last weeks, I mentioned that. I'm not the one whining in this thread m8 nor am I the one pretending that metabattle defines the meta when a stronger build is available. Altu scrapper was meta by simple reasoning that it was far superior to regular support scrapper.

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@Dagger.2035 said:I’m sure the other players were just playing the game normally since they weren’t aware a cleansing competition was going on. Meanwhile you’re going all out on cleanses to prove a point.

This was taken literally my first day playing Scrapper...never played Engi until this day. I can even screen shot the age of my character and you’ll see it was made a few days prior to the February CMC patch, to prove I’m not jocking anyone.

Point is that some people here think the Rune of Altruism was this OP thing that needs to be nerfed cause it was SO problematic, unintended and made for “stupid” gameplay...yet the Meta build seems to fit that description to a T and I’m being “encouraged” to play that instead.

So why should anyone here tell me or anyone else to go play “An actual build” aka the meta support scrapper, as if it is somehow the only way to show that you have skill? That playing anything off meta is considered “stupid” or deserving of a nerf just because it doesn’t abide by your “level” of playing standards.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:Learn to play an actual build

Oh an actual build? You mean the meta support scrapper?

Been there done that.

Played it for less than a day after my main got nerfed and was already blowing everyone out of the water in cleansing.but surely that’s not overpowered right?

LmRR7gB.png

Was that screenie taken when Antitoxin was a thing with scrappers? Also who knows the fight seemed to have taken a long time so perhaps the other players went out of combat for some time?

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@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@"Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365" said:Learn to play an actual build

Oh an actual build? You mean the meta support scrapper?

Been there done that.

Played it for less than a day after my main got nerfed and was already blowing everyone out of the water in cleansing.but surely that’s not overpowered right?

LmRR7gB.png

Was that screenie taken when Antitoxin was a thing with scrappers?

This was taken on reset the week of the CMC balance patch in February. Antitoxin was nerfed like...more than a year ago.

In this image I am using the exact meta build from metabattle with the exception of one utility, which was instead of Bulwark Gyro I was using Shredder Gyro. At the time, condo meta became the new hot thing, so as I’m always theorycrafting and tinkering around I was testing the viability of using shredder to cleanse conditions.

Also who knows the fight seemed to have taken a long time so perhaps the other players went out of combat for some time?

I get this a lot when people see crazy things on the cleanse meter quote:

  • Everyone else must suck, must be a pug group.
  • Show combat timer
  • probably standing in siege
  • probably NA, come to EU “l o l”

I’ve heard every reason under the sun why someone will refuse to believe numbers in their face....video, images, doesn’t even matter. You don’t want to believe what you see then try it yourself, you can get these numbers if you play like how I play...but apparently the way I play is too “stupid,” according to some people here.

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Looking at your rev gameplay, you're not even running party view. Are you just spamming skills without even knowing if your party has any conditions on them? Or, are you keeping the tag targeted as an indicator? This actually reminds me off all the burn guards linking arc dps. Thinking being on top matters, when they don't really generate any downeds.

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@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@steki.1478 said:From spamming water 1 on staff tempest to spamming mortar on scrapper. You always had a sense for quality gameplay.

I’ve been healing since before you could probably type on a computer...solo healing ICC 10 and 25 man since WoW days on Druid and shaman and played every iteration of competitive healing and a mix of my own creations since GW1. You don’t know what it means to hold halls or have an 8 man depend on you to tank Dhuum, heal your party and keep the grenth spirits alive in a UWSC.

Even on the now nerfed full heal tempest I could still probably cleanse more conditions than you on your full cleanse whatever tempest. Your “quality gameplay” is my version of casual gameplay

Proof is all there...maybe you didn’t notice in the video but this is Indo and his guildies. he’s there on the cleanse meter running “your build.” He’s near the bottom....no offense to him he’s a great guy and a great commander...so your gonna have to keep holding your little grudge until you can prove to me what you think quality gameplay is.

Altruism was a broken game mechanic , the 10 seconds icd was deserved , also the fact you are in Indo squad doesnt really tell much , they guy and his guild are very questionable , The Tempest cleansing build still a valid and decent one , surely , you need people with hands to play it.

but keep it going the popcorn time its quite nice

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@Absurd.2947 said:Looking at your rev gameplay, you're not even running party view. Are you just spamming skills without even knowing if your party has any conditions on them? Or, are you keeping the tag targeted as an indicator? This actually reminds me off all the burn guards linking arc dps. Thinking being on top matters, when they don't really generate any downeds.

Party target as support , hell , what ,why do you need party window when you can brainlessy spam your elite and call it gameplay on gw2 forum to flex with others about healing and experience

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