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From the Devs AMA- “to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”


Swagger.1459

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@Exedore.6320 said:Doubling duration but halving damage per tick means the same damage per application, but the initial damage isn't as high. A change like this would allow periodic health recovery (regeneration, leech, etc) to better counter-act conditions. Additionally, cleansing immediately would no longer be the difference between life and death. It would allow more judicious use of cleanse and limit condi burst with CC from shutting down builds without instant cast condition removal.They already did exactly this for the engineer (technically even more as condi traits was heavily nerfed in addition to duration doubling and stack halving) yet people still flail their arms and yell all conditions bad to the skies, rather than actually saying very specific builds on specific classes are bad and its been the exact same specific classes on the exact same specific builds for years.

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@Vancho.8750 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage
at least
in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”

Power Damage = Direct Damage in other games.

Condition Damage = Damage Over Time in other games.

Those 2 above damage types have been present in thousands of games, but Anet went a alternate route and isn’t fixing the problem. When the Devs rework Condition Damage, as we know it, to the tried and true DoT style, then we will have a better Condition System in competitive play. Also separating Condition Damage and CC Status Effects into 2 categories fixes issues too.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage
at least
in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”Arenanet is pretty inconsistent on what it says and what it does, old statements don't count for much. How was it "Arenanet consistent inconsistent".
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@Vancho.8750 said:

@"Fueki.4753" said:To me, conditions felt best in the beginning, when it was just a supplementary source of damage.

But with the current conditions system, cutting the damage
at least
in half and increasing the duration would be the best move.Also, remove the healing reduction from poison.

conditions were never a supplementary source of damage. condition builds have existed since the start.

increasing the duration would just make conditions stack higher than ever before, and make them deal higher dps towards the end of fight (where they deal most of their damage anyway)

removing the healing reduction from poison would just make it into bleed.

any other blatantly incorrect or misguided suggestions?They were probably designed as supplementary damage source since they start at 0 stats, and malice was probably intended to be like ferocity, so instead of crit damage you get dot damage from you skills, but they changed their mind at some point and condition damage is made to be like power but it only needs 2 stats to work instead of 3.

Condition damage was NOT designed as a “supplementary damage source”.

AMA quotes to start...

“We’re looking at the condition damage issues that are inherent to the scaling number of players in WvW. Major mode-centric changes are a major part of balance patches and we’ll be iterating through several potential changes specifically for WvW. I wouldn’t expect huge mode-specific balance changes before the first post-PoF balance patch”

“Power is intended to be more spike damage-centric. Condi more ramping sustained damage. Currently there are some issues with how quickly condition damage can be spiked up, negating the benefits of power damage. If I presented you with a power skill that dealt 1,000 damage instantaneously and a condition one that dealt 1,000 damage over 4 seconds there wouldn’t be a question about what build to choose; you’d go with the instant option every time. Not counting other effects, condition skills must inflict more damage over their duration in order to make power vs. condi into a real choice.”Arenanet is pretty inconsistent on what it says and what it does, old statements don't count for much. How was it "Arenanet consistent inconsistent".

I think you’ve just misunderstood. And that’s not an Anet problem.

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@Swagger.1459 said:1- A stat, that players can build for with gear, that mitigates (not removes) condi damage... Toughness would be my personal preference.

I am with this BUT power dmg is already reduced by Toughness, so if it also reduces condi it would be too overpowered stats. 2 different dmg type = 2 different dmg mitigation types. This way you can choose to have both and cut from your damage in order to be tankier or spec into specific dmg mitigation type. It is only fair :)

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@"bOTEB.1573" said:It is only fair

How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance and damage?After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:It is only fair

How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance
and
damage?After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

Ok but then we have to remove the condi duration reduction and condi cleanse which is a direct counter to condi damage.

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@"bOTEB.1573" said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:It is only fair

How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance
and
damage?After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

Ok but then we have to remove the condi duration reduction and condi cleanse which is a direct counter to condi damage.

And then you'd remove toughness, evades, invulnerability and all the other counters for power damage?

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"bOTEB.1573" said:It is only fair

How about Condition damage depending on three stats as well?or removing Ferocity and have Precision increase both critical hit chance
and
damage?After all, "it is only fair" if both damage types depend on the same amount of stats.

Sure. Just apply cleansing to power damage and you have a deal. Fair is fair.

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Condis will "Never" be healthy for the game mode, the only solution for real balance is to just remove damaging condis and balance the entirety of PvP fairly around power.

But ofc we don't do that because we want fun gameplay (well at least I think we do? Some how we're still playing conquest.) and to quote Masahiro Sakurai: "Unfair is fun."

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@Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

@"Shiyo.3578" said:Condi mirage AOE's a million condis around it everytime it bursts someone.lol wutAll the axe attacks need to hit to apply condi, pistol 4 applies condi if specc'd for it and applies the bleed to the target it hits, same with pistol 5, torch 4 and 5 and the shatters have a 240 radius which is less than double the melee range (130), aka barely anything. If you're being condi'd by the mirage its because the mirage is on top of you. And if you're getting "a million condis" from the mirage it's because you're the one targeted by it.

Yes, I was speaking for the lesser skilled players that will sit next to you and tank all your condis like that.That's why I said it's not overpowered, but lesser skilled players could find it frustrating.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:If I were to make changes, i would:1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:If I were to make changes, i would:1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

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conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:If I were to make changes, i would:1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

Okay

@Aihao.5824 said:How, being a thief i can spike necro that has 29k hp + srhroud, dealing 3.5k dmg with a backstab? Just bring the pre feb patch game state

This is what ~60% of players are saying @AliamRationem.5172. Trying to say it is an isolated position is either ignorant or misleading. You either buff power damage and/or nerf sustainability. As of this point, if we nerf Condi, it will be more of bunker slug fest than it already is.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

@"Jekkt.6045" said:conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

of course you can. there used to be a time where you could pick 6 individual runes, a gem for your amulet and single traits. nobody complained about it and it wasn't too complicated either. handholding is bad and people should stop thinking players are fundamentally stupid. if you want to get good at something you will if you put in work. if you don't want to, you don't care about complexity anyway.

the only other way to "fix" conditions is by increasing durations and reducing stacks. that will lead to worse ramp though. at the beginning of a fight your damage will be very low and then get higher and higher. this will resolve the problem with burst conditions but will introduce 2 new problems. once you stacked all your conditions the damage will be very high and on the other hand getting your conditions cleansed will feel extremely terrible because you have to start over again.

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@otto.5684 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:If I were to make changes, i would:1) make all non-damaging conditions (immobilize, cripple, weakness, slow, etc) be unaffected by expertise.2) make confusion and torment stack in duration only, not intensity.3) remove the damage over time part of Poison. And have it stack only in duration. Keep the reduced healing aspect.4) Traps don't begin recharging until triggered.

That would make bleeds and fire the only damaging condi. Basically, any condi build not named FB is dead.

I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go. I also think that resistance should operate like protection but for condi damage, with more access. Rev and warrior may require some skills/traits rework to compensate. Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay.

The real issue now is not that condi damage is too strong, but That power damage too weak. Way too weak. Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%.

As for traps, I agree that traps need some limitation. But trigger is not the way to go. This could lock the skill if you place the trap incorrectly, or enemy avoid it, for the entire game. Better solution is to limit the trap duration.

Are we playing the same game? I don't think we are. Your ideas are off in space, man.

Okay

@Aihao.5824 said:How, being a thief i can spike necro that has 29k hp + srhroud, dealing 3.5k dmg with a backstab? Just bring the pre feb patch game state

This is what ~60% of players are saying @AliamRationem.5172. Trying to say it is an isolated position is either ignorant or misleading. You either buff power damage and/or nerf sustainability. As of this point, if we nerf Condi, it will be more of bunker slug fest than it already is.

It sounds so much more reasonable when you don't say things like: "Almost all power skills need their damage increased between 25% to 35%."

Buff power? Yeah, sure. Where it makes sense. I enjoyed the pre 2/25 meta. You won't get any complaints from me on that! Nerf sustain on builds like necro that still overperform in that area? Yeah, sign me up. But then you go saying things like: "I think making toughness impact condi damage would be the way to go." and "Other than that, I think the balance between condi and condi removal is okay."

...aaaand we're off in space again. I think we might agree on some of the problem areas, but I strongly disagree with some of your solutions.

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

@Jekkt.6045 said:conditions stopped being an attrition style gameplay when they made them stackable. it was a big problem when you couldn't stack conditions except bleeding from different players because they just overwrote them. you had to juggle condition access around in a team which felt terrible. they failed at solving this problem though. instead of making conditions stack per player, they made them stack per condition. to elaborate: two classes applying burning should apply two burning stacks, one class should be able to apply only one burning stack. so you have one 10s burn that deals 7k damage instead of 5-10 that deal 7k in 2 seconds.

condition damage numbers were a bit different too. i'm sure my numbers aren't accurate but burning dealt around 700, bleeding 250, poison 350. so numbers were rarely ever over 2k/s and you had to stack all available conditions to get that high.

this would probably ruin condi specs in pve, so if possible, apply this only in pvp/wvw.

You cannot make such radical splits for gamemodes. Leveling up in PvE, getting used to mechanics and your own build should matter once you enter PvP. Things are way too different already.

of course you can. there used to be a time where you could pick 6 individual runes, a gem for your amulet and single traits. nobody complained about it and it wasn't too complicated either. handholding is bad and people should stop thinking players are fundamentally stupid. if you want to get good at something you will if you put in work. if you don't want to, you don't care about complexity anyway.

the only other way to "fix" conditions is by increasing durations and reducing stacks. that will lead to worse ramp though. at the beginning of a fight your damage will be very low and then get higher and higher. this will resolve the problem with burst conditions but will introduce 2 new problems. once you stacked all your conditions the damage will be very high and on the other hand getting your conditions cleansed will feel extremely terrible because you have to start over again.

Well of course you can, you just shouldn't. Because when PvP and PvE are basicly different games, less players are playing both. Your stats are different, your cooldowns are different, your skill effects/durations are different, and what you learned about other classes (those you end up fighting against) doesn't really apply either. And this frustrates many players, makes them go back to their original gamemode.

Also I'm in favor of increasing condition duration and reducing stacks ON SOME BUILDS. Imagine burnguard becoming a pressure oriented build, while mirage could stay roughly the same as it is now, with the ability to apply condi bursts. As a water weaver, you could keep cleansing the burning and potentially beat the guardian, while the same spammy gameplay gets you killed against a condi mirage(cover condis on confusion). This could result in a whole other kind of build diversity, where you don't just flat out counter/get countred by condibuilds, the type of cleansing you have also matters.

However this can be achived without capping condition stacks on a target, which I am against.

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