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The story ruins Jormag rising(spoilers)


Tazer.2157

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tazer.2157 said:Yes it is cringe because Crecia is the one who tells Rytlock the time to use his own weapon. Give me a break! The story makes Rytlock seem like an incompetent fool. Crecia should stop creciasplaining. She’s the worst character ever created in game.

I can only imagine how you can even begin to see things in this manner.

It's really obvious that Rytlock has taken the beta role in their relationship; Crecia tells him what to do all the time- have you done the Grothmar Valley strike mission? There's dialogue in it where Crecia is completely controlling. This seems at odds to me with Charr culture. If you open your mind a bit, you'll see that we are surrounded by weak male characters and that's sad, because it means the female characters can't be strong in their own roles; they take over the male role too.

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@Tazer.2157 said:Once again not surprisingly the story is the weakest element in the episode and quite frankly spoils the entire episode. So well done. After you retconned and antagonized Smodur, you’ve killed him off in a similar manner. Also after building up Bangar, this bad kitten of a Charr who has always been ahead of you, who has rallied troops to his side, who convinced Ryland to attack Almorra, you’ve collared him and put him in a cage. Just why? Please just go ahead and kill Bangar off because he clearly doesn’t not belong in this sad excuse for a story. Let him and Smodur be erased from memory and have a peaceful afterlife far away from this dreadful story. To Smodur and Bangar, two bad kitten Charr who have been badly written. May you both Rest In Peace.

lol...

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I don't have a problem with the way Smodur died. Ryland had a score to settle and he didn't muck about, he didn't monologue just long enough until we could rescue Smodur, he just went straight for him as payback and I think echoes how brutal the Charr are supposed to be. I take slight issue in the way Ryland just seemed to be able to teleport straight into the cave with his backup but eh, after Scarlet's god-like abilities, that's nothing.

I have problems with this release like everyone but when it comes to Smodur specifically, I'm sorry to see him go, but appreciate the way it was done. I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front.

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@Sarie.1630 said:I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front.

Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@borgs.6103 said:The whole thing is cringe, but the worst of it all was what they did to Smodur. He's the only one behaving like Charr and people call him an kitten.Remember, people - Charr have a militaristic culture based on Roman and Mongol societies. Heck, they treat Gladium as 2nd-class citizens, ditch their elderly and have little to no respect for the injured who can't serve. They're all a-holes from an outsider's point of view.

And I thought it couldn't get anymore lore-breaking than that Lazarus is Balthazar season where Charr Pact Commanders have to take the Shining Blade oath.What's next? Sylvari reproducing? Asura having a pantheon of gods?

when youre trying to set up an alliance with different races/cultures it would be smart to at least PRETEND to be a nice guy.this is either 100% kitten or 100% moron, certainly not a leader to follow

Smodur was a Charr who was progressive. He Even brokered a peace treaty with the humans. Ppl are upset about Smodur because his character was retconned into someone unrecognizable. He was made into a villain for absolutely no reason. And on top of that after he dies, the story just moves in like nothing happened.

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@Sir Alric.5078 said:

I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front
.

Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

Sometime ago the devs said they want to add Season 1 type events to this saga, which if you recall in season had the community voting for who will be the next captain on the LA council.

I’m wondering if the community will decide who will be the next Khan Ur.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front
.

Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

Sometime ago the devs said they want to add Season 1 type events to this saga, which if you recall in season had the community voting for who will be the next captain on the LA council.

And then Kiel won anyway.I distinctly remember the vast majority in the chats being in favour of Gnashblade though.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

I wonder if it's all gearing up to Efram being appointed as Khan-Ur. Whenever there's leading to be done, it's invariably Efram up-front
.

Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

Sometime ago the devs said they want to add Season 1 type events to this saga, which if you recall in season had the community voting for who will be the next captain on the LA council.

And then Kiel won anyway.I distinctly remember the vast majority in the chats being in favour of Gnashblade though.

We might have something similar in the saga for an epilogue episode

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Smodur was amazing back in LWS 2. Now he was just a cunt. I hoped Bangar would become some sort of reluctant anti-hero rather than antagonist. Also why does everyone want to kill Jormag?? Why make it an antagonist at all? For the Six's sake its the most exciting, mysterious and baffling of all EDs so far. It didn't kill us, it doesn't want us dead and it has a seemingly non-apocalyptic goal in mind. Jormag might just be the most interesting character in all of Icebrood Saga but the community just keeps retconing the story potential just because "oh its another ED we gotta punch it harder till it dies".

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@"Sheader.6827" said:Smodur was amazing back in LWS 2. Now he was just a kitten. I hoped Bangar would become some sort of reluctant anti-hero rather than antagonist. Also why does everyone want to kill Jormag?? Why make it an antagonist at all? For the Six's sake its the most exciting, mysterious and baffling of all EDs so far. It didn't kill us, it doesn't want us dead and it has a seemingly non-apocalyptic goal in mind. Jormag might just be the most interesting character in all of Icebrood Saga but the community just keeps retconing the story potential just because "oh its another ED we gotta punch it harder till it dies".Smodur didn't do anything in LWS2 to be "amazing" in any way. His entire plotline was "get rid of the ghosts and ill go join this summit" and "well, you didn't get rid of all the ghosts, but you got rid of some of them so ehh I'll go"

Also, Jormag may not want us dead, but that doesn't make it good. As its fond of saying "ice forties, Ice protects" It very likely wants to save the world... by turning it into a giant ball of ice frozen in time, with everything one of its minions. Not dissimilar to Zhaitan, whose minions constantly talked about how it wanted to end the pain and loss of death, by turning everyone into risen so everyone is undead forever. Jormag is just better at BSing then the other dragons were.

Besides, Jormag is already a known liar. promising to not attack the Norn if Asgeir left, only to constantly send its minions to attack the Norn anyways.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Sheader.6827" said:Smodur was amazing back in LWS 2. Now he was just a kitten. I hoped Bangar would become some sort of reluctant anti-hero rather than antagonist. Also why does everyone want to kill Jormag?? Why make it an antagonist at all? For the Six's sake its the most exciting, mysterious and baffling of all EDs so far. It didn't kill us, it doesn't want us dead and it has a seemingly non-apocalyptic goal in mind. Jormag might just be the most interesting character in all of Icebrood Saga but the community just keeps retconing the story potential just because "oh its another ED we gotta punch it harder till it dies".Smodur didn't do anything in LWS2 to be "amazing" in any way. His entire plotline was "get rid of the ghosts and ill go join this summit" and "well, you didn't get rid of all the ghosts, but you got rid of some of them so ehh I'll go"

Also, Jormag may not want us dead, but that doesn't make it good. As its fond of saying "ice forties, Ice protects" It very likely wants to save the world... by turning it into a giant ball of ice frozen in time, with everything one of its minions. Not dissimilar to Zhaitan, whose minions constantly talked about how it wanted to end the pain and loss of death, by turning everyone into risen so everyone is undead forever. Jormag is just better at BSing then the other dragons were.

Besides, Jormag is already a known liar. promising to not attack the Norn if Asgeir left, only to constantly send its minions to attack the Norn anyways.

Smodur was level-headed in the face of Mordremoth literally conjuring gigantic vines in the middle of Ascalon. Now he basically lost his cool because of a way smaller threat.

Jormag shouldn't be good, but that shouldn't make it bad either. In our eyes as small mortals, yes, ice shit and and Tyria becoming a big icy ball is terrifying. What if that isn't its goal? Jormag could have that in mind or a completely different mindset to preserve the balance of the world.

Jormag didn't lie. It promised not to destroy the Norn. Its minions might just be there to keep testing them so that they fight for the reason it let them live.

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@Sheader.6827 said:Smodur was level-headed in the face of Mordremoth literally conjuring gigantic vines in the middle of Ascalon. Now he basically lost his cool because of a way smaller threat.Smodur was willing to make allies in the face of a threat he couldn't overcome on his own. He already had said allies by the time of IBS, so he had no reason to act the way he did before. Also, the threat of Jormag is no lesser then the threat of Mordremoth.

Jormag shouldn't be good, but that shouldn't make it bad either. In our eyes as small mortals, yes, ice kitten and and Tyria becoming a big icy ball is terrifying. What if that isn't its goal? Jormag could have that in mind or a completely different mindset to preserve the balance of the world.

Jormag didn't lie. It promised not to destroy the Norn. Its minions might just be there to keep testing them so that they fight for the reason it let them live.Yeah man, manipulating Bangar into starting a civil war among the charr, causing the Vigil soldiers at Jora's Keep to kill each other, using Drakker to make the Kodan go crazy and commit suicide, its totally got a plan to help the world... yep.

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So... let me sum up.

  • Bangar getting muted by Jormag is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Ryland joining Jormag as their champion is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Rytlock deferring to Crecia over anything is a woman dominating a man and "at odds with charr culture;"
  • Crecia being an intelligent, skilled tactician and tribune who has worthwhile things to say is "creciasplaining."

This community has some interesting problems. I partly hope that Jormag is good just to wind the lot of you up even more.

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:So... let me sum up.

  • Bangar getting muted by Jormag is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Ryland joining Jormag as their champion is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Rytlock deferring to Crecia over anything is a woman dominating a man and "at odds with charr culture;"
  • Crecia being an intelligent, skilled tactician and tribune who has worthwhile things to say is "creciasplaining."

This community has some interesting problems. I partly hope that Jormag is good just to wind the lot of you up even more.

I would comment on this, but I’ll get a warning again. So I’m going to stay out of it. Instead I want to refocus on the retconning of characters done in this episode and the previous episode. The thing is though, people always support and get behind a good story and good characters. All we want is that and gw2 is capable of delivering good stories and characters. We have seen it in the zaithan arc, in hot and pof. We had major female characters and no one had any problems with them. Eir is still my favorite character in game and I like Kas too. So, no the community does not have any problems as you think but calling out a bad story does not make us a -ist or whatever.

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@Funky.4861 said:

@Tazer.2157 said:Yes it is cringe because Crecia is the one who tells Rytlock the time to use his own weapon. Give me a break! The story makes Rytlock seem like an incompetent fool. Crecia should stop creciasplaining. She’s the worst character ever created in game.

I can only imagine how you can even begin to see things in this manner.

It's really obvious that Rytlock has taken the beta role in their relationship; Crecia tells him what to do all the time- have you done the Grothmar Valley strike mission? There's dialogue in it where Crecia is completely controlling. This seems at odds to me with Charr culture. If you open your mind a bit, you'll see that we are surrounded by weak male characters and that's sad, because it means the female characters can't be strong in their own roles; they take over the male role too.

You'll also find that Rytlock has been under our 'command' since Heart of Thorns , or season 3 if you want to be picky.They have been softing up Rytlock for years, somebody who was already supposed to be a softer version of a generic Charr, the short stories in S4 come to mind as well as the beginning of s5e3.Crecia on the other-hand has been serving as head of the most forwardly and openly militaristic people possible on the planet. Since before Edge of Destiny.Crecia by all measures should be way more hardcore then Rytlock should be.Yet they messed this up too. Charr have been neutered for a long time in this story, the only one who was even remotely acting like a charr got shot possibly for a meme.

Also really? Crecia tells Rytlock to use his own weapon. The commander tells Rytlock to use his own weapon, something that Rytlock very clearly already knew he was going to be asked to do and was not bringing it up because he didn't like it.Don't be mad that oooo female character strong. Be mad that none of the Charr and especially Crecia aren't nearly as awesome as they should be.

@Tazer.2157 said:So well done. After you retconned and antagonized Smodur, you’ve killed him off in a similar manner.

Also they turned the character assassination they did to smodur into a literately assassination. Absolute gold.What the heck the Charr expansion better not be this watered-down.

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@White Kitsunee.4620 said:

@Tazer.2157 said:Yes it is cringe because Crecia is the one who tells Rytlock the time to use his own weapon. Give me a break! The story makes Rytlock seem like an incompetent fool. Crecia should stop creciasplaining. She’s the worst character ever created in game.

I can only imagine how you can even begin to see things in this manner.

It's really obvious that Rytlock has taken the beta role in their relationship; Crecia tells him what to do all the time- have you done the Grothmar Valley strike mission? There's dialogue in it where Crecia is completely controlling. This seems at odds to me with Charr culture. If you open your mind a bit, you'll see that we are surrounded by weak male characters and that's sad, because it means the female characters can't be strong in their own roles; they take over the male role too.

You'll also find that Rytlock has been under our 'command' since Heart of Thorns , or season 3 if you want to be picky.They have been softing up Rytlock for years, somebody who was already supposed to be a softer version of a generic Charr, the short stories in S4 come to mind as well as the beginning of s5e3.Crecia on the other-hand has been serving as head of the most forwardly and openly militaristic people possible on the planet. Since before Edge of Destiny.Crecia by all measures should be
way
more hardcore then Rytlock should be.Yet they messed this up too. Charr have been neutered for a long time in this story, the only one who was even remotely acting like a charr got shot possibly for a meme.

Are you talking about the same Crecia who you say is more hardcore the one that wants to “save” the Charr? So we have a Charr who hasn’t been in contact with humans, all she knows is the Charr way of life and now she wants to change all of that? At least have your characters stick to their roles and be consistent. Among all the Charr, Rytlock has been the one who has been around other races and cultures. If anything he should be the one who changes the Charr society.

Rytlock wouldn’t even tell us what he was doing in the mists or how he got his reverent powers. Now he obediently follows Crecia’s orders. Ever since Icebrood saga Rytlock has well been a brood too. He whines all the time, Crecia keeps telling him to behave, he has been neutered from the bad ass that he was.

Also really? Crecia tells Rytlock to use his own weapon. The commander tells Rytlock to use his own weapon, something that Rytlock very clearly already knew he was going to be asked to do and was not bringing it up because he didn't like it.Don't be mad that oooo female character strong. Be mad that none of the Charr and especially Crecia aren't nearly as awesome as they should be.

@Tazer.2157 said:So well done. After you retconned and antagonized Smodur, you’ve killed him off in a similar manner.

Also they turned the character assassination they did to smodur into a literately assassination. Absolute gold.What the heck the Charr expansion better not be this watered-down.

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@Tazer.2157 said:Are you talking about the same Crecia who you say is more hardcore the one that wants to “save” the Charr? So we have a Charr who hasn’t been in contact with humans, all she knows is the Charr way of life and now she wants to change all of that? At least have your characters stick to their roles and be consistent. Among all the Charr, Rytlock has been the one who has been around other races and cultures. If anything he should be the one who changes the Charr society.

Yes I am.Like I said Crecia should be a lot more hardcore then she currently is, based on her position under Bangar since ~ Edge of Destiny give or take. so say around 10 years.The Charr as a whole should have been a lot more hardcore then they currently are, based on their history and the way their society is set up.IIRC the whole "saving" the Charr has meant literately nothing yet, and is just a phrase. It's possible it will have significance in the future but as of right now the only character trying to make major changes to Charr society are Smodur and Bangar.

@Tazer.2157 said:Rytlock wouldn’t even tell us what he was doing in the mists or how he got his reverent powers. Now he obediently follows Crecia’s orders. Ever since Icebrood saga Rytlock has well been a brood too. He whines all the time, Crecia keeps telling him to behave, he has been neutered from the bad kitten that he was.

First off, Crecia is literally his wife, dude probably has some hang-ups with her too. Makes perfect sense that he would listen to her more then random people.Second off, no. Rytlock ins't being neutered by Crecia, if anything he is being neutered by Ryland. Rytlock's relationship with Ryland has informed basically every decision he's made during this entire season. So this season hasn't toned him down; Rytlock's character was always meant to be a bridge between the Charr lifestyle and the PC's perspective. That's the role he has played since Edge of Destiny. Rytlock always hated Charr society and how it worked, that's why him becoming Tribune was a punishment rather then a reward.Ever wonder why we've gotten so little Charr story from Core until now? It's because Charr culture is completely incompatibly with the game. Now that we are getting Charr story the devs have to tone everything the Charr do down to make it compatible with the story without mucking up the message. All of the Charr characters that we are supposed to see as allies or extremely toned down, all of the Charr we are supposed to see as loose cannon types or evil, (with the exception of Ryland) aren't toned down. Crecia falls into the former so she isn't allowed to be hardcore, similarly to Malice or the majority of the NPCS.

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@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:So... let me sum up.

  • Bangar getting muted by Jormag is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Ryland joining Jormag as their champion is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Rytlock deferring to Crecia over anything is a woman dominating a man and "at odds with charr culture;"
  • Crecia being an intelligent, skilled tactician and tribune who has worthwhile things to say is "creciasplaining."

This community has some interesting problems. I partly hope that Jormag is good just to wind the lot of you up even more.

Weird way to look at it that way, but okay.Flame Legion history aside, Charr society doesn't distinguish their populace as male or female, but as soldiers that either do or don't.My problem with Jormag is, she went from a THOT wanting only big, muscular man for minions to a lonely, old lady that collects cats.

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@borgs.6103 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:So... let me sum up.
  • Bangar getting muted by Jormag is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Ryland joining Jormag as their champion is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Rytlock deferring to Crecia over anything is a woman dominating a man and "at odds with charr culture;"
  • Crecia being an intelligent, skilled tactician and tribune who has worthwhile things to say is "creciasplaining."

This community has some interesting problems. I partly hope that Jormag is good just to wind the lot of you up even more.

Weird way to look at it that way, but okay.Flame Legion history aside, Charr society doesn't distinguish their populace as male or female, but as
soldiers
that either do or don't.My problem with Jormag is, she went from a THOT wanting only big, muscular man for minions to a lonely, old lady that collects cats.

My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:

@"Hypnowulf.7403" said:So... let me sum up.
  • Bangar getting muted by Jormag is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Ryland joining Jormag as their champion is a woman dominating a man (Jormag is nonbinary);
  • Rytlock deferring to Crecia over anything is a woman dominating a man and "at odds with charr culture;"
  • Crecia being an intelligent, skilled tactician and tribune who has worthwhile things to say is "creciasplaining."

This community has some interesting problems. I partly hope that Jormag is good just to wind the lot of you up even more.

Weird way to look at it that way, but okay.Flame Legion history aside, Charr society doesn't distinguish their populace as male or female, but as
soldiers
that either do or don't.My problem with Jormag is, she went from a THOT wanting only big, muscular man for minions to a lonely, old lady that collects cats.

My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever
shrunk.

Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head
wasn't
when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

Kralkatorrik also had varying sizes between his multiple appearances.

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

I also noticed that. But they probably scaled down Jormag's model so it wouldn't be too big to fit the screen, just like they did with Kralkatorrik.

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This is not Bangar's story. It's ours. He is an antagonist. it doesn't matter how powerful or smart he is shown before, he is bound to lose to us, simple as that.He can be smart but trying to te a dragon just like that is a dumb idea that only a egomaniac like him could even believe would work. And it bit him in the ass.

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