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Bring back the holy trinity.


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@Obtena.7952 said:The assumption of the OP is wrong ... introducing an artificial form of team structure like holy trinity will not introduce strategy to gaming. If anything, it will lock you in more.

^Completelly agree with that

For PVE i would say make mobs harder :), mobs dodge, condi cleanse, block, etc this would make players try to work as a team to negate those effects thats where the game dificulty lacks and why some players loose the feelign of doing something cause here is just pure DPS spam acomplishment...Mobs here are just 2-3 autos and they die :) its kinda welcome to the age of low IQ pve... then players get frightned to any small increase of dificulty pve m8 add from raid or the other smaller raids thing.

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@lil muffin.1250 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

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@Algreg.3629 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

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@Algreg.3629 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

failure to come up with a much better alternative does not elevate an original system, but you seem to be completely enthralled by the trinity. That being said, I doubt we are that much divided about GW2 approach as it appears.

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@Algreg.3629 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:And where is the strategy in the holy trinity?

You have a tank that just sits there, a healer keeping the tank alive and the dps has free cast, doing rotations.

WoW, much gameplay , such strategy.

the trinity has a lotof strategy for several reasons.tanking is about positioning and protecting.you have to make sure the boss doesnt cleave all your dps and healersthis has massive potential in gw2.healers have to keep people alive.. this requires strategy.and dps has to dodge mechanics and do their rotation well.

this seem simple but it also is tons easier to design complicated content to.world bosses at the moment are people passively applying boons.running around and rezzing people and we are all just trying to dps the boss down fast enough.

with a trinity you have tanks holding down bosses and key enemies.healers keeping those tanks alive.dps trying to stay alive while dps those key big enemies so we can go back and focus on the big boss.

tank uses taunt ability or goes in for damage aggrohealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tanktank has established aggrodps moves in to a safe spot(loop)dps unleasheshealer goes woosh woosh from some corner on tank(/loop)

that is the whole "strategy" in all strict trinity games, yeah, impressive.

Yeah, you're right. Everyone just playing versions of "DPS/Support" and stacking in a pile is a much more interesting way of handling things...

it barely is, but still, calling the trinity "strategy" is hogwash. Personally, I had hoped GW2 would be more about situational combat and reacting to a dynamic environment, no rotations, certainly not that ridiculous stacking and even more restrictive builds, .

If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers? And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?

Flexibility is not a bad thing, but that isn't the issue with GW2 raiding. The issue is that they took away these dynamics, but didn't replace them with anything. Worse, they couldn't figure out a way to fully do without them, so they re-introduced them as a pale shadow of what they are in the games they're poorly copying after they said they wouldn't.

failure to come up with a much better alternative does not elevate an original system, but you seem to be completely enthralled by the trinity. That being said, I doubt we are that much divided about GW2 approach as it appears.

Not exactly. I play GW2, but I don't raid. When I played trinity games, I did raid. I guess you can make sense of that.

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@"lil muffin.1250" said:I know what you are thinking. NO.I get it.However I think Guild wars 2 is a fantastic game but the way they have done combat has sort of elimanted "strategy"We currenly have a soft trinity.Some characters can tank.. however usually those characters dont seem like they should be the ones tanking.Some build are better for buffing.Some are great for healing.

However because everyone can heal themselves, because everyone can rez, because every specialization can dps things are a bit "all over the place"

  1. this makes the game incrediblyl hard to balance.
  2. I personally believe that most people are still smashing buttons because you rarely have to strategize.
  3. While we do work togethr oftern in gw2 its almost too passive.
  4. everything is too fast and it feels a bit like a mess.

What would the holy trinty do for guild wars 2.SLOW IT DOWN.I love action combat its great.But when i wanted to create a support character with my weaver i'm mostly healing by doing dps.or some random skill is giving someone might. or i'm giving a aura because of a passive.-- SO if we wanted to create a tempest spec that honored the holy trinity how would it be different.

  1. We would instead have a skill called " Radiant Aura" it would have a cool down and it would switch its effects based on what attunement you were in. This changes aura quite a bit from being passively applied to being purposely appllied. You would have to decide when would be the best time to place that specific attuned aura to a team mate.

Lets compare that to what we have now.How do we apply auras... well..there are like a thousand ways lol. you can get critally hit. you can use one of the shouts. you can do some dps with a flashy tornado skin.applying auras is currently passive.

This changes a lot of other things as well.Notice that in guild wars 2 there is a visual hot mess clutter of graphic effects especially when fighting big bosses. well thats becausse most people are using their skills to dps the boss in order to passivley help there team.Now with these more specific choices you have to make. you are popping less auras because you have to decide who needs it when.

Now we have to get rid of that heal skill that we all have.oof people are going to hate me for this. but as a warrior you should be tough you should be able to take hits but you shouldnt be able to provide a full heal to yourself.The heal button kind of destroys class identity and class neccessity.you should still be able to solo things but it should be much more easy to solo things with your buddy who enjoys support.

oh and pvp.. gurl the level of strategy it would bring to not just ranked.. but wvw.. gurrrrrrl.

gw2 is a fun game.. but it could be amazing they just need to revamp combat so people arent all doing the same thing.

There are pro and con with any system. I can see your points as if they focus more on making specific class tailored to certain roles balancing the game would probably be a lot easier. The idea that the dev had for this game was each class would be able to full fill the role of each of the tritity witouth you having to roll a specific class or if your doing group content you wouldnt have to wait for a specific class to do it. Thy kinda shot themselfs in the foot with this idea as they introduce elite spe and the druid. It not saying that there idea isnt there but each ele spec is there to fullfill a role to specalize in only issue is you only have two ele sepc full filling thoes roles. they should of started out with each class being in the catagory of a role and using the ele spec to change up that only issue is we only get a new elete spe when the expansion comes out.

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@vesica tempestas.1563 said:The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

Err... Wut?

Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

@kharmin.7683 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

(It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

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@kharmin.7683 said:

@lil muffin.1250 said:well I hope they learn their lesson if they ever make it to gw3..Personally, I see no lesson to be learned here. I think it is pioneering to have an MMO without trinity. Seemingly every other one has it. I say, let GW2 and GW3 be unique! Not everyone wants or loves trinity based MMOs. No need to slam Arenanet for trying to stand out.@lil muffin.1250 said:you laugh but if you think about it... lots of the content they build like bounties.they are litterally spam and dodging one shot mechanics.with the holy trinity people would have to group up and they can create more substance content that isnt boom you are dead cuz you couldnt see the aoe because everyones skills are being popped off all the time.Even with trinity, you wouldn't see the boss because of the AOE spam. That's an entirely different problem and not one that, IMO, needs a complete rework of the game's intent to solve.

Their uniqueness is also what shot the company in the foot in the long-run. GW1 followed a loose (emphasis on very loose) trinity and did fine. Only reason why it's like the way it is now is because, well, it's older than gw2.

Gw2 doesn't exactly have an excuse and went downhill slightly because of this disorganization, spam mentality, and just press 1 meme they're going through. Perhaps it would have helped improve the overall skill level of the playerbase, perhaps not, but breaking the mold didn't exactly inspire mmos to take up their 'uniqueness'. They're their own little anomaly people have very aggressive opinions about, be it negative or positive.

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@Obtena.7952 said:The assumption of the OP is wrong ... introducing an artificial form of team structure like holy trinity will not introduce strategy to gaming. If anything, it will lock you in more.

It also locks in the kinds of content that can be designed. In Trinity, you have to have something for the tank to do (active mitigation of damage, controlling adds, moving the boss), for the healer to do (heal, and more heal, maybe dps if lucky, chase the dps that defy healing), and the dps just get to do what they already do, except they might be responsible for added mechanics (touch this switch, dodge the floor). And if stuff goes south, the tank dies or the healer dies, and the whole thing wipes because one of the vital linchpins is gone. It's a very Feels Bad way to lose an encounter.And in overworld content, ugh. Ever play a healer in one of those other MMOs? It's so. effing. slow. All you're good for is Cure Wounds, so good luck finishing events under the time constraints...

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@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@"Astyrah.4015" said:if they enforced holy trinity in GW2, i might finally roll a healer class

but i want targetted, direct heals & buffs if it ever happened.

Trinity exist in raids. Before raids and hot there was only 1 role dps

yes i am aware of that, what i meant was, if they made a tank-healer-dps strict class/profession (like in WoW/FF14) like the OP wants.

also doesnt mean im demanding it too or with the OP of the thread.

it's just a "If they ever do this, then <>"

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@Taril.8619 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

Err... Wut?

Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

(It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

Whats wrong with ESO pve? It is the most difficult rewarding pve instance content I've played. Most vet content str8 up 1shots you if you don't block, dodge , interrupt properly and its not nearly as easy to revive in ESO because mechanics rarely let you breath. Vma is harder than liadri was in GW2 and has some of the best sets in the game. Its done everything better, and is much more competitive.. look at the achievements & rewards for nodeath vet clears and speedclears . Not to mention theres a normal mode for casuals on everything. I'd say is very well done lol. And I still mostly pvp in that game..

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@Rukia.4802 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

Err... Wut?

Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

(It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

Whats wrong with ESO pve?

Tanking is one dimensional, where you are spamming your Taunt skill once per 15 seconds because that's how aggro works in that game (Oh and you can forget about the high level of skill customization that the game prides itself on, because you're stuck with Shield because it is one of 2 lines that actually provides a Taunt but then has better blocks that is required for hard content)

Healing is one dimensional, where there's a lot of AoE heal spamming because that's all the game is set up for.

The game is pretty good if you're a DPS since you have a lot of flexibility with how you can build.

But in terms of being a Tank/Healer, it's as lame as many other MMO's. With the only upside being the blocking system is pretty cool and infinitely better than the typical "RNG chance to block incoming attacks passively" found in MMO's.

P.s. One shots are not condusive to good gameplay, since they literally invalidate healers if they land.

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@Taril.8619 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:The alternative to trinity is established in games like eso or gw2 both of which have solid pve and pvp.

Err... Wut?

Firstly, ESO uses a trinity for its PvE. You have a Tank, Healer and DPS...

Secondly, ESO having solid PvE? lul

Thirdly, GW2 having solid PvP? lul

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:Mmos need trinity - meat shield/jump out of red circles like a hole in the head, the world had moved on.

The fact that GW2 has persevered over 7+ years without the holy trinity would seem to disagree with this point.

Might want to re-read that particular quote. As it's saying that MMO's don't need trinity.

(It does however talk about meat shields and moving out of bad circles... Which is literally GW2's Raiding...)

Whats wrong with ESO pve?

Tanking is one dimensional, where you are spamming your Taunt skill once per 15 seconds because that's how aggro works in that game (Oh and you can forget about the high level of skill customization that the game prides itself on, because you're stuck with Shield because it is one of 2 lines that actually provides a Taunt but then has better blocks that is required for hard content)

Healing is one dimensional, where there's a lot of AoE heal spamming because that's all the game is set up for.

The game is pretty good if you're a DPS since you have a lot of flexibility with how you can build.

But in terms of being a Tank/Healer, it's as lame as many other MMO's. With the only upside being the blocking system is pretty cool and infinitely better than the typical "RNG chance to block incoming attacks passively" found in MMO's.

P.s. One shots are not condusive to good gameplay, since they literally invalidate healers if they land.

Nice just strawman everything and pretend mechanics don't exist.. I have a sneaking suspicion you haven't played it much. You could literally pull the same strawman for GW2 and it would sound just as dumb. "ball up, ez lol"

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@lil muffin.1250 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:The Trinity is kind of there in the game.. the problem is that there are very few areas of the game where it's valid to build for.

yes there is definitely a soft trinity.. but its distilled so far down that it makes builidng meaningful content more difficult.

lets imagine tequatal with the trinity.first you would have to have the tanks hold his aggro for his large damage spells.then the healers would have to keep those tanks alive.dps does dps.and maybe some characters could be build to support.And then after 2 minutes of the fight you realize that not enough players wanted to play healer today, and you wipe. Because, you know, you have absolutely no control over what classes would join an open map instance.

Thanks, but no.

By the way, you might not have noticed, but generally most of the players in most mmos aren't really interested in higher levels of difficulty. In GW2 that ratio is even more skewed in the direction of casuals.

So, you are proposing that the game introduces changes that would make most of its current players less interested in it. Somehow, i'm not entirely sure that making most of your playerbase less interested in playing would be a sensible direction to take.

@Vayne.8563 said:I'll repost my response to this thread on reddit:

If you think taking out the holy trinity eliminated strategy, then you just haven't learned the strategy. There's plenty of that in composition of teams, providing all the boons, combo fields, and various protections.

You're just ignoring them.Also, this.

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@AliamRationem.5172 said:If it's hogwash, then why couldn't they figure out a way to design compelling encounters without introducing pseudo tanks and healers?

They probably could, but everyone (both raiders and devs) is so locked to the old raiding model that it was easier to just try to ape the original design.

Notice, that the holy trinity is something that wasn't created due to the superiority of said system, but purely due to original AI in RPG games being so dumb it was easy to exploit it. And the reasons why it remained even after that constraint no longer applied, was because:

  • it was easier for devs, since they didn't need to bother devising actually truly engaging encounters
  • it was something players were already used to, and expected to happen
  • it made things easier for players, because it significantly reduced teamwork requirements, reducing pressure on individual players by allowing players to deal with only one role at a time.

So, basically, Holy Trinity is such a succesful design, because it makes things simple for everyone involved. Which is ironic, seeing as it's mostly wanted in content where people actually say they want more complex stuff.

There's a reason why holy trinity doesn't work as well in pvp modes unless it is massively enforced by the system. It's because the opponents are not so dumb as mobs are.

And why would you want to play a game that does that rather than a game that builds from the ground up with that in mind?Oh, that was a weird decision all right. I just suspect that if they made encounters that truly utilized the original combat system and design to the fullest, the encounters would have ended way too hard even for many raiders. And raids would have ended dead on arrival.

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