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The story ruins Jormag rising(spoilers)


Tazer.2157

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@Kylden Ar.3724 said:My issue with Jormag is he/she/it/they/dragonhelicopter/whatever shrunk.

Seriously, look at the tooth in Hoelbrak, then think about how big Jormag's head wasn't when it was basically in your face. There is NO WAY that tooth came from that head.

@Fueki.4753 said:Kralkatorrik also had varying sizes between his multiple appearances.

@Sir Alric.5078 said:I also noticed that. But they probably scaled down Jormag's model so it wouldn't be too big to fit the screen, just like they did with Kralkatorrik.

The tooth came from Jormag's left tusk, which has its tip broken off, a tusk being a type of tooth(which apparently a lot of people don't know that tusk are teeth for some reason)

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@Funky.4861 said:

@"Tazer.2157" said:Yes it is cringe because Crecia is the one who tells Rytlock the time to use his own weapon. Give me a break! The story makes Rytlock seem like an incompetent fool. Crecia should stop creciasplaining. She’s the worst character ever created in game.

I can only imagine how you can even begin to see things in this manner.

It's really obvious that Rytlock has taken the beta role in their relationship; Crecia tells him what to do all the time- have you done the Grothmar Valley strike mission? There's dialogue in it where Crecia is completely controlling. This seems at odds to me with Charr culture. If you open your mind a bit, you'll see that we are surrounded by weak male characters and that's sad, because it means the female characters can't be strong in their own roles; they take over the male role too.

There aren't "male and female" roles in Charr culture.

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@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:There aren't "male and female" roles in Charr culture.There also wasn't "family" in Charr culture, until Arenanet introduced it in Season 5.

That aside, male and female roles were very distinct, back when the Flame Legion lead all Charr.Males did all the fighting, females kept home clean and cooked.There, the roles were kept very strictly, until Season 5 introduced the reformed Flame Legion.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Eekasqueak.7850" said:There aren't "male and female" roles in Charr culture.There also wasn't "family" in Charr culture, until Arenanet introduced it in Season 5.

That aside, male and female roles were very distinct, back when the Flame Legion lead all Charr.Males did all the fighting, females kept home clean and cooked.There, the roles were kept very strictly, until Season 5 introduced the reformed Flame Legion.

Aside from the fact that bringing up flame legion tradition is completely irrelevant,

What are you talking about? What family roles did anet introduce in season5?I haven't been keeping up with everything 100% so I'm open if I missed something.

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@"White Kitsunee.4620" said:Aside from the fact that bringing up flame legion tradition is completely irrelevant,Except that Flame Legion culture was THE Charr culture until the three other legion split away.

What are you talking about? What family roles did anet introduce in season5?I haven't been keeping up with everything 100% so I'm open if I missed something.Before, Charr (in the Legions) simply left their cubs at the fahrar and didn't form family bonds.With the prologue, Arenanet established the fact that some Charr actually develop enough feelings that they disguise themselves to visit the fahrar.

Within the entire season 5, we also see Rytlock (who previously was established as a mostly logical, hardened soldier) deteriorating from that logical soldier into a "must save stupid son" father, just to artificially create fiction to forcefully scrape some kind of subplot together.And then he keeps bickering with Crecia like an old couple, even though they should have a professional attitude towards each other, as previous Charr lore implied.

In the vigil questline, Almorra had no regret in letting Ajax die, but in her dialogue with Bangar she suddenly grew emotional towards Ajax's transition into the renegade leader.

That's a whole lot of bonds that make no sense with how Charr society was presented before season 5.

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@"Fueki.4753" said:Except that Flame Legion culture was THE Charr culture until the three other legion split away.

Except they haven't... for like 120 years I cannon or so. The Charr have specifically moved away from the Flame Legion lifestyle and have tried to snuff out every last bit of its existence until recently.

Before, Charr (in the Legions) simply left their cubs at the fahrar and didn't form family bonds.With the prologue, Arenanet established the fact that some Charr actually develop enough feelings that they disguise themselves to visit the fahrar.

Within the entire season 5, we also see Rytlock (who previously was established as a mostly logical, hardened soldier) deteriorating from that logical soldier into a "must save stupid son" father, just to artificially create fiction to forcefully scrape some kind of subplot together.And then he keeps bickering with Crecia like an old couple, even though they should have a professional attitude towards each other, as previous Charr lore implied.

Okay so I have a couple of problems with this logic.

First off, a couple of people watching their kids from afar doesn't count as a familiar roles within charr society.Second, watching over your kid while he is in the frahrar isn't new, there's several voiced lines in the vanilla Black citadel that expressed this.If your a leatherworker in BC you'll know what I'm talking about.Third off, Rytlock caring an odd amount about his son was introduced in the side stories during season 4, additionally Rytlock isn't the hardened professional type. Over the years he has slowly turned closer and closer to his original book incarnation.

All that being said I have to agree with your main point that Rytlock gives way too much of a crap about his son and its really messing with his character.And yea this is probably just a plot device for rytlock.But that doesn't represent a shift in charr society, Rytloxk has always been an outlier in charr culture. The devs have somewhat foolishly decided to lean into that and here we are.

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@White Kitsunee.4620 said:But that doesn't represent a shift in charr society, Rytloxk has always been an outlier in charr culture. The devs have somewhat foolishly decided to lean into that and here we are.Why is it foolish to lean into something that Rytlock naturally is? IF anything, it would be foolish to NOT lean into it because that would ignore the whole point of Rytlock's character, which is that he isn't like other Charr because he spent so much time with non-charr.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

@borgs.6103 said:The whole thing is cringe, but the worst of it all was what they did to Smodur. He's the only one behaving like Charr and people call him an kitten.Remember, people - Charr have a militaristic culture based on Roman and Mongol societies. Heck, they treat Gladium as 2nd-class citizens, ditch their elderly and have little to no respect for the injured who can't serve. They're all a-holes from an outsider's point of view.

And I thought it couldn't get anymore lore-breaking than that Lazarus is Balthazar season where Charr Pact Commanders have to take the Shining Blade oath.What's next? Sylvari reproducing? Asura having a pantheon of gods?

when youre trying to set up an alliance with different races/cultures it would be smart to at least PRETEND to be a nice guy.this is either 100% kitten or 100% moron, certainly not a leader to follow

Smodur was a Charr who was progressive. He Even brokered a peace treaty with the humans. Ppl are upset about Smodur because his character was retconned into someone unrecognizable. He was made into a villain for absolutely no reason. And on top of that after he dies, the story just moves in like nothing happened.

so, hes not a bad character, but only a poorly written one. okay. one charr less to worry about, works for me

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@Sir Alric.5078 said:Bangar is a puppet on display, Ryland is now a Champion of Jormag, Smodur is dead, Efram seems like a good guy but he leads the Flame legion which was the enemy until not too long ago, so i don't think they will choose him. Plus he's now the only dude among an all female leadership. I get the feeling that they are going to pick Crecia for the job, but we shall see.

You really think there will be another Khan-Ur? I'm a bit skeptical about that, because I don't feel like the Charr will want the power centered on one person. It might feel like a step backward.

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@Loesh.4697 said:Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

Imagine.

The Charr are not humans. Their values and views are very much different from what we accept. If you want to humanize every race, just delete races and have us all play humans. With different races, you can tell incredible stories, you can build the world with conflict, agreements etc. You can tell stories from a different perspective. Humanizing races is so unimaginative and boring and bad for the diversity of the game. If Charr= humans, why even pick between the two? But it seems these days people are much more concerned about social issues in the real world and they want in-game lore to reflect real issues. Games are supposed to be fantasy worlds. They aren’t supposed to reflect real life and real world issues. With the whole thing about “changing the Charr”, the writers are mistaking tyria for planet earth when they should not. Tyria is a place where the writers can make the rules up, sadly they are now making Tyria planet earth B where everyone should work towards world peace and live happily ever after.

Imagine telling a story about a militaristic society dealing with a civil war. That would just be so much more interesting than “ we need to stop the fighting and save our race”. I wonder how far they would even go to win a war and the consequences to that. Those are stories that I enjoy. I don’t want normal everyday stories.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

Imagine.

The Charr are not humans. Their values and views are very much different from what we accept. If you want to humanize every race, just delete races and have us all play humans. With different races, you can tell incredible stories, you can build the world with conflict, agreements etc. You can tell stories from a different perspective. Humanizing races is so unimaginative and boring and bad for the diversity of the game. If Charr= humans, why even pick between the two? But it seems these days people are much more concerned about social issues in the real world and they want in-game lore to reflect real issues. Games are supposed to be fantasy worlds. They aren’t supposed to reflect real life and real world issues. With the whole thing about “changing the Charr”, the writers are mistaking tyria for planet earth when they should not. Tyria is a place where the writers can make the rules up, sadly they are now making Tyria planet earth B where everyone should work towards world peace and live happily ever after.

Imagine telling a story about a militaristic society dealing with a civil war. That would just be so much more interesting than “ we need to stop the fighting and save our race”. I wonder how far they would even go to win a war and the consequences to that. Those are stories that I enjoy. I don’t want normal everyday stories.

What you're asking for is a normal everyday story. The narrative of doing a civil war that doesn't examine social issues and places the blame for it's failings on flawed individuals, rather then flawed systems, has been written and rewritten since the dawn of time. It's only recently that we've come to accept that the cultures we are part of are, in fact, not perfect.

As for the Charr not being humans? about as early as core game there were stories about how Legion society harmed it's most disadvantaged and peoples dissatisfaction with the Fahrar system, it's just until right now people didn't pay attention to the fact Legion society is sociological, not some hardcoded biology. It would be kind of crazy if they did, it would mean that the Charr as a species can live for nothing but war and in a hypothetical future where the fighting actually did stop they would resort to killing everyone around them to sate their base instincts.

Which as far as notions go, is kinda fucked.

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@Loesh.4697 said:What you're asking for is a normal everyday story. The narrative of doing a civil war that doesn't examine social issues and places the blame for it's failings on flawed individuals, rather then flawed systems, has been written and rewritten since the dawn of time. It's only recently that we've come to accept that the cultures we are part of are, in fact, not perfect.

As for the Charr not being humans? about as early as core game there were stories about how Legion society harmed it's most disadvantaged and peoples dissatisfaction with the Fahrar system, it's just until right now people didn't pay attention to the fact Legion society is sociological, not some hardcoded biology. It would be kind of crazy if they did, it would mean that the Charr as a species can live for nothing but war and in a hypothetical future where the fighting actually did stop they would resort to killing everyone around them to sate their base instincts.

Which as far as notions go, is kinda kitten.Pretty much all this.

I don't know where anyone got the idea that the Charr act the way they do because of biology, but the game has never support that. The Charr's warlike nature has always been sociological, and the game has gone to some efforts, even as far back as vanilla, to point out that the whole system kinda sucks big time, and even many Charr know it.

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@Loesh.4697 said:

@Loesh.4697 said:Imagine thinking that a guy who ran what was essentially a racial ghetto in the Gladiums Canton and executed 'traitors' and deserters in gladiatorial combat at the Bane wasn't always an kitten.

Imagine.

The Charr are not humans. Their values and views are very much different from what we accept. If you want to humanize every race, just delete races and have us all play humans. With different races, you can tell incredible stories, you can build the world with conflict, agreements etc. You can tell stories from a different perspective. Humanizing races is so unimaginative and boring and bad for the diversity of the game. If Charr= humans, why even pick between the two? But it seems these days people are much more concerned about social issues in the real world and they want in-game lore to reflect real issues. Games are supposed to be fantasy worlds. They aren’t supposed to reflect real life and real world issues. With the whole thing about “changing the Charr”, the writers are mistaking tyria for planet earth when they should not. Tyria is a place where the writers can make the rules up, sadly they are now making Tyria planet earth B where everyone should work towards world peace and live happily ever after.

Imagine telling a story about a militaristic society dealing with a civil war. That would just be so much more interesting than “ we need to stop the fighting and save our race”. I wonder how far they would even go to win a war and the consequences to that. Those are stories that I enjoy. I don’t want normal everyday stories.

What you're asking for is a normal everyday story. The narrative of doing a civil war that doesn't examine social issues and places the blame for it's failings on flawed individuals, rather then flawed systems, has been written and rewritten since the dawn of time. It's only recently that we've come to accept that the cultures we are part of are, in fact, not perfect.

As for the Charr not being humans? about as early as core game there were stories about how Legion society harmed it's most disadvantaged and peoples dissatisfaction with the Fahrar system, it's just until
right now
people didn't pay attention to the fact Legion society is sociological, not some hardcoded biology. It would be kind of crazy if they did, it would mean that the Charr as a species can live for nothing but war and in a hypothetical future where the fighting actually did stop they would resort to killing everyone around them to sate their base instincts.

Which as far as notions go,
is kinda kitten.

Flawed from a human perspective. You are looking at the Charr as a human in the year 2019. Our attitudes today came because of our past. We learn from the past and we develop as a result of that. This cannot be said for either Tyria or the Charr.

If a race has been bred for war, they know nothing other than that. And like I said stop making tyria planet earth.

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@Tazer.2157 said:Flawed from a human perspective. You are looking at the Charr as a human in the year 2019. Our attitudes today came because of our past. We learn from the past and we develop as a result of that. This cannot be said for either Tyria or the Charr.

If a race has been bred for war, they know nothing other than that. And like I said stop making tyria planet earth.What? We see clear examples of people from all races learning from their past mistakes in GW2. Tyria isn't some cartoon caricature like Elmer Fudd, or Wile E Coyote, always failing to get Bugs bunny or the Road Runner.

And this has nothing to do with making Tyria like Earth. There are basic fundamentals of existence that would be true on alien worlds as well.

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Probably a bit of an aside for the current conversation, but I feel the story has been really light and underwhelming. I can't say that it's all that different from any other living season but I was really hoping with the new format that it would give them the opportunity to deliver more lore tidbits and story. Instead it's just been formulaic content sprinkled with story as a delivery device. We're in some uncharted territory dealing with an elder dragon that behaves differently from all the rest, after all of this previous development like Kralk and his inner torment driving his actions. Yet we've spent the majority of the story pressing f on npc's, filling bars, and having norn spirits introduced as two liners via adventures/events for the sole purpose of using them to explain a convoluted mastery system or power Braham's spotlight.

Hopefully we can start getting into more interesting plot points now that the Charr conflict seems to have hit its climax. It just makes me wonder what the entire point of the Charr conflict or the frost legion was. I suppose to introduce us to Jormag but Charr seems like an odd choice. Also seems odd that Bangar would be the one harnessing the spirit magic, or the first to do so to awaken Jormag when we've had presumably generations of Svanir that could have achieved the same result. Why Bangar? Now he's just a "voice" and Ryland is a champion with the frost legion troop and dominion forces being diminished/eradicated. So Ryland is pretty much going to just be a standard dragon champion now? Why him?

It just feels like by the end, looking back, it won't really have any payoff or explanation. It just feels like filler. It all just feels really shallow at the moment. We have these 1 hour story segments and so little gets delivered during them. It's just been banter and fffffff in between bar fill-ups and escorts.

Even the vision, which if you want to count as an episode, was essentially just character introduction, banter, and an extended escort event. It's less the fact that the story has been nothing but banter and moving from point a to point b, and more about the fact that little has really moved the story forward outside of the last episode. It's all Jormag being cryptic in whispers and Charr arguing with each other.

I guess this is fine if the saga is meant to be extremely drawn out and all of this foreshadowing from Jormag amounts to anything, but it feels slow and like at some point they'll just be forced to cram everything into one story instance without giving any real detailed development to the story.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Tazer.2157 said:Flawed from a human perspective. You are looking at the Charr as a human in the year 2019. Our attitudes today came because of our past. We learn from the past and we develop as a result of that. This cannot be said for either Tyria or the Charr.

If a race has been bred for war, they know nothing other than that. And like I said stop making tyria planet earth.What? We see clear examples of people from all races learning from their past mistakes in GW2. Tyria isn't some cartoon caricature like Elmer Fudd, or Wile E Coyote, always failing to get Bugs bunny or the Road Runner.

And this has nothing to do with making Tyria like Earth. There are basic fundamentals of existence that would be true on alien worlds as well.

So what fundamentals are you talking about? Even today, human culture is not uniform. Certain things might be perfectly acceptable in some regions while being unacceptable in others. So if we humans are not uniform even after thousands of years of residing in the same planet, I don’t think there are fundamentals that society follows universally. We do not even find some of our past practices acceptable today and what we find acceptable today might not be acceptable 100 years from now. Our environment and history define us.

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@"Bast.7253" said:Probably a bit of an aside for the current conversation, but I feel the story has been really light and underwhelming. I can't say that it's all that different from any other living season but I was really hoping with the new format that it would give them the opportunity to deliver more lore tidbits and story. Instead it's just been formulaic content sprinkled with story as a delivery device. We're in some uncharted territory dealing with an elder dragon that behaves differently from all the rest, after all of this previous development like Kralk and his inner torment driving his actions. Yet we've spent the majority of the story pressing f on npc's, filling bars, and having norn spirits introduced as two liners via adventures/events for the sole purpose of using them to explain a convoluted mastery system or power Braham's spotlight.

Hopefully we can start getting into more interesting plot points now that the Charr conflict seems to have hit its climax. It just makes me wonder what the entire point of the Charr conflict or the frost legion was. I suppose to introduce us to Jormag but Charr seems like an odd choice. Also seems odd that Bangar would be the one harnessing the spirit magic, or the first to do so to awaken Jormag when we've had presumably generations of Svanir that could have achieved the same result. Why Bangar? Now he's just a "voice" and Ryland is a champion with the frost legion troop and dominion forces being diminished/eradicated. So Ryland is pretty much going to just be a standard dragon champion now? Why him?

It just feels like by the end, looking back, it won't really have any payoff or explanation. It just feels like filler. It all just feels really shallow at the moment. We have these 1 hour story segments and so little gets delivered during them. It's just been banter and fffffff in between bar fill-ups and escorts.

Even the vision, which if you want to count as an episode, was essentially just character introduction, banter, and an extended escort event. It's less the fact that the story has been nothing but banter and moving from point a to point b, and more about the fact that little has really moved the story forward outside of the last episode. It's all Jormag being cryptic in whispers and Charr arguing with each other.

I guess this is fine if the saga is meant to be extremely drawn out and all of this foreshadowing from Jormag amounts to anything, but it feels slow and like at some point they'll just be forced to cram everything into one story instance without giving any real detailed development to the story.

This is true. I feel like the whole planning for the war was bad storytelling when there are more interesting stories to tell just as stories regarding the spirits of the north, stories of jormags awakening and the early battles that were fought against Jormag. Instead of all this, we get to sit around a table and discuss war strategies. Boring! I really expected them to use the visions of the past to tell us stories regarding the exodus of the Norn and Kodan south and more about Jormag’s awakening.

I guess they used the Charr so Jormag could get an army which would make it a bigger threat but they could have easily used cinematics to tell us that. We just spend two episodes doing chores for the imperators and have learned absolutely nothing new about either Jormag or the Charr. They are more interested in changing the Charr than the actual the plot of dealing with the elder dragons.

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I feel kind of sorry for some people on these forums who think that a "real man" wouldn't care for his wife & son, a "real woman" wouldn't have emotional conflicts, a "real leader" wouldn't try to win at all costs, a "real enemy" wouldn't succumb to his pride and ego.

So much of this is wrong, and while the Charr may not be Human, they're still written by Humans.

Think some of you really need to just log off and get some fresh air. No matter how much you want everything you see and hear to reflect your worldviews, its not going to, because people are very different from each other, yet also somehow the same. Whining on a video game forum that the writing doesn't reflect what you see in the world & in yourself only serves to drag the writers (and fans) down.

There's a difference between openly discussing a subject and acting like it absolutely should/must be your way. If its really become that bad, and frustrates you so much, maybe its time to just quit playing the game.

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@Tazer.2157 said:

Flawed from a human perspective. You are looking at the Charr as a human in the year 2019. Our attitudes today came because of our past. We learn from the past and we develop as a result of that. This cannot be said for either Tyria or the Charr.

If a race has been bred for war, they know nothing other than that. And like I said stop making tyria planet earth.

The number of societies that would allow a species whose entire existence was devoted only to war survive next to them can be counted on one hand, and for good reason: To do so comes off as both stupid and severely lacking self preservation, and no matter the scenario the group that is made for nothing but killing is generally treated as horrible monsters rather then people because they literally cannot be redeemed. They are hardcoded to kill, and whether the perspective is alien or human that means they are always a threat to the existence of everyone around them.

Putting aside the...troublesome...baggage of making a race who is literally biologically/culturally made to kill other people, which seems like and of itself the basis for a racist and/or Colonialist narrative on other people, it also fundamentally makes the race less interesting because they simply cannot have anymore complex thoughts other then to maim and murder while making the other groups around them either altruistic to the point of stupidity or just stupid period.The logical conclusion to that kind of society is they are ultra-fascists by default and will go out to conquer the rest of the world at some point, why would you ally with that?

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