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*Spoilers* If you could change One moment in the entire story of GW2, what would it be? *Spoilers*


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@"JTGuevara.9018" said:without any hints or implication. Just...bam...Balthazar.

There actually were "hints". It's just that the hints were so freaking vague that you'd only see it in hindsight.

Hint 1: When Lazarus shows up in Episode 1, one of Caudecus' goons wields a Balthazar Shield. Yup, that was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.Hint 2: In Episode 2, "Lazarus" gave players the skill "Spectral Smite" - smite having divine origins, and also relating to Smiting Prayers from GW1, which Balthazar was the patron god for. Yup, that too was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.

There might've been more, but if so, they were probably more obscure.

Still bad though.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:without any hints or implication. Just...bam...Balthazar.

There actually were "hints". It's just that the hints were
so freaking vague
that you'd only see it in hindsight.

Hint 1: When Lazarus shows up in Episode 1, one of Caudecus' goons wields a Balthazar Shield. Yup, that was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.Hint 2: In Episode 2, "Lazarus" gave players the skill "Spectral Smite" - smite having divine origins, and also relating to Smiting Prayers from GW1, which Balthazar was the patron god for. Yup, that too was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.

There might've been more, but if so, they were probably
more
obscure.

Still bad though.

Didn’t the devs also say his reliance on fire magic in ep2 final battle was a foreshadowing of his identity?

Again that just highlights the vagueness

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:without any hints or implication. Just...bam...Balthazar.

There actually were "hints". It's just that the hints were
so freaking vague
that you'd only see it in hindsight.

Hint 1: When Lazarus shows up in Episode 1, one of Caudecus' goons wields a Balthazar Shield. Yup, that was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.Hint 2: In Episode 2, "Lazarus" gave players the skill "Spectral Smite" - smite having divine origins, and also relating to Smiting Prayers from GW1, which Balthazar was the patron god for. Yup, that too was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.

There might've been more, but if so, they were probably
more
obscure.

Still bad though.

I recall that the fact that Lazarus used fire magic in his introductory scene and that there were flames in certain trailers was also suppose to be a hint too.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:without any hints or implication. Just...bam...Balthazar.

There actually were "hints". It's just that the hints were
so freaking vague
that you'd only see it in hindsight.

Hint 1: When Lazarus shows up in Episode 1, one of Caudecus' goons wields a Balthazar Shield. Yup, that was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.Hint 2: In Episode 2, "Lazarus" gave players the skill "Spectral Smite" - smite having divine origins, and also relating to Smiting Prayers from GW1, which Balthazar was the patron god for. Yup, that too was a hint to Lazarus being Balthazar.

There might've been more, but if so, they were probably
more
obscure.

Still bad though.

I recall that the fact that Lazarus used fire magic in his introductory scene and that there were flames in certain trailers was also suppose to be a hint too.

Not that such was a legit hint, given the fact Lazarus was an elementalist.

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I guess I'd just make Jormag smarter. Have turned Charr blow up houses and infrastructure in non-Charr territories to fracture the alliance. Drive wedges between the already fractured races and co-opt the Norn culture. (actually, that should have been done immediately. Minions guiding hunters to game, warning individual Norn about danger, etc.)

But if I could do a big retcon, I'd make the Sylvari-as-dragon-minions thing actually have weight. There's really no reason to trust us post-HoT, especially with other dragons absorbing Mordy's power. Sylvari by all rights should be loyal dragon followers, co-opted by whatever dragon inherited the dream. But AT THE ABSOLUTE LEAST I'd have the other races react like they were. Some weight. Any weight. Just not forgetting such world-changing plot points would be neat.

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Probably Joko's death or Aurene resurrection, LW 4 was the worst in terms of writing, the worst among the not really good to be honest. At least I wish there was a price for Aurene's resurrection, like being corrupted by Joko or something like that, then we should have deal with our only hope to dismissed the Elders dragons, while knowing that Joko could become a greater menace as he could become an elder dragon.It's just too stupid that the immortal and inevitable Palawa joko the god king did not anticipate that we have a dragon (seriously, he even SAW Aurene and complains about the fact that we have a dragon) and decided to fight the pact commander on a terrace, which is just the best way to being killed by something coming from the sky. He ruled over the elonian empire for centuries and succeceed to convince his people that he was a god like entity and died randomly killed by a teenage dragon.I first truly thought that he had planed his death

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@"Finalfreefall.8247" said:I guess I'd just make Jormag smarter. Have turned Charr blow up houses and infrastructure in non-Charr territories to fracture the alliance. Drive wedges between the already fractured races and co-opt the Norn culture. (actually, that should have been done immediately. Minions guiding hunters to game, warning individual Norn about danger, etc.)

Jormag has already been pretty smart. So far its

  • Managed to get the Vigil garrison at jora's Keep to largely kill itself, weakening one of the few bastions of resistance in the far north. Said attack also ended up leading to Almorra's death, removing one of the Pact's greatest military leaders from the field permanently.
  • Likewise managed to manipulate the Kodan in Still Waters Speaking into committing suicide, further weakening any sort of resistance in the far north.
  • Manipulated Bangar into causing a giant civil war among the Charr, fracturing the single largest military force in Tyira(and the one closets to its location). This also led to the complete annihilation of the Drizzlewood communities under Bangar's orders, as well as Jormag getting a large boost in forces from all the Frost Legion converts.

And even with Aurene looking into the Mists we still have no idea what Jormag's real plan is, and no real idea what it wants, and its constantly been planting seeds of doubt on if its really "evil" or getting getting even many of the Commander's main allies to question whats going on. Honestly, Jormag has already proven one of, if not the, most successful of the Elder Dragons in causing rifts, and instability, among the Alliance, and the Commander's allies.

And it already has been fracturing the Alliance, and driving wedges between the races.

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@leguman.6387 said:It's just too stupid that the immortal and inevitable Palawa joko the god king did not anticipate that we have a dragon (seriously, he even SAW Aurene and complains about the fact that we have a dragon) and decided to fight the pact commander on a terrace, which is just the best way to being killed by something coming from the sky. He ruled over the elonian empire for centuries and succeceed to convince his people that he was a god like entity and died randomly killed by a teenage dragon.This ignores that Joko was also shown to be a massive incompetent, even back in Guild Wars 1, and this continued into GW2 before his death

  • He failed to take over Elona the first time because he didn't understand how supply lines worked, allowing Turai Ossa to beat him
  • He failed to free himself from hundreds of years of imprisonment(and his servants weren't any more successful)
  • Even after being freed, he needed to GW1 player to do everything for him, in terms of getting his staff and power base back
  • As per the lore for between GW1 and 2, he only managed to take over Elona because literally no one except a few Sunspears tried to stop him. Everyone in Elona just gave up the moment he dammed the Elon river
  • He was a complete dunce who fell for Balthazar's double cross, getting himself trapped in the Domain of the Lost in the process
  • Even ignoring the Branded and Forged invasions into his land, which his forces proved utterly unable to deal with, he has utterly failed to take over the almost defenseless Amnoon, despite decades of trying. His failed to destroy the Sunspears, who are still making attacks against his holdings. He failed to deal with the Order of Shadows, whose main base is a stone's throw from his palace. He failed to stop the deserters, who maintain outposts and way stations all the way from his territory to Amnoon, and are successfully helping people escape all the time. All of the leaders of his various holdings are shown to be massive idiots, who only got their power because they were yes men, leading to widespread failures of management across his Empire, and stoking large scale civilian unrest that was already reaching a boiling point before the Commander even got there.

Joko is a moron, of monumental proportions. He only got as far as he did because no one tired to stop him, and his hold over Elona has been nothing but shaky and fractured. His whole empire was a house of cards that was already collapsing before the player arrived. Even if the Commander had never gone to Elona, Joko would have fallen in the next 10-20 years anyways because he has no idea how to manage anything.

Joko's sudden death to Aurene makes perfect sense, Joko is an overconfident idiot. Also, how would he know Aurene could unbound his immortality magic?

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

  • He failed to take over Elona the first time because he didn't understand how supply lines worked, allowing Turai Ossa to beat himThat defeat wasn't due to supply lines, but because Turai Ossa led a last-ditch effort of a tactical strike, and challenged Joko to a one-on-one, feeding to the lich's ego. The failing for Joko here was agreeing to a one-on-one in a position he couldn't flee from with zero preparation.

Something he didn't do twice.

  • Even after being freed, he needed to GW1 player to do everything for him, in terms of getting his staff and power base backIt was less that he needed the Hero to do everything for him, and more that the Hero needed something from Joko so he saw reason to pass the job on to others - if the Hero failed, Joko could just raise them as an awakened and gain a powerful minion, if they succeed, he had something he needed to do done without lifting a finger. This is the opposite of incompetent.

Even ignoring the Branded and Forged invasions into his land, which his forces proved utterly unable to deal with,To be fair, the Awakened couldn't deal with the Forged because as their invasion began, Joko disappeared. This left them with confused proper leadership, because moments before his disappearance, Joko was working with Balthazar. The marshals never knew of the betrayal, so in their fanatcism / brainwashing, they weren't sure if the Forged attacking was all part of some elaborate plan of Joko's or legitimate enemies at first.

It's a case of Joko's designs for Elona and his Awakened armies biting him in the ass.

he has utterly failed to take over the almost defenseless Amnoon, despite decades of trying.He never tried, though. At least, I've seen zero evidence suggesting that he had armies assault Amnoon. The only known attempt to conquer Amnoon was in the PoF storyline with the alliance. Other than that, all he's done was stop people from fleeing Elona to Amnoon.

His failed to destroy the Sunspears, who are still making attacks against his holdings. He failed to deal with the Order of Shadows, whose main base is a stone's throw from his palace. He failed to stop the deserters, who maintain outposts and way stations all the way from his territory to Amnoon, and are successfully helping people escape all the time.To be fair to him here, though, what Sunspears remain are outcasts and wanderers until the events of PoF. There's barely a dozen Sunspears by the time of PoF, hence why when Amnoon allies with Sunspears only one shows up, only the actions of Balthazar and the branded ruining the indoctrination enough for them to begin recruiting again in fuller force. And it's very hard to utterly and completely wipe a group out. I mean, hell, after the events of WW2 and all the post-war attempts to track them down, we still got Nazi remnants here and there in the world.

As to Order of Shadows and deserters - outside of the Bone Wall and having troops deal with it without any proper forces, he doesn't seem to have ever actually tried. Hard to accurately call someone incompetent for failing to do something they didn't bother to put effort into.

All of the leaders of his various holdings are shown to be massive idiots, who only got their power because they were yes men, leading to widespread failures of management across his Empire, and stoking large scale civilian unrest that was already reaching a boiling point before the Commander even got there.The boiling point was caused because of the Forged, who were able to take control because of their confusion over Joko's disappearance as said above. The incompetence was also in part intentional design because Joko wanted to ensure the people were never prosperous unless they were "yes men", competent yes men or not, so as to embed desire to worship Joko into the culture.

Like with the Awakened army, just another intentional design that worked for 100 years, but once he disappeared for a fee weeks/months, it bit him in the ass, hard.

Not denying that Joko's an over-competent fool, just not as extreme of one in the latter half of that phrase than you make out.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:That defeat wasn't due to supply lines, but because Turai Ossa led a last-ditch effort of a tactical strike, and challenged Joko to a one-on-one, feeding to the lich's ego. The failing for Joko here was agreeing to a one-on-one in a position he couldn't flee from with zero preparation.

Something he didn't do twice.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tihark_OrchardPrince Ahmtur the Mighty: "The flaw in Palawa Joko's invasion of Vabbi was that he outran his supply lines. Once Turai Ossa flanked him, Palawa's forces were doomed."Turai Ossa's plan of flanking Joko only work because Joko had outran his supply lines. Him damming the river Elon was a means to give him the most precious of resources, water, so that wouldn't happen again.

It was less that he needed the Hero to do everything for him, and more that the Hero needed something from Joko so he saw reason to pass the job on to others - if the Hero failed, Joko could just raise them as an awakened and gain a powerful minion, if they succeed, he had something he needed to do done without lifting a finger. This is the opposite of incompetent.Joko had already given up his ace, the secret to riding the Wurms, before asking the player to do it. The player, likewise, had no reason to do it given that Joko was obviously evil. That we did is only because RPG characters are idiots, and will do anything, even if its against their own interest. Unless Joko was breaking the 4th wall, and knew he was in a game, he really had no reason to believe the player would do it. Also, if the player died in their attempt to get Joko's staff back, that would still leave him without a staff, and thus, unable to control his former minions, meaning he wouldn't be able to get close enough to us to raise us. He would gain nothing if we failed.

To be fair, the Awakened couldn't deal with the Forged because as their invasion began, Joko disappeared. This left them with confused proper leadership, because moments before his disappearance, Joko was working with Balthazar. The marshals never knew of the betrayal, so in their fanatcism / brainwashing, they weren't sure if the Forged attacking was all part of some elaborate plan of Joko's or legitimate enemies at first.Which is itself incompetence. Having yes men who follow your every word can be helpful, but only an idiot makes them so stupid they can't tell if they have been obviously betrayed.

He never tried, though. At least, I've seen zero evidence suggesting that he had armies assault Amnoon. The only known attempt to conquer Amnoon was in the PoF storyline with the alliance. Other than that, all he's done was stop people from fleeing Elona to Amnoon.According to Shadi, Joko raised Zhelon Ossa, and made him take up post where he was, to continue Joko's blockade of Amnoon until Amnoon gave in to his demands. And Zhelon has been there since Joko took over Elona. Hes been trying for like a 100+years to whittle them down, and it really isn't working. Hence why Amnoon only caves if we tell them too, but are equally fine if they don't side with Joko.

To be fair to him here, though, what Sunspears remain are outcasts and wanderers until the events of PoF. There's barely a dozen Sunspears by the time of PoF, hence why when Amnoon allies with Sunspears only one shows up, only the actions of Balthazar and the branded ruining the indoctrination enough for them to begin recruiting again in fuller force. And it's very hard to utterly and completely wipe a group out. I mean, hell, after the events of WW2 and all the post-war attempts to track them down, we still got kitten remnants here and there in the world.Actually, several Sunspears take up position at Amnoon's major exists, which backed confirmed by NPC dialog from the civilians who mention several(but not a lot) showed up. On top of them, we have the named Sunspears we recruit for the griffon sanctuary base, and in Daybreak we learn that the pupil(Zaeim) of one of these Suspears(Kitur) had left to try to free Istan before the events of PoF. When we reach Istan we see he has already set up a hidden base in the Astralarium, with at like 25 Sunspears/recruits. There's actually like three or four dozen Sunspears by the time PoF starts, mostly in Istan, but also spread throughout northern Elona and the Desert.

As to Order of Shadows and deserters - outside of the Bone Wall and having troops deal with it without any proper forces, he doesn't seem to have ever actually tried. Hard to accurately call someone incompetent for failing to do something they didn't bother to put effort into.Its incompetence to not actively try to dismantle organizations and systems that actively oppose your will. Especially a group as organized as the Order of Shadows, who planned to topple Joko and put Kossan up as the hero to unite Elona. The Order of Shadows was planning to take him down in the next decade or so, assuming Joko's empire didn't naturally collapse before then anyways.

The boiling point was caused because of the Forged, who were able to take control because of their confusion over Joko's disappearance as said above. The incompetence was also in part intentional design because Joko wanted to ensure the people were never prosperous unless they were "yes men", competent yes men or not, so as to embed desire to worship Joko into the culture.Even if the Forged hadn't attacked, systemic oppression and poverty always leads to rebellious elements. All one has to do is look at real world history for that. Even if it takes generations, people eventually have enough of it, and rebel. the forged may have been the trigger for it happening right then, but even if the Forged never existed, it would have still happened because Joko is just too dumb to keep his people JUST content enough to not be bothered by him being an egomaniac who treats everyone like crap.

joko is just monumentally bad at everything. Its his running gag.

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@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:Joko had already given up his ace, the secret to riding the Wurms, before asking the player to do it. The player, likewise, had no reason to do it given that Joko was obviously evil. That we did is only because RPG characters are idiots, and will do anything, even if its against their own interest. Unless Joko was breaking the 4th wall, and knew he was in a game, he really had no reason to believe the player would do it. Also, if the player died in their attempt to get Joko's staff back, that would still leave him without a staff, and thus, unable to control his former minions, meaning he wouldn't be able to get close enough to us to raise us. He would gain nothing if we failed.Joko had plenty reason to believe the Hero would clear out the Bone Palace - because a) Varesh might be there, and b) it'd serve them as a base of operation (Joko willing) to find and fight Varesh in the Desolation. Which is fairly well explained in A Deal's a Deal - taking the Bone Palace from Varesh' troops served both Joko's and the Hero's causes. Joko continued helping because, well, Nightfall was against his benefit. And the PC would be the fool to turn down help.

The PC was the fool for not taking care of Joko after finishing Abaddon, but "honoring deals" and all that foolishness.

He never tried, though. At least, I've seen zero evidence suggesting that he had armies assault Amnoon. The only known attempt to conquer Amnoon was in the PoF storyline with the alliance. Other than that, all he's done was stop people from fleeing Elona to Amnoon.According to Shadi, Joko raised Zhelon Ossa, and made him take up post where he was, to continue Joko's blockade of Amnoon until Amnoon gave in to his demands. And Zhelon has been there since Joko took over Elona. Hes been trying for like a 100+years to whittle them down, and it really isn't working. Hence why Amnoon only caves if we tell them too, but are equally fine if they don't side with Joko.

Which only proves my point, actually. He was blockading Amnoon from Elona, but never launched an actual assault on the city. If he did, he probably would have won fairly easily. Whether he didn't because of Zhaitan's forces on Elona's northern border, or Joko just didn't care enough, is another matter.

Actually, several Sunspears take up position at Amnoon's major exists, which backed confirmed by NPC dialog from the civilians who mention several(but not a lot) showed up. On top of them, we have the named Sunspears we recruit for the griffon sanctuary base, and in Daybreak we learn that the pupil(Zaeim) of one of these Suspears(Kitur) had left to try to free Istan before the events of PoF. When we reach Istan we see he has already set up a hidden base in the Astralarium, with at like 25 Sunspears/recruits. There's actually like three or four dozen Sunspears by the time PoF starts, mostly in Istan, but also spread throughout northern Elona and the Desert.

In Small Victory, there's only two Sunspear NPCs - one generically named one (which shows up in Eye of the Brandstorm), and Second Spear Nayrim. The Commander even comments on this a bit - saying "A Sunspear in public". The griffon sanctuary only has 5 Sunspears (and non-Sunspear "Seekers") - one per map - show up. Six if you count Tahlkora, but I'm not due to her immobile and unknown-to-the-world state. And Zaeim's recruitment took force thanks to the events of PoF, with Joko's disappearance and Balthazar's rampage. So like I said, "there's barely a dozen Sunspears by the time of PoF". 6(7) named Sunspears, and 1 unnamed sunspear. But the time of Daybreak, we got a few dozen, thanks specifically to the events of Path of Fire.

But Path of Fire marks the downturn of Joko's reign - or rather, the moments between Flashpoint and Path of Fire, when Joko went missing and Balthazar began his assault on the desert. Between Flashpoint and Daybreak, the Sunspear forces went from 7 confirmed members to 30-ish confirmed members, and slowly grew over the course of Season 4 (until many Sunspears merged into the Order of the Crystal Bloom, leaving the Sunspear's actual numbers unknown again).

Even if the Forged hadn't attacked, systemic oppression and poverty always leads to rebellious elements. All one has to do is look at real world history for that. Even if it takes generations, people eventually have enough of it, and rebel.Of course, we're fully aware of this. But systematic oppression and poverty was never actually done in Thyria's human history until Joko's conquest of Elona. He was the first to do this, thus no studies to tell him it's a bad idea. The closest we get is Mad King Thorn's reign, but that was largely caused by long droughts and famines making non-noble life worse. And of course, only lasted a generation - which Joko quickly surpassed, and he controlled the droughts and famines via dams, so if he ever thought the people were on edge of revolt, he could have (theoretically) lessened it as a "blessing by the benevolent Joko".

Point being, Joko was a bit of a pioneer in the realm of despotism, and just because we beyond the 4th wall know that was doomed to eventually fail, Joko couldn't know for certainty. Add in a spice of indeed his prevalent egoism, and the ability to control droughts and famines at will, and the ability to Awakened the dead "faithful" to ease the fear of death in his people, and you have a system that's bound to last longer than any real world equivalent, with a person who cannot know the system will eventually falter regardless.

And in truth, without the Forged or Branded (or Commander), Joko's system might have lasted a few centuries longer. Since all he'd have to do when the people got close to the breaking, was open the dam a bit and Awaken some untimely demises and call such blessings and favors. The people were so indoctrinated that they'd fool-heartedly believe such.

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Don't think I can narrow it down to just one moment, but several of importance have already been added. But it's something about the writing and the direction they choose to go over and over.

When something ends on a cliff-hanger you have all these great fan theories in the Lore section and on reddit, and everyone's like, "oh they wouldn't choose option A because that's just obvious / poor and makes little sense", and lo and behold with the next episode, it's actually what happens.

Exemplified with most recently with "No Quarters"; we've just had Steel and Fire setup this great back story for the Steel Warband and its characters, and woop, all A Song of Ice and Fire-like, they're all killed off in the next episode...

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@"Dondarrion.2748" said:Don't think I can narrow it down to just one moment, but several of importance have already been added. But it's something about the writing and the direction they choose to go over and over.

When something ends on a cliff-hanger you have all these great fan theories in the Lore section and on reddit, and everyone's like, "oh they wouldn't choose option A because that's just obvious / poor and makes little sense", and lo and behold with the next episode, it's actually what happens.

Exemplified with most recently with "No Quarters"; we've just had Steel and Fire setup this great back story for the Steel Warband and its characters, and woop, all A Song of Ice and Fire-like, they're all killed off in the next episode...Most fan theories I see posted in the lore section make zero sense, and would never happen as they don't follow the basics of good writing.

The Steel Warband is a perfect example of this. If the Steel Warband, outside of Ryland, was ever meant to be important then they would have been introduced alongside Ryland back in the prologue. But they weren't, they were introduced long after, in a flashback episode, and got JUST enough characterization to make you see them a characters, but just little enough that there wasn't much to continue to expand on in later episodes. They would have never been this continuing antagonist group that hounded the Commander all season, as some people speculated. These guys were normal Charr, far below the power of things the Commander has long since gown accustomed to killing with ease. This is also the "icebrood Saga" not the Steel Warband Saga.

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